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what country has the lowest overall crime rate?

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Train said:
Without proof? Proof of what? High per capita gun rates, or the low crime rate?

Both are well accepted truths about Switzerland. Are you going to challenge me on those or can we move on?

Are they related? Fuck yeah they are. Go ahead and tell me how they aren't
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They're both true, but that doesn't mean one causes the other. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Take a look at liquor stores vs. churches in an area... one can find pretty quickly that as the number of churches increase in an area, so do the number of liquor stores. Now using your logic you stop right there and say either drinkers go to church, or church goers like to drink. What you're doing is taking 2 things that are CORRELATED and assuming one is CAUSED by the other. In this example the actual causation is an increase in population... more people mean more of everything (including churches and liquor stores).

You're taking 2 things that Switzerland has in common and are assuming ones directly caused by the other. Without data you can't separate causation vs. correlation.

This isn't a political thing, this is a common probability fallacy.
 
ichy said:
...ones military service weapon against intruders is almost unheard of (partially because violent home invasions are almost non-existent.)
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Gee I wonder if it's because everyone is known to have a gun in the house? This doesn't seem like a very bogus connection to me.
 
gorcorps said:
They're both true, but that doesn't mean one causes the other. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Take a look at liquor stores vs. churches in an area... one can find pretty quickly that as the number of churches increase in an area, so do the number of liquor stores. Now using your logic you stop right there and say either drinkers go to church, or church goers like to drink. What you're doing is taking 2 things that are CORRELATED and assuming one is CAUSED by the other. In this example the actual causation is an increase in population... more people mean more of everything (including churches and liquor stores).

You're taking 2 things that Switzerland has in common and are assuming ones directly caused by the other. Without data you can't separate causation vs. correlation.

This isn't a political thing, this is a common probability fallacy.
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Stop bringing in strawmen.

Guns have a direct impact on crime. It is not a random statistical anomaloy Knowing someone has a gun in thier house and knows how to use it is without a doubt, a deterrent.

To PROVE this is not a statistical coincidence, you can compare other countries crime rates and gun owenership, or in the case of the USA, each states statistics.

For example

MAINE: 2nd out of 50 states for guns/capita. 1st out of 50 states for lowest crime rate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x2269

It becomes more of a statistical anomoly when a region has low per capita ownership and low crime.
 
Train said:
Gee I wonder if it's because everyone is known to have a gun in the house? This doesn't seem like a very bogus connection to me.
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Specious argument at best. I'm sure there are many other countries in the world with higher crime rates where every house has a gun or two in it and there are several countries with violent crime rates similar to Swizerland where there are few to no guns around.

Pointing to one thing as the reason for a low crime rate is ridiculous since there would be various socio-economic factors that dictate this. Switzerland is generally a very prosperous country with low poverty and I would point to that as a bigger reason for a low violent crime rate more than the number of guns or the gun control laws.

KT
 
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KeithTalent said:
Specious argument at best. I'm sure there are many other countries in the world with higher crime rates where every house has a gun or two in it and there are several countries with violent crime rates similar to Swizerland where there are few to no guns around.

Pointing to one thing as the reason for a low crime rate is ridiculous since there would be various socio-economic factors that dictate this. Switzerland is generally a very propserous country with low poverty and I would point to that as a bigger reason for a low violent crime rate more than the number of guns or the gun control laws.

KT
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Obviously there are more factors than just gun ownership. I never claimed it was the ONLY factor.

But disregarding it when it is shown to be a strong indicator in so many states/countries is, well, bogus, in itself.
 
KeithTalent said:
Specious argument at best. I'm sure there are many other countries in the world with higher crime rates where every house has a gun or two in it and there are several countries with violent crime rates similar to Swizerland where there are few to no guns around.

Pointing to one thing as the reason for a low crime rate is ridiculous since there would be various socio-economic factors that dictate this. Switzerland is generally a very propserous country with low poverty and I would point to that as a bigger reason for a low violent crime rate more than the number of guns or the gun control laws.

KT
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I accept this as the reason.

Japan is a prosperous country and has massive amount of population density. There are like zero guns in the country and yet the crime rate is absurdly low. I still can't believe people are able to leave a bike with a simple lock on the wheel instead of bolting it to the nearest thing thats secure on the ground and not have it stolen.
 
