What Determines Speed?

[GamingMouse]

If you are getting someone to help you put the system together they will probably be able to help you with the raid. If this is still a worry and seems too complex then i would get a 120gb seagate sata drive purely for your operating systems and programs and another say 200gb for all your data. You probably don't need 120gb for your system drive so you might want to get an 80gb drive instead. I don't know how much data you'll need to backup so choose the size of the drives to suit what your needs are likely to be.

In this case, do I get two different qualities of drive? A cheap one for just holding the data, and a good one to run the the OS on? Can you tell me specifically which drive I should get for each? What are the metrics that determine how fast data on the hard drive can be put into ram and processed by the CPU? I'm still confused on this point. Is there an article for this? Google has been worthless so far for this (or I've been worhtless using google). Anyway, thanks for any more info.

gm

 

[GamingMouse]

At this point, I'm thinking of going with a system close to what ShoRunner suggested. I also PM'd Matthias for additional suggestions, and he made this comment:

I think there's a lot of good info in that thread. If you want more specific suggestions (on type/speed of CPU, specific MB recommendations, disk setups, etc.), you're going to have to provide more information on what exactly you're doing. Database queries is kinda vague. Is this SQL? ASP.NET? Or some custom analysis program? Do you know if the program you're using is SMP-aware (could impact upgrades, and if so maybe you should consider a dual-CPU setup)? If you're using some commercial package, folks might be able to help you find benchmarks to see how Intel and AMD run in an environment somewhat like yours.

To answer that question, I have a bunch of (completely full, 60K records, or whatever it is) Access databases. I forget how big they are, but over 100MG at least. I plan to merge these DBs info a single large (or at least several much larger) MySQL databases. I will then be executing somewhat complex SQL queries on these DBs, through both Java and php applications. All of this stuff is done offline. Local backups are more than sufficient. I'm pretty sure RAID would be total overkill.

I hope this is enough info. If not, please let me know what else I can tell you.

Thanks again,
gm

 

[MplsBob]

It seems to me that there are two questions that need to be answered before you can arrive at your final answer.

What database program are you using, and most importantly, what capability does it have to utilize large amounts of RAM. It might be pie in the sky of me to suggest that your manual for the software, if there is one, or the "help" file, may specify this. It certainly would be worth contacting the manufacturer so that you can make an informed decsion.

If you are lucky, they will say the more ram the better up to "N" gigabytes. More likely they will give you a lower value. If they give you a very low number and the database program is old, you might ask the same question on their newest database and upgrade to that if you get more utilization of memory.

After you have checked this out, you are in a much better position to act on the advice above.

Just remember that sometimes the best answers require a bit of work.

 

[GamingMouse]

What database program are you using, and most importantly, what capability does it have to utilize large amounts of RAM. It might be pie in the sky of me to suggest that your manual for the software, if there is one, or the "help" file, may specify this. It certainly would be worth contacting the manufacturer so that you can make an informed decsion.

As I said in my last post, the DB programs will be Access and MySQL, accessed through Java and php apps. I think this is what you were asking. If not, please let me know.

Thanks....

 

[MplsBob]

Are you going to be running these programs on your own machine or are you going to be submitting your queries over a network?


I just want to be sure I understand, so forgive me for asking something you have already answered.

 

[shoRunner]

the good thing about getting a socket 939 system is the ability to upgrade to a dual core system if you use software that is smp aware.

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: MplsBob

Are you going to be running these programs on your own machine or are you going to be submitting your queries over a network?.

On my own machine.

 

[Cheesetogo]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse

Originally posted by: DLeRium
Now now. A 2 GHz Athlon 64 (3200+) kicks a P4 3.2 around. So let's hope you're dealing with the same CPU type here and the 3.2 should win.

I have also been told that P4s are more reliable than Athlons, and that I should stay away from Athlons.

Is this true?

Btw, I will not be doing any gaming on this PC.

