What Determines Speed?

[GamingMouse]

dodgybob,

thanks for the info. do you have any recommendations of your own as far as RAM + MOBO + CPU (exact models)?

also, what does everyone think of the suggestions here:

http://arstechnica.com/guides/buyer/system-guide-200504.ars/3

 

[Matthias99]

I have about $1200 to spend. The DBs will me up to 500MB. End of Day backups are acceptable.

One seemingly knowledgable source I spoke with recommended the following, and EMPHASIZED that I should not waste money on 2G of RAM -- 1G was enough. I really would like feedback on that one point. Also any of the other suggestions. Here are his suggestions below (comments his, not mine):

Just for reference, a 500MB database is relatively small as far as database processing goes. Hell, you can fit that into RAM on many desktop systems these days, essentially removing disk performance as a bottleneck entirely.

1GB of RAM is probably enough if you're working with a single DB of about that size (that would give you room for the database, OS, and whatever you're using to do the processing to all fit in RAM). If you plan on working with multiple databases simultaneously, or with working with larger ones at some point, buying 2GB of RAM now is probably not a bad idea (since prices are pretty decent ATM). Otherwise, put the extra cash towards a faster CPU.

Intel CPUs tend to be faster at doing lots and lots of really, really simple things sequentially, and if the database fits entirely in RAM, the extra bandwidth provided by high-speed DDR2 might help. However, if you are doing more complex queries and searches, to the point where it's basically no longer a simple sequential operation, an Athlon64 might perform a lot better. It would help if you gave us more details (what application(s) you're using, some general idea of what kinds of queries you will be running, etc.) Also, a Socket939 Athlon64 system can be upgraded to use dual-core CPUs without much fuss, whereas it requires a whole new motherboard on the Intel side (of course, if your programs are not multithreaded, this won't help much).

The other posters' comments have been pretty much right on. You don't need a 450W PSU, though... maybe 300-350W (although you should get a brand-name PSU with a good amperage rating on the +12V line). The very fastest CPUs use about 100-110W, and you aren't planning on putting much else with a high power draw in this system.

also, what does everyone think of the suggestions here:

http://arstechnica.com/guides/buyer/system-guide-200504.ars/3

The CPU/MB/RAM is fine... the other parts are overkill for essentially a workstation.

 

[GamingMouse]

Matthias,

Thanks for the comments. It is quite possible that I'll be working with DBs over 1G in the near future. In this case, the extra RAM will justified, correct?

 

[dhoytw]

Dude go with Intel if you aren't using the machine for gaming purposes....these people don't know what they are talking about if the are telling you to use AMD for database queries.

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: dhoytw
Dude go with Intel if you aren't using the machine for gaming purposes....these people don't know what they are talking about if the are telling you to use AMD for database queries.

Interesting... a few people who seem to know are saying this.... what would your suggestion for my system be (mobo + cpu + ram + vid card)?

 

[Lovehandles]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
Interesting... a few people who seem to know are saying this.... what would your suggestion for my system be (mobo + cpu + ram + vid card)?

You're making this out to be a bigger issue than necessary. You've already been given very good advice by people like DaveSimmons & Matthias99 - guys like these have been around the board a long time, and judging by the quality of their posts, I think they are very knowledgeable people. No offense to Dhoy, but he's got 500+ posts and joined 5 mos ago.

If it were me, i'd go with the first two guys. It's your call champ.

Edit:
BTW, if you had any doubts about Dhoy read this thread. I hope you know who you're getting your advice from.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=1577874

 

[GamingMouse]

Edit:
BTW, if you had any doubts about Dhoy read this thread. I hope you know who you're getting your advice from.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=1577874

Ooof.. That ain't good.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse

Edit:
BTW, if you had any doubts about Dhoy read this thread. I hope you know who you're getting your advice from.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=1577874

Ooof.. That ain't good.

This thread should be required reading...

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
Matthias,

Thanks for the comments. It is quite possible that I'll be working with DBs over 1G in the near future. In this case, the extra RAM will justified, correct?

Definitely. If you start running out of RAM and going to a swapfile, everything will slow down -- a *lot*.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

$305 dollars for 2gigs PC3200 2-3-2-5 (2 1gig modules!) timings!

This is 2gigs of ram for the cost of high end 1gig of ram. The timings are great for 1gig modules at PC3200 and the price is right.

Since it is only two modules you can keep the 1t timings and PC3200 rating even for the Winchester

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33
$305 dollars for 2gigs PC3200 2-3-2-5 (2 1gig modules!) timings!

