What do you guys think about ME3's Indoctrination Theory?

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thejunglegod

Golden Member
Feb 12, 2012
1,358
36
91
Whatever happens, this is history in the making and will be talked about for years from now. "All your history are belong to us" will definitely be including this if they redo "Bioware" in the year 2020.
:)
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
7,775
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Clearly, the theory that one company poisons everything it ever touches is far more plausible than a group of writers doing something creative and somewhat daring in this day and age of viral marketing.

It absolutely is in this case. Considering they changed writing teams and got bought by EA it's EXTREMELY likely.
 

epidemis

Senior member
Jun 6, 2007
794
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3. I think KOTOR had something similar.

It really did, but that wasn't a subtle twist.

There's no question whether Shepard was indoctrinated, the Illusive man says so much at the end (forcing your hand trying to shoot anderson). I also assumed that's what the dream scenes implied, but I'm sceptical of the interpretation that the ending were all a dream.
 
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Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
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It really did, but that wasn't a subtle twist.

There's no question whether Shepard was indoctrinated, the Illusive man says so much at the end (forcing your hand trying to shoot anderson). I also assumed that's what the dream scenes implied, but I'm sceptical of the interpretation that the ending were all a dream.

The indoctrination ending seems to make a lot of sense, and I'm betting that:
1. The ending was written out by one guy.
2. Only a small part of the team was privy to the true ending, so that it wouldn't leak.
3. They will be releasing free DLC with the 'real ending'. Heck, Fallout 3 had a paid real ending released.

Or the ending is just really really crappy. Come on, not even a final boss?
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
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Indoctrination ending can make sense but it is purely by coincidence that this happened. Mainly because the writing at the end was so terrible and full of plot holes that people had to really dig into it to connect some sort of more plausible ending together.
 

darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
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Indoctrination ending can make sense but it is purely by coincidence that this happened. Mainly because the writing at the end was so terrible and full of plot holes that people had to really dig into it to connect some sort of more plausible ending together.

This is the other problem lol, even if the plan all along had been to create a 'false' ending in game followed by a 'true' ending of sorts, everyone will just end up bitching about how they 'hijacked the idea to save face' or something like that. People here are just so full of venom that they turn what could be an interesting event into a predestined lose-lose scenario.
 

Gheris

Senior member
Oct 24, 2005
305
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How do you know your ending is awful? When the fans piece together something totally different that your busted writing team never intended. If indoctrination theory is false....well then.....the fans have a leg up on the writers.
 

Gheris

Senior member
Oct 24, 2005
305
0
0
This is the other problem lol, even if the plan all along had been to create a 'false' ending in game followed by a 'true' ending of sorts, everyone will just end up bitching about how they 'hijacked the idea to save face' or something like that. People here are just so full of venom that they turn what could be an interesting event into a predestined lose-lose scenario.

Quick question. Did you think Shep was being indoctrinated the whole time?
 

MetalMat

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
9,687
36
91
Even if this is true, why would they do this?

So many people were looking forward to an ending that actually meant something with some closure and instead they get 3 open ended vague endings that are pretty much the exact same. The fact that people would have to go on the internet and investigate all the "clues" they left is just a complete fail.

Reminds me of Lost, it was a great show but after going through that debacle of a cop-out ending I can't recommend anyone get started watching them just to suffer through that last season.
 

EDUSAN

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2012
1,358
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i didnt think the ending was THAT bad when i played it, i did find it confusing.

i understand people wanting to see all their effort during all 3 games to be set on a satisfying ending.

