What do conservatives think about equality ?

[fskimospy]

To me, the state acting to stop racists is merely the removal of artifical barriers to opportunity - really, just an extension of the state's general authority to promote social order via a penal code. The state isn't interfering in the promotion of opportunity; it's merely preventing others from interfering on an unjust basis. The state is merely returning the playing field to level, after others have tilted it.

And what some people think is just interference, others think is government oppression. We can get from there to Brown v. Board in a hop, skip, and a jump, and now government is promoting opportunity by using the school resources that other districts' tax dollars have paid for in the service of other students.

 

[boomerang]

Let's see Tom. I'm 55 and recently retired. I started work at age 12 and have worked consistently ever since. At age 16 I earned enough to start having to file a tax return. For 43 years I've paid Federal Tax, Social Security Tax and Medicare Tax. I've lived in Michigan my entire life and this state has an income tax so I've paid that too for 43 years.

I've paid sales tax on nearly every purchase (some food items are excluded here). I've paid it on every car I've bought whether used or new. I've paid tax on all my utility bills through those years. I've paid numerous taxes on every gallon of gasoline I've consumed to date. I've paid taxes to several cities I've worked in over the years even though I didn't live in them.

When I bought my first home I got the pleasure of paying property taxes. I married late in life at 39 and have no children. Yet I've had to pay school taxes all these years to educate other people's children. Some of those children have vandalized my mailbox, my home and my cars through the years. Some of those children have broken into my home and stolen things from me.

I've paid taxes on interest I earned from after tax dollars saved. I've paid capital gains taxes on investments. I've paid taxes on dividends.

I've even paid taxes on taxes.

I've worked all those years and paid all those taxes including the ones I've forgotten about or just plain overlooked. Everything I own, everything, is the result of my labor. Everything was bought with that portion of my income that the government deemed was mine to keep. In their eyes, I'm still not giving enough and I haven't given enough. They're pushing through Congress right now legislation to take still more of it away from me. They're probably going to succeed.

Then there's people like yourself. People who have the gall to tell me that I didn't actually earn what I worked for. That I profited from the work of others and in a sense received a "gift". You have not one fucking clue son what I did to earn a living, what I have sacrificed and what I may sacrifice in the future to have what little I have. People like yourself would like to take away what I have. You wrap your petty, selfish, childish thoughts up in a neat little socialist wrapper that makes you feel justified in your laziness. I came into this life with nothing. I have inherited nothing. Everything I have is because of my labor.

Keep looking for shortcuts in life or act like a man, roll up your sleeves and start making it happen all on your own. My guess is you'll be looking for a handout for quite some time.

 

[totalnoob]

Conservatives believe in equality of process..in other words, a standard set of rules that are predefined and where the government plays a passive role..letting people rise and fall on their merits. Liberals believe in a "cosmic" definition of equality..meaning that if someone is born poor, it is ok to change the rules and offer them a "boost" on the playing field..and that people who are born talented deserve to be cut down a few notches with penalties and taxes.. This world view of course requires that the rules of the game NOT be objective. Changing the rules to allow more equal outcomes is a breach of justice according to conservatives...while NOT changing the rules and refraining from offering supports/punishments to different players is a breach of justice to liberals.

Conservatives want equal process regardless of starting points. They believe attempting to remedy "cosmic" injustices like being born poor and stupid, by punishing the the rich/successful necessitates a breach of true justice and can only cause harm.

Liberals believe that we need an unequal process to compensate for unequal starting points. They don't want a level playing field..because that would do nothing to fight cosmic injustices. The poor would still tend to be poor. Instead the rules must be flexible and non-objective so the strong players must be crippled with weights and the weak can be given bicycles. The left and right basically have opposite definitions of what constitutes justice, fairness, and equality.

 

[Carmen813]

So much misinformation... where to start.

Homosexuals have just as much chance to marry as we do. Any man, homosexual or not, has the chance to marry a woman. You may not like that FACT, but it most certainly is true.
Women working outside the home? That's not a Conservative(in todays political sense) position.
nice attempt to play the race on the sly - doesn't fly here either.

Whoooshhhhh

That was the sound of the meaning behind his post flying over your head.

 

[blackangst1]

Yeah, this, except when conservatives are arguing against the opportunity of gays to get married and adopt children who otherwise would live in a foster home; or when conservatives opposed women having the opportunity for careers outside the home because it would disrupt the "family structure"; or when conservatives felt separate but equal was a perfectly acceptable alternative since hey, everyone got to ride on a bus, just on different parts of it, no biggie.

