What Determines Speed?

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
3rd one down. in certain things it will be faster but if you look at the entire article its maybe overall 10% faster maybe

Oh. 3rd one down. In that case, the performance looks to be identical (both scored 163). Am I missing something?

 

[shoRunner]

yeah the third one down was the description that i quoted. overall you'll see that the raptor is a faster drive, but for almost $200 for < 80GB when you can get an 80GB hard drive for like $50. i just don't think the 10% is worth the 4x the price

 

[justly]

Just to help clairify, that synthetic benchmark showing hard drive speeds not having much of an effect is because the benchmark is probably running within RAM. This is why you should want more RAM opposed to a faster hard drive, so actually you (GammingMouse) are probably correct with your statement "the Raptor only improve my query speeds if 1) The DBs were stored on the raptor AND 2) The query was too big to take place within RAM alone".
That doesnt mean get a slow hard drive, after all your hard drive will still have to load your data base into RAM, but once that is done the hard drive performance should have a minimal effect.

 

[Diasper]

I agree with shoorunner - what he suggested would make an amazing system and I would suggest something rather similiar. I'm probably not quite as qualified as shoRunner but I'd like to think decently informed nevertheless.

AMD - Yes, I'd say go with the 3500 due to significant price saving for not much less performance. If you really wanted you could overclock *very* easily and hit 4000 or more speeds. Of course doing so would require a significant time input on your part to ensure it was absolutely rock solid and stable - it'd also take up some days while you run checks, tests and diagnostic which would mean you couldn't use it for that time. time = money

Motherboards - yes good choice. Nice and stable.

RAM - well, it's contentious but I'd personally head towards 2GB just because RAM prices are quite low currently and you could use the money saved from the cheaper processor - if you did buy RAM I'd recommend crucial for their quality and having the best support. (www.crucial.com) Of course, if you're thinking about upgrading this box in the future to dual-core in the longer future and you won't need 2GB RAM for a while you may want to wait and see what new technological moves happen. For example it could be possible AMD might make a move to DDR500 speed RAM, with dual cores - of course that's all speculation an should be treated as such. In short, either way you won't be going wrong - unless it turns out you need that 2GB of RAM within the next 6 months in which case it'll only be a minimal amount of money lost and some inconvience of changing it round and selling the old.

Hardrives - as said RAID 5 would be mightily impressive if you needed to access/transfer alot of data quickly while providing data security as if it was constantly backed up. I'd endevour to aim for that If you could. Seagate are a very sound suggestion for their 5 year warranty. However, Samsung due to their low noise and (reported) reliability could be something else worth researching and considering. www.storagereview.com for that.

The Antec 3000-B is a very good case suggestion - quality, low cost, excellent cooling at low noise. What I'd recommend to anyone unless they wanted a flash looking case.

The NEC-3520 - an excellent choice for a burner. I have its forebear and its excellent - reliable and not too loud.

Graphics card - that radeon x300se is again another good suggestion. You do not need any powerful graphics card. You only need one that can display 2d windows - heck if a nvidia TNT2 card back from 1998 or whatever would be sufficient if it came in PCI-E.

As for the power supply, you have a bit of latitude there but aiming for 350W minimum or 400W of a quality power supply would be a good move. 400W if you're thinking about dual core or overclocking although no doubt that would still be overkill given you don't have a powerful wattage-sucking graphics card. Good power supplies include Seasonic as mentioned, Fortron/Sparkle, Enermax (I'd recommend the noisetaker line), Tagan and perhaps Antec although I've had a 350W Smartpower of theirs go bad on me.



ps. from what people have been telling you, it really shows good advice is hard to find. In short, I highly doubt anyone could recommend a better system configuration than what shoRunner did (ignoring small modifications)

 

[shoRunner]

yes i'd definately recommend going for some more ram over getting a raptor.

 

[Diasper]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
yes i'd definately recommend going for some more ram over getting a raptor.

ditto.

As before the next order of priority if you were to get any components over shoRunner's recommendation I would say it would be upping the RAM to 2GB.

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
yes i'd definately recommend going for some more ram over getting a raptor.

So how about I do that, but basically do everything else you recommended, except no RAID. In that case would I still get the HDs you recommend, except I'd get only two, and wouldn't install them in a RAID. Is this correct?

 

[classy]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
One thing I'll be doing with it is performing complex queries on large local databases.

If your just querying a database you want a faster cpu. For queries you need a lot ram when there many people trying to access the database. If its just you for the most part, you'll want a faster cpu, with a fast disk subsystem. It would probably help if you said what is the application you'll be using.

 

[Diasper]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse

Originally posted by: shoRunner
yes i'd definately recommend going for some more ram over getting a raptor.