I (and for sure everyone) had accepted that Shepard was going to die in this epic quest to save the universe, but when it finally happened it looked like not epicly enough... if i would have known that i was to unite with the reapers and kill al organic life, then i wouldnt had defeated saren in the 1st place

I dont like the indoctrination theory, but i cant argue that it looks like the best explanation there is to all that messy ending, that doesnt mean its good though.

the game until the end was really epic though, i loved the game. Shepard was resolving conflicts between alien races that were held for centuries in order to defeat the reapers.
The asari hiddening a beacon and using its power to place themselves as a powerful race was good too.
all these alien races types of reapers were pretty cool too, added a lot of variety to the enemies
learning that the crucible was not a weapon made by the protheans but its plans were made by different races at every cycle was SO EPIC, it was a great shock for me indeed (almost as finding out that the citadel was infact the way the reapers used to start the cycle)

everything was going pretty good upto there, the tension and epicness were increasing.... open battle on earth with the reapers, the radio comments of the universe forces being annihilated, it was all good

then it felt like they didnt know how to end it, that is the feeling everyone gets of the ending
 
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DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
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If the writers had all contributed, I think they would've found a good ending that was as epic as ME3 was before the end. However, it came down to one terrible writer wanting it his way and one can see how shit his creativity and writing is. Hopefully EA rectifies this by firing that person and going back to the group consensus that made the game great.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
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If the writers had all contributed, I think they would've found a good ending that was as epic as ME3 was before the end. However, it came down to one terrible writer wanting it his way and one can see how shit his creativity and writing is. Hopefully EA rectifies this by firing that person and going back to the group consensus that made the game great.

I keep seeing people refer to this. What is the source?
 

EDUSAN

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2012
1,358
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yeah, final boss would not have any sense... they never show any kind of "chief" in the reapers...

all the final part was some kind of "boss fight" when you were trying to shoot the laser at the reaper while being overwhelmed by enemies...
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
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Interesting video and ideas

I hope at least that we get more Mass Effect as the twitter update suggests
 

Gheris

Senior member
Oct 24, 2005
305
0
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There was a final boss and his name was marauder shields

I was going to say a resonable ending was the final boss, however the ending is rigged and your destined to lose every time..........

*car salesman voice* "Unless you buy the new and improved ME3 ending, just $9.99 via DLC! Remember folks, just Shep it!" In game info-mercial coming soon.
 

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,202
216
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Actually, they address this exactly in the Final Hours app. They felt an end boss would have been trite....I kind of agree.

Had they kept the one they intended to use, then yes I agree (they wanted to use the Illusive Man). The problem is exactly that in my opinion, The Illusive Man being the one they wanted to use to represent or to be the final boss.

They should have used Harbinger instead, there was enough foreshadowing about "him" in ME2. In fact, Harbinger controlled the Collectors, directed them to hire the Shadow Broker to find Shepard's body (Mass Effect: Redemption), so Harbinger had "interests" for Shepard, either his genetic material or "something else". By ME3's end it becomes clear enough that the ultimate goal for the Illusive Man was to control the Reapers, and if possible, to control Shepard, which he manages to do to some extent during the end (when Illusive Man "forces" Shepard to shoot at Anderson's gut). But beyond merely controlling Shepard the danger in Illusive Man was barely existent, since again at the end we learn from that SpaceBrat entity thing that he (Illusive Man) was already being controlled, which we all suspected at some point (that he was being indoctrinated, similarly to how Saren was, which is why via proper dialog branches you can provoke his suicide when he realizes that he was indoctrinated all that time).

So, BioWare wanted to use the Illusive Man as a final boss, even though they themselves knew that he was going to be armless if you managed to talk him down like we did against Saren. It would only be right after his "death" that his body would be taken control of (probably by Harbinger) and transformed into some Reaper-Illusive Man hybrid machine. That I agree would have sucked, or would have seemed predictable... BUT... it would have been better than what we current have in my opinion. With this said however I still think that a final confrontation against Harbinger itself would have been better, and of course I'm not referring to Shepard punching Harby's legs on Earth. I'm thinking about assigning War Assets at some point to fight against Harbinger, probably ending with the Normandy firing the long-calibrated Thanix cannon that happens to effectively pierce a Collector ship from one end to the other, which might have dealt a "final blow" against Harbinger, provided that the battle against him was able to weaken him down enough by using War Assets, such as Hammer team on the ground or Sword team ships firing at Harbinger from orbit.