Now I know many if not most conservatives do not today believe in any of the above (ceptin the part about the gays), but those were all historically conservative positions. Standing athwart history shouting 'stop' and all that.

And it used to be Democrats unilatterally opposed equal rights for blacks. You really want to get into the history argument?

 

[Carmen813]

It's real easy. Conservatives believe in equal opportunity for all.

Liberals believe in equal outcomes for all.

Communists believe in equal outcomes for all. I know it's fun to equate liberals with communists, but that doesn't actually reflect the reality of the liberal position.

 

[Mursilis]

And what some people think is just interference, others think is government oppression. We can get from there to Brown v. Board in a hop, skip, and a jump, and now government is promoting opportunity by using the school resources that other districts' tax dollars have paid for in the service of other students.

Which is why school funding on a district by district level is so problematic. But that's not a race issue so much as a class issue. Not every minority attends an underfunded school, and not every white child attends a great one. I've already mentioned the need for the state to promote opportunity for all by promoting equal access to a quality education, both as a chance for personal growth, and to develop an intelligent electorate.

 

[Carmen813]

Let's see Tom. I'm 55 and recently retired. I started work at age 12 and have worked consistently ever since. At age 16 I earned enough to start having to file a tax return. For 43 years I've paid Federal Tax, Social Security Tax and Medicare Tax. I've lived in Michigan my entire life and this state has an income tax so I've paid that too for 43 years.

I've paid sales tax on nearly every purchase (some food items are excluded here). I've paid it on every car I've bought whether used or new. I've paid tax on all my utility bills through those years. I've paid numerous taxes on every gallon of gasoline I've consumed to date. I've paid taxes to several cities I've worked in over the years even though I didn't live in them.

When I bought my first home I got the pleasure of paying property taxes. I married late in life at 39 and have no children. Yet I've had to pay school taxes all these years to educate other people's children. Some of those children have vandalized my mailbox, my home and my cars through the years. Some of those children have broken into my home and stolen things from me.

I've paid taxes on interest I earned from after tax dollars saved. I've paid capital gains taxes on investments. I've paid taxes on dividends.

I've even paid taxes on taxes.

I've worked all those years and paid all those taxes including the ones I've forgotten about or just plain overlooked. Everything I own, everything, is the result of my labor. Everything was bought with that portion of my income that the government deemed was mine to keep. In their eyes, I'm still not giving enough and I haven't given enough. They're pushing through Congress right now legislation to take still more of it away from me. They're probably going to succeed.

Then there's people like yourself. People who have the gall to tell me that I didn't actually earn what I worked for. That I profited from the work of others and in a sense received a "gift". You have not one fucking clue son what I did to earn a living, what I have sacrificed and what I may sacrifice in the future to have what little I have. People like yourself would like to take away what I have. You wrap your petty, selfish, childish thoughts up in a neat little socialist wrapper that makes you feel justified in your laziness. I came into this life with nothing. I have inherited nothing. Everything I have is because of my labor.

Keep looking for shortcuts in life or act like a man, roll up your sleeves and start making it happen all on your own. My guess is you'll be looking for a handout for quite some time.

Might I ask what field you worked in?

 

[her209]

where the fuck did that come from???

you are an idiot.

Its no secret there's still "conservatives" who feel this way.

 

[boomerang]

Might I ask what field you worked in?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=326719&highlight=carcinogen

Post #85

 

[Mursilis]

Its no secret there's still "conservatives" who feel this way.

And there are "liberals" who just want to leech off of others. What's your point, other than trolling?

 

[cubeless]

Its no secret there's still "conservatives" who feel this way.

pssst... it's no secret that there's still 'liberals' who feel this way...

 

[shadow9d9]

It's real easy. Conservatives believe in equal opportunity for all.

Liberals believe in equal outcomes for all.

Could you explain then, why conservatives were against emancipation, women's right to vote, and civil rights?

 

[PJABBER]

Let's see Tom. I'm 55 and recently retired. I started work at age 12 and have worked consistently ever since. At age 16 I earned enough to start having to file a tax return. For 43 years I've paid Federal Tax, Social Security Tax and Medicare Tax. I've lived in Michigan my entire life and this state has an income tax so I've paid that too for 43 years.

I've paid sales tax on nearly every purchase (some food items are excluded here). I've paid it on every car I've bought whether used or new. I've paid tax on all my utility bills through those years. I've paid numerous taxes on every gallon of gasoline I've consumed to date. I've paid taxes to several cities I've worked in over the years even though I didn't live in them.

When I bought my first home I got the pleasure of paying property taxes. I married late in life at 39 and have no children. Yet I've had to pay school taxes all these years to educate other people's children. Some of those children have vandalized my mailbox, my home and my cars through the years. Some of those children have broken into my home and stolen things from me.

