What do you define as "middle class"?

[McLovin]

Middle class is when you have to give up your sweet chocolate to the landlord to pay the rent.

 

[Virge_]

Relevant: http://www.zachary-dombroski.com/blog/2015/2/18/nobody-understands-the-middle-class

"In the United States, the median household income, the real middle, is $51,939, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. For simplicity, let's divide the world into three classes, lower, middle and upper, based on percentile. We can assume that the lower class would represent the lowest 25 percent, the middle class would represent the 25th - 75th percentile and the upper class would represent the 75th - 100th percentile. That would make the income range for middle class approximately $25,000 - $90,000. The middle 50% of all Americans fall into this range, and so this is the middle class. Simple."

 

[monkeydelmagico]

When I got married in South Korea I rented one room from a family. To heat the room you had to buy charcoal shaped into round cylinders with holes. .

Well thank goodness is wasn't North Korea otherwise you would have to mine the charcoal for those upper crust South Korean types living in the lap of luxury with heat and running water.

OT: OP's friend is not in touch with reality. A 3/4 mil bonus is damn far from being middle class.

 

[edro]

Since the question is "What do YOU define...", I will give my opinion.

The middle class (in the midwest) works 35-45 hours a week and makes between $50-200k household income for a married couple.

 

[JM Aggie08]

These threads are so ridiculous. The only person who has any grasp on reality is Engineer.

Here's a hint - salary demographics, mark the fat point of the bell curve. There's your middle class. I'll give you a hint - it's below the $100k line. The average household income in the USA is still in the $50k range. NYC income is an outlier.


Median household income, 2009-2013 $53,046 ( source: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html )

The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2014 that:

- U.S. real (inflation adjusted) median household income was $51,939 in 2013 versus $51,759 in 2012, statistically unchanged. The 2011 level was $51,842 and the 2010 level was $52,646.

- In 2013, real median household income was 8.0% lower than the 2007 pre-recession level of $56,436.


More hard data (as opposed to ridiculous anecdotes & opinions): https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/statemedian/

Here are some particularly interesting hard data trend graphs:

Hey everyone, look at this nerd with his charts!

 

[Mixolydian]

There's different levels of "middle class". There's "lower middle class", "middle class", and "upper middle class".

Arbitrarily I would define "middle class" as an income of ~$50k-$70k

 

[Phoenix86]

If being in the top 1% of earners qualifies someone as middle class than the term is effectively meaningless as it describes virtually everyone in the country apart from the absurdly wealthy and the inconceivably destitute.

Ding ding.

Middle class should be somewhere in the 25-75% range. What middle class affords you is another story all together (hint: that's the real problem).

 

[madoka]

Thank you for the responses. I now see why my friend and I were in such disagreement.

The gist of my argument to him was very similar to Atomic Playboy and was all about how much he earned:

If being in the top 1% of earners qualifies someone as middle class than the term is effectively meaningless as it describes virtually everyone in the country apart from the absurdly wealthy and the inconceivably destitute.

Whereas he was not basing it on income so much as what he had the freedom to do in life, kind of like what tweak said:

Also to answer, I think he falls in the middle class range, but probably upper middle class. He's reached the point of being able to buy ridiculously overpriced things for no good reason other than because he can, but he still has to work / earn income and cannot just go do whatever he wants.

Plus he spends his days in the boardroom with billionaires in San Francisco, so comparatively he FEELS very poor, as brought up by loki:

to an extent, it all depends who you're comparing yourself to.

I make a good income, but I felt poor as fuck when I was dating a 1%'er Wall St guy who drove a luxury car, lived in a waterfront high-rise with a Manhattan view, and could afford things like going out to fine dining restaurants every night or taking spur of the moment vacations.

I think of middle class as someone who doesn't necessarily worry about money, but needs to plan/save before splurging on things like a vacation or expensive new toys.

 

[Squeetard]

Lower class: under the average income
Middle class: average to 2-3x average income (depending on the country)
Upper class: over 2-3x average income

Your friend can work for 5-10 years, retire, and have yearly spending money of over 2x average income after that for the rest of his life. That's by no means middle class, most of the middle class has to work till 65+ in order to have enough money for their retirement.
Yes, it's possible with a 1M yearly income to not be able to manage if you insist on buying a huge mansion with lots of land and hiring a full staff to manage it, eating at the most expensive restaurants and flying all across the globe in a private plane all the time. But then, it's also possible to waste a trillion dollars a year if you really want to, that doesn't mean that you're middle class.

This.

