WHat do you feel about the state of the airline industry?

[rudder]

CNN story

On hand hand you have an experienced Capt. Sully saving 150 people and an relatively inexperienced crew killing 50+ in Buffalo (at least until we hear the final NTSB report). However I think if you look back at historical crash data you may see just as many fatal flights involving experienced flight crews.

Capt. Sully complains that his salary has been cut 40% of the last few years. but I think that is U.S. Airways fault, not the whole airline industry as a whole. A decade ago U.S. Airways had the highest salary average among U.S. airlines.

But really the downfall of the airlines came when they all decided (except for southwest) to copy fedex and UPS and use the hub and spoke system.... which is efficient for boxes, not so much for people and millions of dollars in unearned revenue when your planes are sitting on the tarmac. Also (with the exception of Southwest) most airlines made fat profits on the last minute business traveler. This really killed many airlines during the last years of the Clinton administration and the recession causing businesses to cut back on expenses.

Here is a July 2008 profile of salaries:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.../gid,64/Itemid,85.html

Keep in mind this is per hour. The guaranteed hours per month are the last column on the right.

I just thing is up because to me it sounds like someone is lobbying for more airline bailout money now.

Would you pursue a career as an airline pilot that offered a salary of $100,000 (first year captain) to be responsible for 150 peoples lives + your crew?

 

[frostedflakes]

I'm calling it, airline bailout within two months.

 

[StageLeft]

I don't know that we need "Captain Sully" opining on airline financials, so I will. They are screwed. However, you should book a ticket. I cannot believe what I paid for some tickets for a flight this coming September. Bought tickets a few weeks back at less than half their typical cost. My parents paid about 2/3rd typical cost on some recently, too. Airlines are so expensive and a great place to cut one's spending, whether it's vacation or a business.

Would you pursue a career as an airline pilot that offered a salary of $100,000 (first year captain) to be responsible for 150 peoples lives + your crew?

Personally, yes, I would. And why not? It's very safe and chances are if I kill them all I'm dead, too, so as long as I have decent confidence in my abilities it's not like when I kill them their families will sue me. Being an airline pilot is still a very nice job if you can make it into one of these airlines flying a larger plane.

 

[ayabe]

Pilots don't make 100,000 to start, not even close.

"Anyway, without breaking topic, let's segue now over to MarketWatch.com, where columnist Chris Pummer has put together a list of the "Ten Most Overpaid Jobs in the U.S."

Yeah, you know where this is going. "Major airline pilots" makes the list at No. 9.

"While American and United pilots recently took pay cuts," Pummer begins, "senior captains earn as much as $250,000 a year at Delta, and their counterparts at other major airlines still earn about $150,000 to $215,000 ... for a job that technology has made almost fully automated."

I'm not sure which part of that is more egregious, the salary examples or the nonsense about automation. It's a double whammy of distorted information.

For the record, pilots at Delta suffered pay and benefit slashes on a par with those at their competitors, so I don't understand his insinuation that they are somehow in a league alone. Meanwhile, singling out the top-end salary of a few "senior captains" means almost nothing in a field of many thousands of pilots. Pummer neglects to mention that only a small fraction of them actually earn such wages and usually do so only for a short time prior to retirement. A large percentage of pilots work for many years making subpar pay in a highly unstable industry before getting the chance, later in their careers, to bring home a respectable salary.

I know, we've been through all of this before, but there's no end to allegations like Pummer's. They keep coming and coming.

My own story is fairly typical. I have been a professional pilot, beginning as a flight instructor, since 1987. Only once have I made more than $60,000 in a year, and often it has been substantially less. I've been through two airline bankruptcies, two furloughs and one complete company shutdown. (When changing carriers, salary is not transferable; one begins at the bottom again at probationary pay and benefits. At a major, that's about $30,000. At a regional, it's often under $20,000.) Things are better now, and assuming my current employer remains stable and solvent in the years ahead (by no means a sure thing), I will be lucky enough to enjoy a six-figure income. Will that make me "overpaid"?