I've paid taxes on interest I earned from after tax dollars saved. I've paid capital gains taxes on investments. I've paid taxes on dividends.

I've even paid taxes on taxes.

I've worked all those years and paid all those taxes including the ones I've forgotten about or just plain overlooked. Everything I own, everything, is the result of my labor. Everything was bought with that portion of my income that the government deemed was mine to keep. In their eyes, I'm still not giving enough and I haven't given enough. They're pushing through Congress right now legislation to take still more of it away from me. They're probably going to succeed.

Then there's people like yourself. People who have the gall to tell me that I didn't actually earn what I worked for. That I profited from the work of others and in a sense received a "gift". You have not one fucking clue son what I did to earn a living, what I have sacrificed and what I may sacrifice in the future to have what little I have. People like yourself would like to take away what I have. You wrap your petty, selfish, childish thoughts up in a neat little socialist wrapper that makes you feel justified in your laziness. I came into this life with nothing. I have inherited nothing. Everything I have is because of my labor.

Keep looking for shortcuts in life or act like a man, roll up your sleeves and start making it happen all on your own. My guess is you'll be looking for a handout for quite some time.

QFT!

I don't live in Michigan but on behalf of the families with good kids in Michigan that you supported in getting an education on the back of your labor I will offer thanks. The money was wasted on punks, of course, but with age may come maturity and even they may at some point apply what was crammed into them toward useful purpose.

FWIW, I was born into a working class immigrant family that had experienced war and totalitarianism of both the left and the right up close and personal. My parents pushed five kids hard academically through private schools and Saturday classes and summer schools that kept us on the edge of bankruptcy and all of us got college degrees that were mostly paid by loans that we paid off within a couple years out of school. We all started working at around the age of 11 and thought work was the best thing in the world, especially when we got paid. I started work as a caddy carrying 30 - 40 pounds of golf clubs, but wound up doing shipping and receiving in a machine shop packing and lifting 50 lb. boxes of metal. No complaints, both forms of work set me up for when I was in the infantry carrying a whole lot more weight around. None of us asked for nor got anything that we have through anything but hard work and the natural talent we were born with. So I can identify.

I pay huge amounts of taxes and think most of them, other than those for defense and essential services, are wasted. The social welfare approach that has taken over this country since the Roosevelt era way before my time has definitely abrogated individual incentive for effort and curtailed nascent drives for individual achievement. Not with all, but enough that we are a poorer country because of it.

Poor public education with a social imperative has fostered generations who look to others for happiness rather than deep within themselves. There has been an ongoing abandonment of self determination, of freedom really, that has cost us several lost generations. And who have not a clue what they have given up.

I see this whenever I read the threads on this forum. And this is the educated class. Those without an education have just frustration they cannot fathom the cause of because the sense of entitlement without achievement they have come to expect is the norm.

 

[PJABBER]

Could you explain then, why conservatives were against emancipation, women's right to vote, and civil rights?

You are so wrong, my friend. The "conservatives," or more accurately the classical liberals, were the ones that championed those causes. You fail to read and understand history so you have wound up being a tool.

 

[shadow9d9]

Let's see Tom. I'm 55 and recently retired. I started work at age 12 and have worked consistently ever since. At age 16 I earned enough to start having to file a tax return. For 43 years I've paid Federal Tax, Social Security Tax and Medicare Tax. I've lived in Michigan my entire life and this state has an income tax so I've paid that too for 43 years.

I've paid sales tax on nearly every purchase (some food items are excluded here). I've paid it on every car I've bought whether used or new. I've paid tax on all my utility bills through those years. I've paid numerous taxes on every gallon of gasoline I've consumed to date. I've paid taxes to several cities I've worked in over the years even though I didn't live in them.

When I bought my first home I got the pleasure of paying property taxes. I married late in life at 39 and have no children. Yet I've had to pay school taxes all these years to educate other people's children. Some of those children have vandalized my mailbox, my home and my cars through the years. Some of those children have broken into my home and stolen things from me.

I've paid taxes on interest I earned from after tax dollars saved. I've paid capital gains taxes on investments. I've paid taxes on dividends.

I've even paid taxes on taxes.

I've worked all those years and paid all those taxes including the ones I've forgotten about or just plain overlooked. Everything I own, everything, is the result of my labor. Everything was bought with that portion of my income that the government deemed was mine to keep. In their eyes, I'm still not giving enough and I haven't given enough. They're pushing through Congress right now legislation to take still more of it away from me. They're probably going to succeed.

