what do people have against nVidia for their Linux chipset driver support

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: REMF
SATA2

It's an open standard, everyone will have it eventually. Not innovative.

NCQ

No clue what this is.

NVRAID

Is this hardware raid? Or just more bios assisted software raid? Never heard of it.

NVFirewall

Trash. Not innovative.

Activearmour TCP-IP offload

Many network cards take care of some of the intensive parts of tcp/ip. Get a decent card. Not innovative.

SLI (now)

I think VIA has this in the works, and IIRC 3dfx innovated it back in the day. Not innovative.

overclocking king

It's been going on since before nVidia was around (and works fine on my VIA board). Not innovative.

all in one package, all in one driver, all in all a working masterpiece......

..... barring the lack on decent onboard audio.

Most of this stuff isn't necessary and none of it is innovative. Try again.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: REMF

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: REMF
but behind, right? and with less innovative features too?

Yes, maybe a few percentage points behind in some areas. Small enough that I'll never notice, especially if the system is stable since it is well supported.

we are, but i dual boot and will continue to do so until my fave games pop up on GNU/Linux.

That's why I have more than 1 computer.

lets turn this around: what makes Via so good?

i am getting a new computer, available funds will determine how much of the old one i need to scavange.

VIA is very friendly towards Free and Open Source Software. They have provided documentation and hardware to various projects.

 

[REMF]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: REMF
SATA2

It's an open standard, everyone will have it eventually. Not innovative.

NCQ

No clue what this is.

NVRAID

Is this hardware raid? Or just more bios assisted software raid? Never heard of it.

NVFirewall

Trash. Not innovative.

Activearmour TCP-IP offload

Many network cards take care of some of the intensive parts of tcp/ip. Get a decent card. Not innovative.

SLI (now)

I think VIA has this in the works, and IIRC 3dfx innovated it back in the day. Not innovative.

overclocking king

It's been going on since before nVidia was around (and works fine on my VIA board). Not innovative.

all in one package, all in one driver, all in all a working masterpiece......

..... barring the lack on decent onboard audio.

Most of this stuff isn't necessary and none of it is innovative. Try again.

thankyou for deciding what is important to me and what is not.

but are these things here now in other platforms?
more importantly, are all these things available in other platforms?
and if they aren't, what do these other platforms offer in compensation?

you try again.

 

[REMF]

> VIA is very friendly towards Free and Open Source Software. They have provided documentation and hardware to various projects.

marvellous, but i am talking about good hardware backed up by good drivers, that in my opinion, form the basis for every good system.......

what are you on about?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: REMF
thankyou for deciding what is important to me and what is not.

You're welcome. The important part of my statement was none of it is innovative. Try again.

but are these things here now in other platforms?

What does that have to do with innovation? I can get an SATA2 card, but why bother when I can have SCSI? NCQ has been in SCSI for a while now. RAID is available all over. The nVidia firewall isn't "feature" worthy. I'm not sure how well Linux even supports SLI, and you can overclock just about anything.

So yeah, they're available. Now.

more importantly, are all these things available in other platforms?
and if they aren't, what do these other platforms offer in compensation?

They're there.

you try again.

Now name something innovative.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: REMF
> VIA is very friendly towards Free and Open Source Software. They have provided documentation and hardware to various projects.

marvellous, but i am talking about good hardware backed up by good drivers, that in my opinion, form the basis for every good system.......

what are you on about?

NO NO NO. You asked, and I quote:

lets turn this around: what makes Via so good?

The fact that they are friendly towards F/OSS is one of the reasons they are so good. It is an appropriate answer for your question.

Good hardware:
VIA C3 - best encryption hardware out there (x86).
VIA C3 - Damned cool and doesn't use much power.
VIA C3 - Kinda small.
K8T800 - Pretty kick ass chipset.
K8T800 Pro - Helps the overclockers a bit.
VIA VT82C686A, VT8233, VT8235, VT8237 - decent integrated audio (is any integrated audio GOOD?).
VT6122 - Good enough for me.
VT82C686A/VT8231 - They'ev come in handy in the past.
VT3043, VT86C100A, VT6105/VT6105M - Realtek-esque ethernet.
VT82C586/A/B, VT82C596A/B, VT82C686A/B, VT8231, VT8366, VT8233, VT8235, VT8237 - Nice long list. (nVidia's stuff is mentioned as supported also, nice. unfortunately at least one of the developers doesn't think much of their stuff )

 

[REMF]

wow, a whole long list of chipsets (north and south) whereas i came out with a specific set of features all within one chipset.

via C3...... lovely except to a gamer.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: REMF
wow, a whole long list of chipsets (north and south) whereas i came out with a specific set of features all within one chipset.