In any case, having a final boss in the exact form that BioWare originally planned would have sucked overall. They still managed to come up with something worse though, I would have preferred that fight against a transformed Illusive Man over talking to that little kid entity thing. But as far as an actual boss goes I would have chosen Harbinger. And, as a side note, Harbinger's voice actor was used for ME3 (Keith Szarabajka), he voiced the dying Batarian at the Batarian refugee camp on the Citadel. They had Harbinger's voice actor and they didn't bother using him to voice a single line for Harbinger anywhere during the whole game's duration.
 
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thejunglegod

Golden Member
Feb 12, 2012
1,358
36
91
But as far as an actual boss goes I would have chosen Harbinger.

+1
To tell you the truth i was really excited when i saw Harbinger blasting away at the end and i thought, wow i get to face Harbinger. I wondered what the fuss was all about and how this is supposed to be a bad ending.

Then the screen went white and i saw my teammates Javik & James lying dead in front of me. i choked and went WOW. Fuck, i thought the last Prothean would have some sort of vital role in the end. Nope. So all Javik has done after staying alive for 50,000 years is being a smart mouth. Damn!!!! such a cool character wasted.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
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These were epic character arc endings in ME3 that I got.. which was then spoiled by the game ending

Grunt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9z2TkVNWlM

Mordin/Wrex/Genophage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrH0Lda0Hds&feature=relmfu

Thane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGOVP_mNXAA&feature=relmfu

Tali/Legion/Geth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa6WH90xVc&feature=relmfu




This is why all the bitching about the writers is tossed out the window. The entire game was a wrap up to the story lines we played through. The cure for the Genophage and bringing the Quarians back to Rannoch and the Legion sacrifice were EPIC. Amazing story telling and conclusions to those story arcs.

So I don't know WTF happened at the end of ME3. I don't know if it was EA pushing them for DLC, or a rushed release schedule or what. I hope they fix it with the free DLC because it was absolutely overshadowed by what Bioware did already within ME3!

The wrapup and conclusions for the epic stories of the Krogan, Quarians, Thane, the Geth was amazing. I wanted to see that same care and finality given to the humans and Turians. I wanted to see the fleet shredding those Reapers. I wanted my decisions to mean something. I wanted to see all those damn war assets mean something. I wanted to keep fighting back and not get suckered into this lame ass fucking Matrix style ending.

So I'm going to watch the Krogan get cured of the Genophage again and Mordin's sacrifice to know what Bioware is capable of and try to forget the shit they passed off as an ending to one of the best new video game franchises in a very long time.
 

Dahak

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2000
3,752
25
91
This is why all the bitching about the writers is tossed out the window. The entire game was a wrap up to the story lines we played through. The cure for the Genophage and bringing the Quarians back to Rannoch and the Legion sacrifice were EPIC. Amazing story telling and conclusions to those story arcs.

So I don't know WTF happened at the end of ME3. I don't know if it was EA pushing them for DLC, or a rushed release schedule or what. I hope they fix it with the free DLC because it was absolutely overshadowed by what Bioware did already within ME3!

The wrapup and conclusions for the epic stories of the Krogan, Quarians, Thane, the Geth was amazing. I wanted to see that same care and finality given to the humans and Turians. I wanted to see the fleet shredding those Reapers. I wanted my decisions to mean something. I wanted to see all those damn war assets mean something. I wanted to keep fighting back and not get suckered into this lame ass fucking Matrix style ending.

So I'm going to watch the Krogan get cured of the Genophage again and Mordin's sacrifice to know what Bioware is capable of and try to forget the shit they passed off as an ending to one of the best new video game franchises in a very long time.

I feel the same way. throughout the game we get nice conclusions to the story arcs for some of the characters / plots but not others

But my thoughts on the Theory is one of 2 things,

1) I am amazed at all the thought and effort that the fans put into it and am partially like the idea except for the possibility of 2)

2) it could be called a cop out, the reasons as to why dont matter, but it feels as a cop out. like, oh you guys figured it out, we rushed the ending and put this in its place just to fix it later

I guess it will all depend on how the free dlc will fix it.