Then there's people like yourself. People who have the gall to tell me that I didn't actually earn what I worked for. That I profited from the work of others and in a sense received a "gift". You have not one fucking clue son what I did to earn a living, what I have sacrificed and what I may sacrifice in the future to have what little I have. People like yourself would like to take away what I have. You wrap your petty, selfish, childish thoughts up in a neat little socialist wrapper that makes you feel justified in your laziness. I came into this life with nothing. I have inherited nothing. Everything I have is because of my labor.

Keep looking for shortcuts in life or act like a man, roll up your sleeves and start making it happen all on your own. My guess is you'll be looking for a handout for quite some time.

You sound bitter that you worked all of your life at the expense of your social life... and now you have no kids... not much to look forward to then...

If you don't like paying taxes, move to a country without taxes. Taxes go to what we like and what we don't like. That is life.

My father came from a poor family and bought his parents' first car for them... he managed to get married at 26(met at 19), have 2 kids, and retire at 43. Want a medal?

 

[blackangst1]

Could you explain then, why conservatives were against emancipation, women's right to vote, and civil rights?

When did the Democrats become the party of the conservatives? I understand they *used to be* more conservative than they are now, but they certainly havent been the conservative of the two parties. The whole "champions of the underpriveledged and minorities" is a reletively new thing for them.

 

[shadow9d9]

You are so wrong, my friend. The "conservatives," or more accurately the classical liberals, were the ones that championed those causes. You fail to read and understand history so you have wound up being a tool.

A tool... so you mean I spend my days trolling and spamming opinion posts from lunatic fringe websites, and refuse to ever post an iota of evidence to back my insane claims?

Conservatives are defined as those that do not want change, and conservatives were against all those things.. and guess what... they were from the same hick southern and western regions that are now republicans.

 

[shadow9d9]

When did the Democrats become the party of the conservatives? I understand they *used to be* more conservative than they are now, but they certainly havent been the conservative of the two parties. The whole "champions of the underpriveledged and minorities" is a reletively new thing for them.

I never said democrats or republicans... the parties have changed, but the regions and their stances have stayed the same. The south and west have been resistant to change for 100s of years now.. and they were the conservatives against all these things... now they are still against gay marriage.

Reminds me of those arguing that ny-23 wasn't a conservative stronghold since the civil war because other regions were once called ny-23... ignoring that when people were referring to ny-23, they were talking about the region.

 

[boomerang]

You sound bitter that you worked all of your life at the expense of your social life... and now you have no kids... not much to look forward to then...

If you don't like paying taxes, move to a country without taxes. Taxes go to what we like and what we don't like. That is life.

My father came from a poor family and bought his parents' first car for them... he managed to get married at 26(met at 19), have 2 kids, and retire at 43. Want a medal?

Your tunnel vision has led you to completely miss the point of my post. A post that was not even directed at you.

Bitter, no. Very happy to not have kids of my own. My wife has two and we have three grandchildren so far.

You miss the point of many posts here. One of them I called you out on yesterday and you still don't know what you overlooked in that one.

A movie quote for you. A movie with a tragic ending. Very apropos.

"You may think you know what you're dealing with, but believe me, you don't"

 

[PJABBER]

A tool... so you mean I spend my days trolling and spamming opinion posts from lunatic fringe websites, and refuse to ever post an iota of evidence to back my insane claims?

Conservatives are defined as those that do not want change, and conservatives were against all those things.. and guess what... they were from the same hick southern and western regions that are now republicans.

Your hatred may come from ignorance. Have you considered that? Do you have a personal reason for your hatred or is it just that you were taught to hate?

I've got to say that I actually enjoy reading this thread, though it may veer a bit off track as we indulge in describing the backgrounds which form our thinking and perspectives on equality and freedom. Though not essential to expressing opinion, it is good to reflect on the roots which bring us to where we are right now. So thanks to the OP for allowing that in the midst of all the noise.

 

[jonks]

So much misinformation... where to start.

Homosexuals have just as much chance to marry as we do. Any man, homosexual or not, has the chance to marry a woman. You may not like that FACT, but it most certainly is true.

Er, yes, and just as factual that any black man used to be able to marry so long as he married a black woman, so no inequality there either right? And any black person could go to public school, just not with white children. The sad thing is this makes perfect sense in your mind, and people who don't get that are the dumb ones.

Your posiiton is that a gay person has every right to marry someone they would never want to marry, and thus has equality.

You should be embarassed to be using this argument, I haven't seen one reputable intelligent conservative ever make this argument, which is probably why you repeat it. It's a horrible talking point, illogical in the extreme, offensive, and idiotic. Par.