Thanks. Now what constraints does this RAM put on the mobo or CPU I select? Is it made specifically for certain mobo or CPUs? Would you mind explaining a little about how this works, as I'm not even sure my question makes sense.

Thanks,
gm

 

[tiap]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
I'm getting a new computer with essentially the single goal of fast computing power. One thing I'll be doing with it is performing complex queries on large local databases. I've been getting conflicting advice on what my priorities should be, and I'd like to clear things up.
gm

Hey people.
Isn't the network going to be the bottleneck? It sounds like it's not a single machine.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse

Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33
$305 dollars for 2gigs PC3200 2-3-2-5 (2 1gig modules!) timings!

Thanks. Now what constraints does this RAM put on the mobo or CPU I select? Is it made specifically for certain mobo or CPUs? Would you mind explaining a little about how this works, as I'm not even sure my question makes sense.

Thanks,
gm

This memory is perfect for any AMD64 system you purchase. I would reccomend a NFORCE 4 PCI-ex at this point for future dualcore options. This memory should work with any NFORCE 4 939 board.

IF you want Intel, this is DDR1 memory and their newer motherboards require DDR2. Good luck finding 2 gigs of DDR2 memory with halfway decent latencies for anywhere near that price.

Don't be fooled by the faster sounding DDR2 memory. Due to higher latencies the DDR 2 is much slower clock for clock than DDR1

DDR 1 PC3200 will equal DDR2 PC 5400 with high latencies in most cases

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

Originally posted by: tiap

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
I'm getting a new computer with essentially the single goal of fast computing power. One thing I'll be doing with it is performing complex queries on large local databases. I've been getting conflicting advice on what my priorities should be, and I'd like to clear things up.
gm

Hey people.
Isn't the network going to be the bottleneck? It sounds like it's not a single machine.

I believe local databases refer to databases on the host computer so network bandwidth doesn't come into play. I could be wrong though

 

[shortylickens]

Dude, seriously, you're a newb!
I recommend reading some more articles on www.anandtech.com and learn a little before you start making your own computer.
I had to make a few expensive mistakes myself. But you can do as you like.

Go easy on forums.anandtech.com for a while.

 

[dodgybob]

Matthias99 is right about a 450w psu being overkill, i got a bit exciteable when i was writing my previous post! I also agree with his assessment about the cpu, motherboard and ram. As Lovehandles said, he really knows his stuff.

I'll concentrate my further input on the other components of the setup.

I guess a case like the antec 3700bqe would suit you fine and it comes with a 350w psu. Solid case and good quality psu. I wonder if you might need something bigger in the future though depending on hard drive decisions.

I would also make a note of what is bundled on the motherboard and hence you wont need to buy for this setup. There will be a decent ethernet port on it and integrated sound too. So no need to buy a sound card and if you buy speakers just get a cheap pair.

Any thoughts about how much hard drive space you need? If you don't use anything fancy like raid then you might want to get 2 hard drives, one for the operating system and programs and another for your data.

How will you backup your data? Is there a system already in place where you work which will extend to this pc?

 

[shoRunner]

i've never seen any database queries benchmarks for anything but opterons or xenons, but anyways logically you're going to want to spend most of your money getting the fastest processor as that will benefit you the most. i would also think that losing your database due to a bad hard drive would be bad so...

msi 939 motherboard, has raid 5. $145
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130484

gig o'ram $100
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231012

(3) 120gb seagate hard drives $94(x3) for raid5
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231012

radeon x300se $60
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102415

nec 3520a $50
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152035

seasonic 400w $80
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/400tornado.html

a64 3800+ $378
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103465

antec case $45
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129152

total about $1140

 

[dodgybob]

Good suggestions shorunner, just wondering if gamingmouse decides to go for 2gb of ram whether it might be an idea to drop down to a 3500+ cpu to stay in budget.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Lovehandles

Originally posted by: GamingMouse
I have also been told that P4s are more reliable than Athlons, and that I should stay away from Athlons.

Is this true?

Pure garbage. That must be why the company (AMD) has been around for 35+ years.

Amen. AMD's Athlon XP and Athlon 64 processors have been making Intel look silly for almost three years now.

 

[GamingMouse]

Originally posted by: dodgybob
Good suggestions shorunner, just wondering if gamingmouse decides to go for 2gb of ram whether it might be an idea to drop down to a 3500+ cpu to stay in budget.

bob. i'm still on the fence about this. some people are telling me 2G is overkill, others are not. for the immeidate future, my DBs will probably not exceed 500M, but in the not too distant future they easily may. The move may be to buy a board that will accept more RAM as I need it, and start with 1G.