Thanks again,
gm

You were probably told that by an idiot who has no clue what he is talking about. AMD beats Intel in almost everthing! AMD's are very good, and definetly reliable. However, the type of stuff you are doing I think intel is better in. You might want a dual core if you do heavy multi-tasking.

 

[Elcs]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Lovehandles

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
I have also been told that P4s are more reliable than Athlons, and that I should stay away from Athlons.

Is this true?

Pure garbage. That must be why the company (AMD) has been around for 35+ years.

Amen. AMD's Athlon XP and Athlon 64 processors have been making Intel look silly for almost three years now.

And heres me thinking it was their rather outdated PR system.

Joking aside, AMD is a stable platform with rather mature and well developed chipsets. In the past, they were considered a little unstable and carried a heat warning.

These days, in the stability scheme of things, AMD and Intel seem pretty much tied but AMD generally runs cooler.

 

[GamingMouse]

However, the type of stuff you are doing I think intel is better in. You might want a dual core if you do heavy multi-tasking.

Is it? I keep hearing different things about this. And if it is better, by how much? If we are talking 5-10%, then I think I'd take the Athlon anyway b/c it's so much cheaper. Could you please elaborate?

Thanks,
gm

 

[MplsBob]

Whew, that's good news. I suddenly had the feeling that I misunderstood the whole situation.

Now, what I have said still stands. Ascertain, and it probably won't be easy, the maximum amount of memory these products will utilize. Don't be hesitant to contact the outfits that produced them.

Just remember this, the more you can keep this thing operating out of memory, as oppposed to disk storage, the faster they will run. By quite a bit, more than which processor you choose.

There are people who might disagree with me, but I think the brawl over processors is just plain silly. Each will do the job and the differences between roughly equivalent processors are not that significant. I am biased, because of a long standing dislike over the years for some of Intel's business practices. So I always choose AMD. The choice is made simpler because the AMD processors cost less than the Intel processors and deliver slightly better performance, so it is a no-brainer.

In a few minutes I will be leaving for my evening class in Database Management and SQL. I'll check and see if you have added any more to the messages when I return about 9:15pm Central Daylight Time.

If you are accumulating work on your computer, I hope that you are performing backups so that some hickup doesn't cause you to lose a lot of work. I right now have a 250GB hard drive external to my PC that I connect to it by a FireWire cable. My C: drive has about 12 gigabytes of data on it and it takes a little over 12 minutes to copy everything in compressed form to the backup drive. Should I lose the contents of my hard drive, I can quickly restore everything from the backup drive.

However this works out, I wish you the best on the task you have ahead of you.

BobM

 

[GamingMouse]

I have now come up with a revised and tentative system based on suggestions here, as I understand them. I would LOVE to get any comments/revisions on it.

[*] CASE -- COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum/Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - $49.49
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119068

[*] POWER -- POWMAX PSDE480 ATX 480W Power Supply 115/230 V UL, D, S, N, CB, CE, and FCC - $29.00 -- http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817163017

[*] MOBO -- GIGABYTE GA-K8NXP-SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard à $162.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128269

[*]PROCESSOR -- AMD Athlon 64 3500+ ClawHammer/Hammer 1GHz FSB 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor à $267.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103514

[*] VIDEO CARD (this still confuses me, and I'd like to get recommendations for a cheaper one, if possible) eVGA Geforce 6600GT 128MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI-Express x16 Video Card à $177.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130214

[*] MEMORY -- WINTEC 1GB (2 x 512MB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM Unbuffered DDR2 400 (PC2 3200) System Memory à $149.97
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820161654

[*] HD 1 (I would put the OS on here, right? And also apps???)-- HARD DRIVE Western Digital Raptor WD740GD 73GB 10,000 RPM 8M Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive à $178.00
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144160

[*] HD 2 (for data, right?) -- 2. Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 ST3160827AS 160GB 7200 RPM 8M Cache Serial ATA150 Hard Drive à $102.99
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148034

[*] DVD REWRITABLE/CD-RW -- MEMOREX 16x16 DUAL FORMAT INTERNAL DVD+-RW & 4X DOUBLE LAYER DVD+R DRIVE à $99.99 - $20 MIR
http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4367295?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

 

[shoRunner]

DO NOT get a powmax powersupply

ok, no offense but the build i already recommend for you would outperform yours and you wouldn't have to worry about losing your data.