 

[Elias824]

As always a relatively interesting topic has boiled down to the democrats did this and the republicans did that nonsense. Equality is kind of a feelgood word and really means nothing other then what a few politicians will say to make you like them.
The first question is, what is equality, you could say like many other people have that we need equality of opportunity. That each person has an equal shot at becoming a big and powerful person. The problem is that this is an impossibility and it defies logic. Even from the moment your conceived you have some advantage/disadvantage because of genetics, and then when when your born you have some advantage or disadvantage based on your family status and their wealth and even your geographical location. How do we make things "equal" when there billions of factors that decide this. I suppose the only way is some crazy sci-fi world where your pay is set based upon what opprotunity you had. If you grew up in a really bad situation and managed to get an education and a decent job maybe you should make 100k a year, and if your rich and didnt do alot with yourself you would make nothing.
There is a practical limit with all things, we can try to bend a few rules and provide better opportunity for people but "equality" is just really a feel good word, and is impossible.

 

[Tom]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Say we can both agree with the "right to life". As a liberal I would say that includes the right to healthcare. Leaving aside who or how it's paid for for a moment.

Do you agree or disagree ?

I missed this before, but I'd like to respond. I believe in a basic right to life (few don't, really), but not in a "right" to healthcare, though I'm OK with the state providing it if it can do so in an efficient, fair manner. I think a modern, affluent society can and should provide a basic level of healthcare for all its citizens, especially the young.

But how can you say a person has a "right" to healthcare? Are you saying you can force others to treat you, even if you and they know you'll never pay them? How is that different from slavery?

that's what I meant by setting aside how it's paid for. could be whatever an individual is willing to pay for themselves and that's it.

same as right to pursue happiness doesn't require people to do so.

 

[boomerang]

QFT!

I don't live in Michigan but on behalf of the families with good kids in Michigan that you supported in getting an education on the back of your labor I will offer thanks. The money was wasted on punks, of course, but with age may come maturity and even they may at some point apply what was crammed into them toward useful purpose.

FWIW, I was born into a working class immigrant family that had experienced war and totalitarianism of both the left and the right up close and personal. My parents pushed five kids hard academically through private schools and Saturday classes and summer schools that kept us on the edge of bankruptcy and all of us got college degrees that were mostly paid by loans that we paid off within a couple years out of school. We all started working at around the age of 11 and thought work was the best thing in the world, especially when we got paid. I started work as a caddy carrying 30 - 40 pounds of golf clubs, but wound up doing shipping and receiving in a machine shop packing and lifting 50 lb. boxes of metal. No complaints, both forms of work set me up for when I was in the infantry carrying a whole lot more weight around. None of us asked for nor got anything that we have through anything but hard work and the natural talent we were born with. So I can identify.

I pay huge amounts of taxes and think most of them, other than those for defense and essential services, are wasted. The social welfare approach that has taken over this country since the Roosevelt era way before my time has definitely abrogated individual incentive for effort and curtailed nascent drives for individual achievement. Not with all, but enough that we are a poorer country because of it.

Poor public education with a social imperative has fostered generations who look to others for happiness rather than deep within themselves. There has been an ongoing abandonment of self determination, of freedom really, that has cost us several lost generations. And who have not a clue what they have given up.

I see this whenever I read the threads on this forum. And this is the educated class. Those without an education have just frustration they cannot fathom the cause of because the sense of entitlement without achievement they have come to expect is the norm.

Strangely, I don't feel the money was wasted. It was my debt to society. I will agree that much of it went to waste, but that is the subject for long debate and not suited for this minute corner of the world. Regardless, it's water under the bridge. It's done and over with. No sense getting worked up about what is behind us and cannot be changed.

I am happy with my lifestyle. The home on Kauai is not to be. One of several dreams that did not come through for me. Such is life. There is no one to blame but myself and what's to be gained from that?

Little turds who think the world owes them something bring out posts from me like those you quoted. Sadly, although I know they'll have no affect on them, I continue. Some form of Masochism?

One such little turd is going to more than likely get put on my ignore list today. It really does make life much more pleasant here.

BTW, in seeing your background I fully understand why you post what you post and why you have the attitudes you do. Your parents escaped governments just like the one that many here see as ideal. A form of government we may very well end up with here if those that recognize what's happening don't remain vigilant and fight back against it. My parents did not experience what yours did. But I was fortunate enough to get an education before history books were re-written. Altered to show that the liberators were the agressors and so on. You almost can't blame younger people today because they received a rather thorough brainwashing.

How people could so fully embrace a form of government that has failed in every instance before is beyond me. Of course their history lessons taught them otherwise. Duh!