So how about I do that, but basically do everything else you recommended, except no RAID. In that case would I still get the HDs you recommend, except I'd get only two, and wouldn't install them in a RAID. Is this correct?

I'd say that would could be an alright move if you don't want to get involved in any complexities with RAID. I mean with two hardrives, you could could have one for the OS and database and have the other acting as the database back-up ie just transfer across whenever you want in addition to having it on your laptop. Of course, if you're not doing RAID then you could simply get away with one hardrive really. The think is If you're going to have other people constantly accessing the database or indeed be in the situation where you have to constantly access the database RAID has very strong advantages.

Anyway, hardrives and RAID is one of the areas I have least knowledge so I'll defer to others for clarification


(edited)

 

[shoRunner]

if you were only gonna get two hard drive's then you may just want to get an 80gb for your OS and the 120 for the database. you'd be suprised how easy a raid array is to setup.

if you wanted to go to 2GB. you could get 2 of these:
Geil 1GB

 

[shoRunner]

if you were going to do daily backups also could just use one hard drive.

 

[GamingMouse]

you'd be suprised how easy a raid array is to setup.

The thing is, much of the data I'll be working with is static. I'm not going to be changing it -- just doing various analyses on it. I could probably get away with backing it up to DVDs once a month. There is just no reason for a RAID, as I understand them. Thus it would actually be a waste of HD space that could be put to better use. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[GamingMouse]

If your just querying a database you want a faster cpu. For queries you need a lot ram when there many people trying to access the database. If its just you for the most part, you'll want a faster cpu, with a fast disk subsystem. It would probably help if you said what is the application you'll be using.

Ahh.. This is so frustrating. Differnent people with lots of posts who seem knowledgeable keep saying different things. ShoRunner said the difference between an Athlon 3500 and 3800 would be negligible.

Btw, I know the thread is long and I don't blame you for not reading it all, but I did say what apps I'd be using. I have a bunch of (completely full) Access DBs, and I'll be merging them into 1 very large MySQL DB. The DBs will then in turn be used by a Java app and probably a php app.

Thanks for further clarification,
gm

 

[shoRunner]

well the purpose the RAID setup would be to protect against the the failure of a hard drive. you could also do a RAID1 setup which uses 2 drives and mirrors the data so you'd always have 2 copies, this would also protect against hard drive failure. RAID5 also, in optimum situations, will increase read speeds. if you don't feel you need this then you probably do just fine backing up your data.

 

[wseyller]

Some sql engines could hog 2gb of ram on the default install. I've seen some sql setups chew on 6 to 8 gb of ram. You could probably set it to chew on how every much you want. It's not the exact size of your database (like 500mb) that determines all the memory you need. The engine itself needs lots of memory not counting everything you need to run windows and all other small applications running in the background. In your situation more ram and hard drive access speed will be more critical than cpu speed. I would recommend some fast hard drives like scsi, or maybe a raptor would do fine. I would setup of a mirroring raid, so if one drive fails your system isn't down, and you just replace the bad drive and rebuilt the array.

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
well the purpose the RAID setup would be to protect against the the failure of a hard drive. you could also do a RAID1 setup which uses 2 drives and mirrors the data so you'd always have 2 copies, this would also protect against hard drive failure. RAID5 also, in optimum situations, will increase read speeds. if you don't feel you need this then you probably do just fine backing up your data.

Why is HD failure an issue? Isn't it very rare for this to happen? It seems like in my case a RAID would be protecting me against dangers that aren't really there.... I mean, basically I am just a regular desktop user who will happen to be doing these large queries. As long as my data is backed up on disk, why should I worry about HD failure any more than the next guy?

 

[shoRunner]

well when you talk about database queries, i think that this is for a business. whenever i build a computer for a business that has sensitive and/or important data on it a raid1 or 5 comes to mind. i'm not saying it will happen anymore than the average user, but i thought that it may have more consequences.

 

[wseyller]

Normally in a business environment a pc or server that does important tasks like the ones you will be doing it is very important that there is no down time. Even though you have a backup if your hard drive went bad (and it happens when you least expect it) your pc or server may be down for a day or two because you would have to buy a new drive, reinstall and re-setup everything from scratch. This downtime is not acceptable for some businesses as time is money. For 2 or more drives mirrored, for all of them to go bad at the same time would be like winning the lottery. You should just ask yourself if you could afford such a downtime if such a situation happens.

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: wseyller
Normally in a business environment a pc or server that does important tasks like the ones you will be doing it is very important that there is no down time.

Down time is not an issue at all for me. It's not for a business. I am doing research.

Given all this, does that change anyone's recommendations?