To his credit, Pummer does point out that major-carrier pilots earn several times what their counterparts do at the regional airlines (idea for a follow-up column: "Ten Most Underpaid Jobs in U.S."), but he also states that senior pilots at low-fare companies like "JetBlue and Southwest make up to 40 percent less."

Well, they do and they don't. At United, for example, a captain of average seniority flying domestically on a narrow-body jet brings home less than an equivalent captain at Southwest or JetBlue. Granted, a United 747 captain, flying much larger equipment to cities in Asia and Europe, earns a good deal more, but there is no comparable position at Southwest or JetBlue.

But never mind salary figures for a moment. Let's pretend you're traveling from Paris to New York on an airline whose fares are dirt cheap, but whose pilots are compensated by voluntary passenger donations. A cup is passed around at the conclusion of each flight. How much is safe transport across the ocean worth to you?

In practice, it's worth about six bucks. Averaging the pay rates of the biggest airlines, the typical 777 captain makes about $190 an hour. Between Paris and New York, this captain will transport 250 passengers on a flight lasting eight hours. That hashes out to a contribution of just over $6 per passenger. The captain gets $6 of your $450 ticket. The first officer, as little as $3.

Now let's try a regional. A fifth-year CRJ-900 captain at Mesa Airlines (dba US Airways Express and other affiliations) earns $69 per flight hour. His plane has 80 seats. For a two-hour flight, you've given him $1.72. A new first officer at Mesa makes $19 an hour. On that same trip, he collects all of 47 cents from each customer.

For the year, that first officer's salary will be roughly $18,000. Don't let those hourly rates mislead you. Sixty-nine bucks an hour sounds pretty good, until you remember that crews are paid only for the time they actually fly, not the time spent on duty, at the airport preparing for departure, laying over in hotels, etc. A pilot might be on assignment for as many as 300 hours in a given month, but the average pay credit is in the vicinity of 75. This disparity is what spawns those foolish contentions that pilots "work" far less than the typical full-time employee. "

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[rudder]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Pilots don't make 100,000 to start, not even close.

[/L]

I know. That is why I put in that as the salary for a first year captain at U.S. Airways. No major airline will hire you right into a captain seat anymore.

My first pilot job was as a flight engineer on a Boeing 727. $42 per hour. Which came out to about $29K my first year. When I made first office it got bumped to $45 (and a lot less work !

And I was a flight instructor in college making $20/hour (early 90's). Of course after a full day of Saturday flying it came out to about $4.25/hour.

One of the reasons I got out of it was because the time away from home. I almost missed my first Christmas with my new wife... left the day after Thanksgiving and got home with a wad of cash Christmas eve.

My point of this thread is just the thought of another airline buyout. Southwest is even hurting, but they will survive without any bailout. Will the U.S. taxpayer bail out another industry that is poorly run?

 

[LTC8K6]

Sully lives in a very expensive area in Ca.

If he'd move, he'd have a lot more loose change.

 

[Fear No Evil]

I hate to sound like an asshole. But suck it up, or quit. What does he want? Yeah they have a lot of responsibility.. but so does the soldier taking fire in Iraq, and they make a lot less than him. So does the police officer in LA, etc. Does he want the government to come in and start setting standards for his salary? The market just can't afford to pay what they used to for salaries, and there must be enough qualified pilots because we don't have many accidents and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of flights right now.

I realize he feels he deserves a lot more.. and he probably does.. and so do a lot of other jobs in this country that are underpaid. But his only option as I see it is to quit and find another line of work that pays more. If there becomes a shortage of pilots, salaries will go up, if we start seeing a bunch of accidents, salaries for better ones will go up. I guess I don't see what complaining about it is going to accomplish.. its not like the airlines are flush with cash right now and they are just not giving it to their employees.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
.

I realize he feels he deserves a lot more.. and he probably does.. and so do a lot of other jobs in this country that are underpaid. But his only option as I see it is to quit and find another line of work that pays more. .

A Southwest captain will earn $70 per hour more than an comparable U.S. Airways pilot. He should be bitching at U.S. Airways management. Southwest runs a lot more efficient operation. nothing magical about them... but it is not unheard of for a southwest pilot to sling some luggage to get out on time.