Living fairly comfortably, but not rich. Ex: not able to just randomly splurge on something big, have to actually save up for it. So like, under 100k salary. Anything below 30k I'd say is lower class. Can't afford a house or much on that kind of salary and have to make big commitments such as not having a car or not having anything nice at all.

More this. Also depends on the cost of living in your area but I'd go with these. Ima also say that 100-500k = upper middle class. 500k+ = upper class.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I define it as something _above_ working class. If you're a union steelworker making $75k per year, you're not middle class. If you're a cop making $120k per year, you're not middle class. If you're an engineer making $100k, you're not in the middle class.

People decry the shrinking middle class. Truth is, they were never a part of that class, much as they were told by politicians that they had made it and as much as they wanted to believe it.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Whereas he was not basing it on income so much as what he had the freedom to do in life, kind of like what tweak said:

Yeah, but how many people have the freedom to do whatever they want in life? Basically nobody. Saying "I can't afford to buy a private island just so I have a place to park all my yachts, therefore I'm basically in the same boat as someone making a median salary" is fucking ludicrous. If you ever find yourself making 7 figures annually, you are not middle class. You just aren't. You may not quite be the super-wealthy multinational-corporation-owning class, but when you have more wealth than 99% of people, you aren't in the middle. Your friend sounds like the sort of person who, on the eve of his 30th birthday, describes himself as being in his mid-20s. "You don't hit your late-20s until 11:48pm, bro! Now let's do shots of Fireball and laugh at those poor suckers trying to get by on a dentist's salary!"

 

[PlanetJosh]

Can't we just rely on the U.S. federal government definition/guidelines for it? k, a little sarcasm there.

 

[Engineer]

Stupid charts showing Median income levels tell you nothing. To get to that level they are counting all the billionaires and millionaires into the average. This means there are a lot of really poor people that don't really get counted. It is hard to say how many people are making $12k and $20K and $30k and $40k?

I don't 'median' means what you think it means.

 

[Tweak155]

Yeah, but how many people have the freedom to do whatever they want in life? Basically nobody. Saying "I can't afford to buy a private island just so I have a place to park all my yachts, therefore I'm basically in the same boat as someone making a median salary" is fucking ludicrous. If you ever find yourself making 7 figures annually, you are not middle class. You just aren't. You may not quite be the super-wealthy multinational-corporation-owning class, but when you have more wealth than 99% of people, you aren't in the middle. Your friend sounds like the sort of person who, on the eve of his 30th birthday, describes himself as being in his mid-20s. "You don't hit your late-20s until 11:48pm, bro! Now let's do shots of Fireball and laugh at those poor suckers trying to get by on a dentist's salary!"

A lot of people, actually, from a pure number perspective. From a % of population perspective, not many. But that is what puts them outside of middle class.

I don't look at middle class from an income perspective, I look at it from a structure perspective. If you rely on someone else for your well being, you're stuck in the middle.

But as someone alluded to earlier, its not only the income that is relevant. It is what you can with that income. Just your income doesn't really represent much of your real ability / purchasing power.

 

[Belegost]

Stupid charts showing Median income levels tell you nothing. To get to that level they are counting all the billionaires and millionaires into the average. This means there are a lot of really poor people that don't really get counted. It is hard to say how many people are making $12k and $20K and $30k and $40k?

Knowing the difference between the mean and the median is rather important. (For all that people whine about math they learned in school being useless...)

The mean is the average formed by adding up everyone's income and dividing it by how many people there are. This is the sort of average you're thinking about when complaining here. This is NOT the median.

The median is the average formed by finding the point where half the people make less, and half make more. This is NOT the mean. How much the richest people make has no influence on this value, how little the poorest people make also has no influence.

The median is used in those charts exactly for the purpose of avoiding your complaint. It tells you the point that divides everyone in half, and thus provides a very good idea of the center.

The median is also the 50 percentile - meaning that 50% of the population makes less than the median value. You can get more specific knowledge of incomes by looking at other percentiles. Wikipedia provides one such table.

• 2011 Household income
• 20%ile 20,262
• 50%ile 50,054
• 80%ile 101,582
• 95%ile 186,000

So, 20% of households make less than 20K/year. 80% less than 101K/year. Further you can look at differences between - we can see that 30% of households make more than 20K but less than 50K. Another 30% make more than 50K and less than 101K.

 

[mizzou]

"Middle Class" by definition is the center of both income extremes. Not in poverty, Not extremely wealthy.