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
DO NOT get a powmax powersupply

how come?

 

[shoRunner]

because they are one of the lowest quality powersupplies possible. i personally don't know anyone that still has a functioning one.

 

[thecrecarc]

rad the thread. i suggest u go with more knowlageable ppl than me but here is my thought




POWMAX POWERSUPPLYS ARE BAD. A COMPLETE NO NO.



i suggest 2gb ram, but hey, thats just me

get a more cheaper gaphics card

the rest looks fine

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
because they are one of the lowest quality powersupplies possible. i personally don't know anyone that still has a functioning one.

what brand do you recommend?

 

[shoRunner]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
i've never seen any database queries benchmarks for anything but opterons or xenons, but anyways logically you're going to want to spend most of your money getting the fastest processor as that will benefit you the most. i would also think that losing your database due to a bad hard drive would be bad so...

msi 939 motherboard, has raid 5. $145
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130484

gig o'ram $100
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231012

(3) 120gb seagate hard drives $94(x3) for raid5
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231012

radeon x300se $60
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102415

nec 3520a $50
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152035

seasonic 400w $80
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/400tornado.html

a64 3800+ $378
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103465

antec case $45
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129152

total about $1140

 

[GamingMouse]

sorry shoRunner. the seasonic. ok, thanks.

The only reason I wouldn't go with that system outright is that I really don't have any reason for RAID. Weekly backups, even, would be fine for my purposes. Is it correct to assume that means RAID would be wasteful? I'm still not clear on this.

Thanks,
gm

 

[shoRunner]

well, with raid it is always doing backups for you, so if a hard drive goes out you simply replace it rebuild and you haven't lost a thing.

*edit*
if you didn't want to do raid you could simply just remove a drive from my suggestion. using a raptor for your o/s would be a waste of money since you doing databasing so it would give you no performance improvement for that.

 

[GamingMouse]

if you didn't want to do raid you could simply just remove a drive from my suggestion. using a raptor for your o/s would be a waste of money since you doing databasing so it would give you no performance improvement for that.

What is the raptor good for? Is it just a gaming thing? Or would the Raptor only improve my query speeds if 1) The DBs were stored on the raptor AND 2) The query was too big to take place within RAM alone?

 

[shoRunner]

"The user opens a database using Access 2002 and runs some queries. A collection of documents are archived using WinZip 8.1. The queries' results are imported into a spreadsheet using Excel 2002 and are used to generate graphical charts."

http://anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2073&p=7

thats a synthetic benchmark but it maybe useful for your situation. the performance increase from a raptor is not often worth the price increase. i'd only recommend a raptor to someone with a huge budget looking for some where to spend their money.

 

[GamingMouse]

if you didn't want to do raid you could simply just remove a drive from my suggestion.

So you would say your suggestions for mobo and processor and superior to the ones I listed as well? A small point: I think (but couldn't tell for sure) that the mobo I listed had built in wireless, whereas your suggestion. This probably shouldn't be an issue I'm guessing, but would you mind discussing it?

Thanks..

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: shoRunner
"The user opens a database using Access 2002 and runs some queries. A collection of documents are archived using WinZip 8.1. The queries' results are imported into a spreadsheet using Excel 2002 and are used to generate graphical charts."

http://anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2073&p=7
.

Also, unless I'm interpreting the results here wrong, it seems that the Raptor is outperforming the Seagate by about 32%. That is significant, no?

 

[shoRunner]

3rd one down. in certain things it will be faster but if you look at the entire article its maybe overall 10% faster maybe