I gave you: processors, north and south chipsets, NICs (fast and gig ethernet), sound support, I could have mentioned video cards, and hardware monitors... Enough for an entire computer.

All supported by OpenBSD, which has some anemic hardware support according to Linux geeks.

via C3...... lovely except to a gamer.

The same can be said about Linux.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Supporting nVidia does not support F/OSS. Supporting F/OSS friendly companies _does_ support F/OSS. If you don't care about F/OSS, why are you using Linux?

 

[MNKyDeth1]

Why not use what works? F/OSS and windows, it doesn't really matter unless your a stickler about certain things. I just have a problem with this statemaent.

If you don't care about F/OSS, why are you using Linux?

I care about Linux in the sense of free will, and choice. Just because it is OSS does not mean or obligate you to use something that may or may not be considered more OSS friendly.

I beleive something we need to keep in mind here is that Via has been in chipsets longer than nvidia has been doing vid cards. To have the level of support in the kernel that we have now is astonishing considering when the NF1 was out we only had downloadable drivers. Did Via have support or downloadable drivers on there first chipset release when Linux was around? I am not sure tbh.

Imo, I say use what you like, it all works in one way or the other. I may be an exception to the rule with not having any "real" problems with my boards on Linux but I am no slouch when it comes to reading to make sure what things are and are not supported by the OS I choose.

The best way to support F/OSS is to donate $$$ plain and simple. Supporting a company just because they are deemed more OSS friendly won't change a thing. It's changing the companies that don't support OSS is what needs to happen. The way that happens is with purchasing stuff and giving them feedback on what needs to be fixed or improved upon.

Most people don't beleive big companies hear the little folks in the world but atleast with nvidia they have a link direct to a forums (nvnews) for help if needed. They check those boards and see what needs to be improved upon for the OSS community. It may be slow but atleast it happens.


Sorry for my rant but knocking something just because it doesn't have support for something and telling people it's trash is not the way to win people over. Via, Nforce, Sis, Ali, Intel and many other chipsets are very well supported in Linux. Who do you think does the real support for hardware anyways? It's the programers who do the kernel in Linux, I am not sure who does it in the BSD world, but you get my point.

peace

 

[n0cmonkey]

EDIT: WTF?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: MNKyDeth1
Why not use what works? F/OSS and windows, it doesn't really matter unless your a stickler about certain things. I just have a problem with this statemaent.

Boohoo.

If you don't care about F/OSS, why are you using Linux?

That's a smart statement.

I care about Linux in the sense of free will, and choice. Just because it is OSS does not mean or obligate you to use something that may or may not be considered more OSS friendly.

No, it doesn't obligate you to help out F/OSS (the F is important), but it only makes sense that you should.

I beleive something we need to keep in mind here is that Via has been in chipsets longer than nvidia has been doing vid cards. To have the level of support in the kernel that we have now is astonishing considering when the NF1 was out we only had downloadable drivers. Did Via have support or downloadable drivers on there first chipset release when Linux was around? I am not sure tbh.

Who cares? What matters is that VIA is supporting F/OSS quite well _now_. nVidia doesn't have far to go to get a thumbs up from me.

Imo, I say use what you like, it all works in one way or the other. I may be an exception to the rule with not having any "real" problems with my boards on Linux but I am no slouch when it comes to reading to make sure what things are and are not supported by the OS I choose.

I rarely have issues myself. I make sure what I get will work, and keep up with the news. When a developer of my OS of choice says to avoid nVidia, I avoid nVidia. When the main developer of my OS of choice says that Intel isn't being friendly, I avoid Intel.

The best way to support F/OSS is to donate $$$ plain and simple. Supporting a company just because they are deemed more OSS friendly won't change a thing. It's changing the companies that don't support OSS is what needs to happen. The way that happens is with purchasing stuff and giving them feedback on what needs to be fixed or improved upon.

No no no no. Once the company has your money they don't have to listen to you anymore. You give money to the companies that are good and make sure the companies that aren't know why you didn't give them money.

Most people don't beleive big companies hear the little folks in the world but atleast with nvidia they have a link direct to a forums (nvnews) for help if needed. They check those boards and see what needs to be improved upon for the OSS community. It may be slow but atleast it happens.

Things have not improved much, and as far as I can tell haven't improved because of nVidia.

Sorry for my rant but knocking something just because it doesn't have support for something and telling people it's trash is not the way to win people over.

I don't care about winning anyone over. I'm trying to help give people facts so they can either buy nVidia or think about it logically.

Via, Nforce, Sis, Ali, Intel and many other chipsets are very well supported in Linux. Who do you think does the real support for hardware anyways? It's the programers who do the kernel in Linux, I am not sure who does it in the BSD world, but you get my point.