The Middle Class state of mind is where you have a house, car, vacations, and fun toys. You also have to be mindful of your spending and bills. Since pretty much everyone from poor to extremely rich people can have that state of mind, they all claim to be "Middle Class".


If you want my "opinion"....Middle Class is at least the average household income. So $52,000 in regular town USA will get you around $3,500 a month cash in the bank. If you are one to do some savings, that will get a family by just fine each year. You can do some modest vacations, savings, etc....but you won't be living in a $500,000 house.

Live in an apartment for $500/month that also covers utilities, $3,500 a month can go quite a long ways.

Live in a house for $1,500/month mortgage, you are really starting to stretch yourself thin.

People who make $150,000 a year may bring home around $10,000 cash each month in the bank. That is upper class to me.

Here's my idea of poverty/class structure in USA (For regular cities, not super metro regions)

Household income
$0-$20,000 = Poverty
$20,000-$35,000 = Lower class
$35,000-$50,000 = Middle/Lower class
$50,000-$75,000 = Middle Class
$75,000-$125,000 = Middle/Upper class
$125,000-xxxxxx = Upper Class

It's so variable based on location...but I don't think "lifestyle" should really be included. Just because you live paycheck to paycheck at $200,000 salary doesn't mean you are barely making it....it just means you suck at math.

Your filthy rich friend is a douchenozzle for claiming to be middle class at $350,000 a year.... that's what? $20,000 take home cash each month?

 

[jlee]

Lol I'd like to see Mr. "Middle class" making $1mil a year try living on $50k/yr and see how middle class he feels then.

 

[mizzou]

That's about right IMO.

Middle class is enough to live comfortably and not worry about money, but not enough that you don't have to manage money. Even if you make $1M a year, you can't just go out and buy a $70k car without seriously thinking about it.

I'd say that upper middle class is probably something like $500k to $3M per year.

If you can even consider buying a $70k car, you are upper class. That's just my opinion ....but I also don't value cars like some do. Many people will skimp in areas to afford that nice car.

Everyone at all income levels has to manage money, so that doesn't in of itself mean you are not upper class. Not worrying about money, is definitely a factor, but also not completely defining.

For example, I have a friend who has as much household income as me, but he barely lives paycheck to paycheck. They are saddled with huge amounts of debt and also keep incurring unexpected expenses (often due to poor planning). They have to eat basically poor people food and make huge lifestyle cuts.

I, on the other hand, have a much more carefree life as I've made different choices.

I'd say we are both "middle class" to an extent, but my experiences of that class is much different then theirs. Clearly our lifestyles are different...but it's apparently not related to just income level.

 

[mizzou]

..Below 500k and you are doomed to work. Under 100k? Good luck owning a home before you are 65. You will likely work until you are dead due to the endless struggle of financial hardship and desperation.
Also, if you live on the moon or on mars, you may get by with under 100k and be alright, so long as you buy nothing and grow your own food, saving every last penny for a retirement back on earth.

I could see 100k being moderate income if you want to live in an extremely wealthy area. But 500k is a shit ton of money....if you can get by with just 50k living expenses (Which is not hard to do), you could retire within a few years! How the hell could you blow through $30,000 a month for 30-40 years anyway?

 

[Hugo Drax]

Middle Class used to mean in the late 60s

A 1000 Sq feet home, 2 bedrooms 1 bathroom home with a yard and BBQ, one or two television sets.

One or two autos but average age of them 5-6 years old. Range of price when new, 12-14K in todays money

Passbook savings account. (yes people saved money back then)

Christmas club or vacation club to put aside money for a vacation, christmas gifts etc..

siblings shared 1 room. not every kid had his own 400sq feet room.

 

[cbrunny]

I'm pretty sure The Simpsons already have answered this one.

Homer is part of Upper-Lower-Middle class (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0778455/quotes) and makes either $24,395.80 pre-tax or $60,0000 pre-tax

source: http://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/21278/how-much-money-does-homer-make

In the episode "Much Apu About Nothing", Homer's paycheck is revealed to the world when he looks at the check and sees his pay is "drastically" short. It appears as an itemized check with the following:

Springfield Power Company

Employee: Homer J Simpson

Sector 7G

40HRS PAY

Fed W/H........... $56.25

Bear Patrol Tax........$5.00

FICA..................$36.34

State W/H..........$10.45

Municipal Tax.....$9.37

Net Pay...........................................................................$362.19

When this is stretched over a year, it appears that Homer brings home $24,395.80 before deductions and $18,833.88 after deductions. It doesn't seem like he is getting what he deserves as a Nuclear Safety Inspector. Though given the plant's less than stellar conditions this might be true for all other employees. However, in the episode American History X-cellent, Carl exclaims to Homer, "Homer, that's a $60,000 bottle of wine!", which Homer, who is drinking the wine, replies "Woohoo! I'm drinking my salary!" which suggests that's his actual salary.