Train said:
Gee I wonder if it's because everyone is known to have a gun in the house? This doesn't seem like a very bogus connection to me.
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Except that nowadays most of those guns don't have ammo...

People generally don't keep their service weapons in a place & state where they could get to them with a few seconds notice. Trust me, my mother's half of the family is Swiss, I know a thing or two about the culture surrounding guns in Switzerland. My grandmother still has my grandfather's old service rifle and the idea of using it for self-defense simply doesn't come up. Besides, weapons in the home don't do much to protect against violent crime on the street, and you practically never hear of random people getting mugged at gunpoint there either.
 
Train said:
Obviously there are more factors than just gun ownership. I never claimed it was the ONLY factor.

But disregarding it when it is shown to be a strong indicator in so many states/countries is, well, bogus, in itself.
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I find it very difficult to compare US states with relaxed gun laws to Switzerland; the attitudes towards guns, crime, and punishment in general are so completely different. Heck you can even see it in posts here (not necessarily the most accurate representation, but it's still a representation).

Japan goes against your argument as indicated above. They have similarities to Switzerland (affluence, low crime) but with very few guns; so it effectively removes the gun factor, yet leaves you with a similar result to Switzerland. Gun ownership and laws, if they have an impact at all, would appear to be quite minimal in countries where the other factors impacting crime that I mentioned above are working in their favour.

KT
 
KeithTalent said:
I find it very difficult to compare US states with relaxed gun laws to Switzerland; the attitudes towards guns, crime, and punishment in general are so completely different. Heck you can even see it in posts here (not necessarily the most accurate representation, but it's still a representation).

Japan goes against your argument as indicated above. They have similarities to Switzerland (affluence, low crime) but with very few guns; so it effectively removes the gun factor, yet leaves you with a similar result to Switzerland. Gun ownership and laws, if they have an impact at all, would appear to be quite minimal in countries where the other factors impacting crime that I mentioned above are working in their favour.

KT
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japan, culture.
 
Train said:
Either way, does gun [possession] per capita have an effect on crime rate?

And no gorcorp, this isnt jumping to conclusions, its more like a fairly obvious point.
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no, it isn't.

All men are trained to sue these guns as service to their country. They are issued their rifles. The culture of gun ownership is vastly different in Switzerland. It is not used to singly define "Freedom" as the rednecks of our Country are so want to do, it is a duty as a citizen as every male is a potential defender in rare times of invasion.

That, in itself, ...is somewhat specious, though. As no one would fucking invade Switzerland, anyway. It sits in a shitload of mountains. They'd just turtle up in their bomb shelters and launch their big ass cannons at your sorry ass stuck way down in the valley.
 
Depends. "Crime" is not all the same. A woman wearing a low cut shirt and shorts can be jailed in some places and that would be a "crime". Smoking weed is a crime in the US, yet other places its not.

So lawless places would have the least amount of crime as there are no "criminals". Yet a place that is anal about every little law/rule would be high in crime but could be very safe to live.
 
zinfamous said:
Swiss people hate immigrants more than sheriff Joe Arpaio does.
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Not really true, although there has been a backlash against out of control immigration into a country that is already very densely populated and has NEVER been a melting pot/nation of immigrants like the US is.
 
zinfamous said:
no, it isn't.

All men are trained to sue these guns as service to their country. They are issued their rifles. The culture of gun ownership is vastly different in Switzerland. It is not used to singly define "Freedom" as the rednecks of our Country are so want to do, it is a duty as a citizen as every male is a potential defender in rare times of invasion.

That, in itself, ...is somewhat specious, though. As no one would fucking invade Switzerland, anyway. It sits in a shitload of mountains. They'd just turtle up in their bomb shelters and launch their big ass cannons at your sorry ass stuck way down in the valley.
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LOL.

I remember visiting one of those big ass canons in the mountains. And yes, every citizen has a nice piece of weaponry in their house.

Back in the old days, their soldiers were so bad-ass in battles that it's the reason the Vatican decided to use them as their personal guard.

Beautiful country. Hot ladies. But food is tooooo damn expensive!
 
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