As far as backup, I was planning to just use my current laptop, and possible buy an external HD if i need more. What other option do you recommend? Setting up a RAID seems daunting, although I am hiring someone to help me physically put everything together.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: GamingMouse

2--INTEL P4 3.6 GHz P4 LGA775 3.4HZ 800FSB 2MEG model 650

intels new CPU that has dual CPUs inside,, like having 2, and 2 megs cache.. kicks the crap outta the AMD and will last for years... and be fast.. and designed for professioanl applications NOT GAMES.. and will do multiple things at once..

He told you it has dual CPUs inside?

And that it "kicks the crap outta the AMD"?



And you think this guy is knowledgable?

Never mind the fact that he's dead wrong on both of those counts, but dodgybob already pointed out the rest of what I would add, so I won't bother.

A little advice: Spend more time here, and less time talking to Mr. Knowledgable. The P4 650 may have a slight advantage in the database arena, but you are making BIG sacrifices in other areas (not just gaming, but also workstation use, content creation, and others). I hope you don't plan to do things besides database work with this PC, because if you do you'd be selling yourself short going with intel. As Matthias noted, more complex database work will generally be done quicker on an AMD Athlon 64 processor, due to the shorter pipeline and higher IPC (instructions per clock) of the processor.

Then of course there's the fact that AMD consumes less power, produces less heat (and thus is likely to be more stable) than the Intel processors.


This:

Originally posted by: shoRunner
i've never seen any database queries benchmarks for anything but opterons or xenons, but anyways logically you're not going to want to spend most of your money getting the fastest processor as that will benefit you the most. i would also think that losing your database due to a bad hard drive would be bad so...

msi 939 motherboard, has raid 5. $145
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130484

gig o'ram $100
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231012

(3) 120gb seagate hard drives $94(x3) for raid5
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820231012

radeon x300se $60
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102415

nec 3520a $50
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827152035

seasonic 400w $80
http://store.yahoo.com/directron/400tornado.html

a64 3800+ $378
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103465

antec case $45
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129152

total about $1140

Would make an outstanding system.

 

[GamingMouse]

And you think this guy is knowledgable?

For the record, I said he seemed so. As I know basically nothing about this stuff, I have nothing to go on but my impressions, and people's credentials. My whole reason for posting here is to make sure I get it right. Please understand that I am not claiming any sort of knowledge or challenging anyone. I'm just asking for help.

 

[shoRunner]

then you've come to the right place, there are many knowledgeable ppl here. and sometimes they're nice.

the board will accept upto 4gb. if you need more than that you'd need a server/workstation board.

 

[dodgybob]

Perhaps start with 1gb now and replace it with 2gb of ram later if your requirements change. If you see this system being built you will find out that changing the ram is one of the easiest things that you can upgrade and you will be able to do it yourself along the line. You could sell the 1gb of ram down the line and get 2x1gb modules to replace it.

If you are getting someone to help you put the system together they will probably be able to help you with the raid. If this is still a worry and seems too complex then i would get a 120gb seagate sata drive purely for your operating systems and programs and another say 200gb for all your data. You probably don't need 120gb for your system drive so you might want to get an 80gb drive instead. I don't know how much data you'll need to backup so choose the size of the drives to suit what your needs are likely to be.

An external hard drive could be a good option for backing up data, I have one and they are very useful. I would also burn dvd and cd backups of important data regularly. It is important to have several copies of important data, preferably in different locations. For instance if there was a fire at the office you would be able to get backup to speed more quickly if you took a copy of your data home each day. I'm sorry if i'm telling you something you already know here.

Still i would see what local support you can get with a raid setup to see if you could make a go of it. A simpler raid setup with those drive might be to have one for the system and 2 mirrored in a raid 1 for the data.

Don't worry we're not having a go at you and you are clearly having to make sense of a lot of information both from this forum and from people you have talked to. The major concern is that people you have been talking to outside this forum do not understand what they are talking about on a lot of key points. But that isn't your fault and if i was new to this sort of thing, asking people I thought might know would have been my 1st step too. The key is to do a lot of research and you're heading in the right direction.

By the way I would strongly recommend basing your final choices on the list compiled by shorunner.

 

[CalvinHobbs]

just wanna add my piece...if a 2GHZ processor is outperfroming a 3.2GHZ processor well according to me this can only mean one thing efficiency...i mean if a 2GHZ proc can perform better than a higher clocked proc well it's out there for us to see...