Being upper-lower-middle-class, the hierarchy obviously looks like this:

upper-lower-middle
middle-lower-middle
lower-lower-middle
upper-upper-lower
middle-upper-lower
lower-upper-lower
upper-middle-lower
middle-middle-lower
lower-middle-lower
upper-lower-lower
middle-lower-lower
lower-lower-lower

which means he is in the 12th rank from the bottom.

If you believe he makes $60K per year, which seems far more likely than the $24K stated in a much earlier season, divided equally each rank is approximately $5K each. Therefore, we can say this:

$130K+ : upper-upper-upper
$125K to 130K: middle-upper-upper
$120K to $125K: lower-upper-upper
$115K to $120K: upper-middle-upper
$110K to $115K: middle-middle-upper
$105K to $110K: lower-middle-upper
$100K to $105K: upper-lower-upper
$95K to $100K: middle-lower-upper
$90K to $95K: lower-lower-upper
$85K to $90K: upper-upper-middle
$80K to $85K: middle-upper-middle
$75K to $80K: lower-upper-middle
$70K to $75K: upper-middle-middle
$65K to $70K: middle-middle-middle
$60K to $65K: lower-middle-middle
$55K to $60K: upper-lower-middle
$50K to $55K: middle-lower-middle
$45K to $50K: lower-lower-middle
$40K to $45K: upper-upper-lower
$35K to $40K: middle-upper-lower
$30K to $35K: lower-upper-lower
$25K to $30K: upper-middle-lower
$20K to $25K: middle-middle-lower
$15K to $20K: lower-middle-lower
$10K to $15K: upper-lower-lower
$5k to $10K: middle-lower-lower
$0 to $5K: lower-lower-lower

But, the episode where he states he earned $60K was in 2010, so after four years of wage increases at the rate of inflation (http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/historicalinflation.aspx) his $60K is actually $66212.84, shifting the ranges by an approximate 10.3%.

$137,943.42 to $143,461.15: upper-upper-upper
$132,425.69 to $137,943.41: middle-upper-upper
$126,907.95 to $132,425.68 :lower-upper-upper
$121,390.21 to $126,907.94 :upper-middle-upper
$115,872.48 to $121,390.20 :middle-middle-upper
$110,354.74 to $115,872.47 :lower-middle-upper
$104,837.00 to $110,354.73 :upper-lower-upper
$99,319.27 to $104,836.99 :middle-lower-upper
$93,801.53 to $99,319.26 :lower-lower-upper
$88,283.79 to $93,801.52 :upper-upper-middle
$82,766.06 to $88,283.78 :middle-upper-middle
$77,248.32 to $82,766.05 :lower-upper-middle
$71,730.59 to $77,248.31 :upper-middle-middle
$66,212.85 to $71,730.58 :middle-middle-middle
$60,695.11 to $66,212.84 :lower-middle-middle
$55,177.38 to $60,695.10 :upper-lower-middle
$49,659.64 to $55,177.37 :middle-lower-middle
$44,141.90 to $49,659.63 :lower-lower-middle
$38,624.17 to $44,141.89 :upper-upper-lower
$33,106.43 to $38,624.16 :middle-upper-lower
$27,588.69 to $33,106.42 :lower-upper-lower
$22,070.96 to $27,588.68 :upper-middle-lower
$16,553.22 to $22,070.95 :middle-middle-lower
$11,035.48 to $16,553.21 :lower-middle-lower
$5,517.75 to $11,035.47 :upper-lower-lower
$0.00 to $5,517.74 :middle-lower-lower

So, as usual, The Simpsons did it.

 

[maddogchen]

Lol I'd like to see Mr. "Middle class" making $1mil a year try living on $50k/yr and see how middle class he feels then.

Lots of people make $1 mil and only have $50k/yr in expenses. Its not how much you make, its how much you save.

 

[futurefields]

endangered species

 

[Slew Foot]

if you have to work or youll starve, youre working class.
if you can live off investmets, youre middle class.
if you can manipulate the government and economy, youre upper class

 

[cbrunny]

if you have to work or youll starve, youre working class.
if you can live off investmets, youre middle class.
if you can manipulate the government and economy, youre upper class

that doesn't make sense. you have to have enough investment to live off them to be middle class? That's a terrible definition.