I get your point but you missed something important. How do they do that work? You think they guess? No, they get documentation from the manufacturers. With those docs they write drivers. When nVidia stupidly doesn't release docs, reverse engineering happens. That reverse engineering is slow and filled with problems. It'd be easier (and the driver quality would be better) if nVidia released docs. SIMPLE.

peace

Piece.

 

[REMF]

so, how is that better or more advanced hardware than the nForce chipset generations?

 

[REMF]

ahh, bit of a purist are we?

i like tech, i like advanced tech better, i advanced tech that works just like it says on the box.

thus in order of importance:
1) i like computers
2) i like advanced computers like nForce4, A64, NCQ h/d's, DX9.0c vidcards
3) i like operating systems that work, and are not forced on one by monopoly conditions, thus i like linux.

if that isn't pure enough for you i can but apologise.

you still haven't explained why Via hardware is better, you rubbished many nVidia innovations which Via doesn't support, offer none in return, i begin to think your opposition stems entirely from your fanatical loyalty to FOSS movement...........?

 

[Sunner]

n0c didn't say they were crap, he just said they weren't innovations.
If Ford makes something really innovative, and Toyota copies this, if Toyota innovative just because Honda doesn't have it?

NCQ is a nonissue for anything but servers.
What would you use their firewall for? You have ipfilter/IPTables.
TCP/IP offload, again what would you use this for? Are you routing a B-net for Microsoft or something?

The rest, I agree, they're nice, not innovative but nice.
If I were to buy a motherboard today I'd probably go with an nForce4, but I'd rather just wait a little while for VIA to come out with their own chipset supporting these features, this would change if nVidia would just give docs for their damn NIC to OSS developers.

 

[drag]

There is nothing inherently better in Nvidia's onboard motherboard. It's all marketing snake oil.

Both Via and Nvidia make good chipsets for cheap motherboards. Plus Via makes a good range of enterprise class hardware and that's more usefull for Linux users then the nforce gimmiks on "tcp/ip accelerator" crap.

Nvidia hasn't done anything like that until just recently. With their professional line they are going to find it quite a bit harder to sell without proper Linux support. So either I expect nvidia to either have a failing line of server-class hardware or start to support F/OSS developers a hell of a lot better then they already are.

Personally I hate how all these consumer-level motherboard companies feed off people's ignorance.

For example, why does every single person now sell onboard "raid 0/1" controllers nowadays? They are completely worthless for the most part.

First off your not going to have ANY benifit from running RAID 0 with 2 drives. Nothing at all. Nada. Complete waste of money. You might as well buy 2 harddrives and when you get one smash the other one with a hammer, at least then you'd have half the chance of loosing your data. Hell it will probably slow your system down more then anything.

Raid 1 is almost as worthless. It's ok because it halves your chances of loosing data thru a single harddrive failure, but that's it. A lightning strike or power surge or controller failure is just about as likely to screw everything up. So it's not realy a substitute for backups.

Having to depend on propriatory drivers makes it worse. They don't actually take much, if any, load off of your CPU since those motherboard raid controllers don't do any of the work anyways. It's like a software modem, were the raid is mostly emulated. Your much better off running software RAID.

And that doesn't matter if your system is a intel or a via or nvidia based. It's fluff. As is on-board firewalls, onboard TCP/IP accelerators, etc etc.

SLI is ok since you may want to spend your money on a fast video card or two. SATA2 is ok, I guess. But I don't know what advantages it currently has over SATA 1 since modern harddrives are nowere near maxing out a SATA channel, now or in the forseeable future. Right now there is no speed advantage in choosing SATA2 over something like ATA100, or even ATA66. Although the the hotswappability and the formfactor are much more attractive.

 

[uOpt]

BTW, has anybody been able to make the sound on the K8N-E Deluxe work?

No success here, neither with the package downloaded from NVidia nor with newest ALSA. It is unclear to me which module to load, but loading everything modified for this chipset didn't work. It seems to me I have a revision not recognized, but clearly NVidia fails to even mention which modules to load.

Anybody? And what module provides the final driver?

 

[drag]

Nforce boards have always used the snd-intel8x0 module for alsa sound.

Once it's loaded all the channels will be mute, so you would have to use alsamixer to adjust it.

Also you will have to setup a ~/.asoundrc or /etc/asound.conf file with the dmix plugin to turn on software mixing because it doesn't support hardware mixing.

I don't know if the Nforce3 is the same way, but I wouldn't be suprised...