 

[shoRunner]

then if its not an issue one hard drive should do you just fine. you may want to do 2 partitions, one for os one for data, so if you had to to a reinstall you wouldn't have the hassle of losing your data.

 

[Aztech]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
I have now come up with a revised and tentative system based on suggestions here, as I understand them. I would LOVE to get any comments/revisions on it.

[*] CASE -- COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum/Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - $49.49
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119068

[*] POWER -- POWMAX PSDE480 ATX 480W Power Supply 115/230 V UL, D, S, N, CB, CE, and FCC - $29.00 -- http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817163017

[*] MOBO -- GIGABYTE GA-K8NXP-SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard à $162.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128269

[*]PROCESSOR -- AMD Athlon 64 3500+ ClawHammer/Hammer 1GHz FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor à $267.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103514

[*] VIDEO CARD (this still confuses me, and I'd like to get recommendations for a cheaper one, if possible) eVGA Geforce 6600GT 128MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI-Express x16 Video Card à $177.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130214

[*] MEMORY -- WINTEC 1GB (2 x 512MB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM Unbuffered DDR2 400 (PC2 3200) System Memory à $149.97
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820161654

[*] HD 1 (I would put the OS on here, right? And also apps???)-- HARD DRIVE Western Digital Raptor WD740GD 73GB 10,000 RPM 8M Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive à $178.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144160

[*] HD 2 (for data, right?) -- 2. Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 ST3160827AS 160GB 7200 RPM 8M Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive à $102.99
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148034

[*] DVD REWRITABLE/CD-RW -- MEMOREX 16x16 DUAL FORMAT INTERNAL DVD+-RW & 4X DOUBLE LAYER DVD+R DRIVE à $99.99 - $20 MIR
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4367295?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Get a better brand of RAM and a better brand of DVD burner:

For RAM: Crucial or Kingston or Corsair (Major Brands)
For DVD: The NEC that has been suggested in this thread multiple times

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
then if its not an issue one hard drive should do you just fine. you may want to do 2 partitions, one for os one for data, so if you had to to a reinstall you wouldn't have the hassle of losing your data.

So there would be no advantage at all to getting one faster drive that would be used primarily to store the DBs on? Or rather... no significant advantage?

 

[GamingMouse]

aztec,

thanks for the tips. i will make those changes.

 

[shoRunner]

if you could afford it then there wouldn't be a reason not to, but if it required you to go to a slower cpu or less ram then i don't think i'd be worth it. i think you could probably remove the 120s from my build get an 80 and still have enought money to get a 36g raptor and a 2GB of ram and still be under budget.

 

[Arcanedeath]

In your case this is what I would build, everything is from Newegg, you can find some of the parts cheaper at Zipzoomfly / MonarchPC / CheifValue / Mwave but I did it this way for simplicity.

Case Antec Solution SLK3000-B Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail 45.00 + 15.99 shipping

Power Supply SEASONIC Super Silencer 460W Super Silencer ATX 460W Power Supply 110.00 + 6.99 shipping

CPU AMD Athlon 64 3200+ Winchester Integrated into Chip FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor - Retail 190 + free shipping

Motherboard DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 Ultra-D Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 Ultra ATX AMD Motherboard - OEM 130 + 2.99 shipping

Memory Patriot 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM Unbuffered DDR 400 (PC 3200) Dual Channel Kit System Memory - Retail 285.00 + 4.33 shipping

Video Card eVGA Geforce 6200TC 16MB (supporting 128MB) 32-bit DDR PCI-Express x16 Video Card - Retail 59.00 + free shipping

Storage HDD Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 SATA NCQ ST3200826AS 200GB 7200 RPM 8M Cache Hard Drive - OEM 129.00 +3.99 shipping

Boot HDD Western Digital Raptor WD740GD 73GB 10,000 RPM 8M Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - OEM 179 + 3.99 shipping

Grand Total = 1127 + 38.28 shipping = $1165.28

This should more than meet your requirments, is still under budget and inlcudes 2GB of PC3200 DDR, a Raptor, and one of the best most tweakable motherboards ever made.

Feel free to modify it how you like but for the tasks you described I belive this would be the best balance of price / performance in your pricerange.

edit: I forgot the DVD burner NEC Black 16X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 4X DVD+R DL 16X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 24X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2M Cache IDE DVD Burner - OEM 48.99 + 2.99 shipping

This puts you slightly over the budget if you get all the parts from newegg, but if you shop these parts at some of the other stores you can come in under budget., Also if you order the CPU + Motherboard from MonarchPC they will assemble it for you, pretest it, and give you a free copy of FarCry, HL2, and 4 months worth of Napster .