If you want a nice cheap Linux-supported sound card that will work out much better pick up a sound blaster 5.1 "live" or a Audigy sound card. Those use the snd-emu10k1 driver and is much better supported. If creative isn't good enough for you there are a veriaty of sound cards that work very well in linux, some very high quality professional-style ones.

You can find more details on howto setup your specific card
here:
http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/
and here:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/

Some recommended sound cards here:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php?page=Alsa+Preferred+Soundcards

You should be able to get your onboard working ok, though.

(for computer audiophiles their are some very good Envy24HT-based cards that have good support from what I can tell. I don't have one, but some seem nice)

 

[silverpig]

Not only did I hate the non-working nforce-net (thank god for the second 3com port on my old mobo), but my super-duper dolby digital encoding nforce2 apu was reduced to a software mixing output jack in linux.

Upgraded to an A64 with a via K8T800 Pro chipset and popped in my old SB Live! 5.1 digital. Everything works great.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: REMF
ahh, bit of a purist are we?

i like tech, i like advanced tech better, i advanced tech that works just like it says on the box.

thus in order of importance:
1) i like computers
2) i like advanced computers like nForce4, A64, NCQ h/d's, DX9.0c vidcards
3) i like operating systems that work, and are not forced on one by monopoly conditions, thus i like linux.

if that isn't pure enough for you i can but apologise.

you still haven't explained why Via hardware is better, you rubbished many nVidia innovations which Via doesn't support, offer none in return, i begin to think your opposition stems entirely from your fanatical loyalty to FOSS movement...........?

You have mentioned NO innovations.

You want a VIA innovation: The VIA C3 Padlock hardware security suite. Now, name one innocation from nVidia, troll.

 

[drag]

eh. Actually the padlock is pretty freaking cool. Not usefull for the average desktop or server setup... But it's great for applications were you need to have very high speed encrypted networks. Like say you have a campus or a business that needs to be connected by a microwave link (wifi).. You'd use two little mini-itx boxes and get higher speed encryption then a half dozen 3+ ghz Pentium 4's.

 

[uOpt]

Originally posted by: drag
Nforce boards have always used the snd-intel8x0 module for alsa sound.

Once it's loaded all the channels will be mute, so you would have to use alsamixer to adjust it.

That is what I figured when the PCI id of my chip showed up in the 8x0 source code.

Unfortunately loading the module does not give me a device. It's not the mute problem, there is no device driver loaded. /var/log/message didn't tell me another either.

As far as I can figure, this driver does not work with my revision of the board. And I didn't appreciate guessing the module either, Asus must mention that to get credit for providing a driver.

The machine has all PCI slots taken, among other things with a sourdcard. But I want the slot back so it would be great to make that onboard sound work.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: MartinCracauer

Originally posted by: drag
Nforce boards have always used the snd-intel8x0 module for alsa sound.

Once it's loaded all the channels will be mute, so you would have to use alsamixer to adjust it.

That is what I figured when the PCI id of my chip showed up in the 8x0 source code.

Unfortunately loading the module does not give me a device. It's not the mute problem, there is no device driver loaded. /var/log/message didn't tell me another either.

As far as I can figure, this driver does not work with my revision of the board. And I didn't appreciate guessing the module either, Asus must mention that to get credit for providing a driver.

The machine has all PCI slots taken, among other things with a sourdcard. But I want the slot back so it would be great to make that onboard sound work.

Not sure what you mean.

If the driver loads, then it's probably finding something to hook into. Now if that works or not, I have no idea.

With alsa it's a bit different from normal Unix driver and OSS. No /dev/dsp for Alsa, except thru OSS compatability.

Check out /proc/asound and see if anything turns up in their. It should have something. /proc is something that is not a real file system, but it allows you to see what the kernel has to say on various resources... Also sometimes way to interact with the kernel. It differs from driver to driver. If you don't have /proc/asound then something is wrong with alsa (ie the module isn't going to work with that hardware as far as I can tell.)

And I didn't appreciate guessing the module either,

Should of gone to alsa-project.org right away.

 

[REMF]

why are you calling me a troll?

what is innovative about the above is that nVidia is the first to bring these features into mainstream boards.

online gaming for example, your CPU should be running the game, not bogged down with network traffic and firewall checking.

3D sound in games: far better to have DSP's doing the calculations than the CPU.

nVraid: the ability to span an array over PATA and SATA drives.

i agree Padlock is an excellent addition, but for pity's sake put it on a powerful CPU! it isn't useful to me because i have no use for such an underpowered CPU. it is indeed an innovation, but it has zero impact on the techy prosumer crowd.

 

[Sunner]

If your CPU is weak enough to be bogged down by the very very small amounts of IP traffic an online game will generate, it won't be powerful enough to play Solitaire, let alone WoW, Doom, or whatever.