What could the cause of this noise be?

[jana519]

Edit: This issue has been resolved. See the update in post #20.

I have a 1990 Honda Civic 4 spd with 150K miles. It ran beautifully until last week, then it doesn't start. The engine turns over, battery is good, but it doesn't start. I'm bad at diagnosing problems, so I try Google. There's a Jalopnik page that says check for spark. So I disconnected all the plug wires, connect one spark plug, laid the metal side on the valve cover to ground it, then cranked the engine. It stopped turning over, sounds much worse.

Now the engine makes a noise like an RC car with a dying battery. Doesn't turn, sounds very weak. I realize I fucked up, but I don't know how. My impulse says "ignition coil" but I'm dumb enough to buy one and then turn out it's not the problem at all. Can anybody help me figure this out? I can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars searching for the issue. Thanks in advance.

 

[lxskllr]

You need to charge the battery first, then troubleshoot the not starting issue.

 

[jana519]

You need to charge the battery first, then troubleshoot the not starting issue.

That's been done, battery was on a 12V/2a trickle charger.

The engine turned it doesn't start.

 

[lxskllr]

You said it sounds funny though. It shouldn't sound like anything but strong, even if it doesn't start.

 

[jana519]

It makes a strange noise after I tried to crank it with the spark plug out. That's what I want to diagnose, what went wrong. I guess I wasn't clear enough since you thought it was a battery issue. Battery is basically new, I bought it last month. Car cranked fine but wouldn't start. I tried to diagnose if it was getting spark by pulling the plug and cranking, now it barely cranks and makes a strange noise.

 

[Fenixgoon]

If you're getting sparks on all 4 plugs, then the next items are fuel, air and the starter motor (given that it's a 150k car, a bad starter motor isn't unrealistic).

Does it sound like the engine is turning over at all or not really? My preliminary vote is on a dead starter motor.

 

[lxskllr]

Is the spark plug back in place? It would sound kind of gaspy if it weren't. If you cross threaded it, it could have blown out, but you should have heard it if that happened.

 

[jana519]

Thanks, that's helpful. All 4 plugs are torqued down properly, so I know that isn't the issue.

Again, to re-emphasize: car engine turned over just fine, but wouldn't start. To me, that says battery and starter motor are fine. But I don't know, I'm an amateur so I could be wrong.

I tried to diagnose the issue why it didn't start, thinking of 3 possible answers: spark, fuel, and timing. In order to test spark, I read a Jalopnik article that says pull out the plug and crank car to visually inspect. I cranked the car with 3 spark plug wires disconnected, and one wire connected to a plug laying on the valve cover to create a ground. My friend who doesn't know cars says he didn't see a spark, but I could only crank it twice before it started making a weird noise like an RC car battery dying, then it wouldn't crank. I stopped and said "Hm, something is wrong here but I don't know what."

That's where I am right now. Trying to figure out what might be the cause of the noise and why it doesn't crank properly. My best guess is ignition coil which might have shorted, but it's just a guess.

Thanks guys, I'm not ungrateful, just pretty stressed out and frustrated.

 

[lxskllr]

The noise is what I'm having trouble with. You don't need fuel. a coil, or sparkplugs to get a nice robust turnover. That leaves the battery, the starter, or catastrophic motor failure. If you're sure the battery's good, I would guess starter. That might not get it running, but it should sound better. After that gets fixed, check fuel, coil, distributor.

 

[jana519]

Hmm, I need to do another full test tomorrow during the weekend. It is possible the starter might be bad and I have confirmation bias. I have to crank it some more to really know for certain.

 

[eng2d2]

I have to guess fuel here. take the fuel hose line off and crank the motor see if gas comes out of the line

 

[jana519]

So I charged the battery on a 1A trickle charger for 6 hours. Install the battery and hook up the cables, open door chime immediate sounds. I turn the key to position I and my dashboard lights up. Battery isn't dead.

I turn the key to start, the engine makes a noise when you crank it like "ROOH" or "RUH". First time I crank it sounds like ROOH ROOH ROOH ROOH. But it won't start. Second time I try cranking, the noise slows down like rooooh... roooooh... rooooo... Much lower and slower pitch. Then 3rd time I try, it barely makes any noise, like rooo............. rooo.

Google says if a car starter makes noise but doesn't turn the engine, the starter solenoid is bad. I think my starter solenoid could be bad.

 

[lxskllr]

Sounds to me like the starter's doing what it should, but your battery's dying fast. I'd leave the charger hooked to the battery while you test, and set it to 10A. Check for spark in a dark garage to make it obvious.

 

[jana519]

Sounds to me like the starter's doing what it should, but your battery's dying fast. I'd leave the charger hooked to the battery while you test, and set it to 10A. Check for spark in a dark garage to make it obvious.

Fuck, I hope not. I just paid $85 for this battery in August. Bought it from a local shop for about $40 less than the AutoZone brand. Worked just fine when I got it. I'll be pissed if the battery is bad

 

[Pick2]

"1A trickle charger for 6 hours" won't do much to recharge a battery. A 10 amp charger for 6 hours would be a good start , but not enough to fully recharge a dead battery.

 

[disappoint]

Fuck, I hope not. I just paid $85 for this battery in August. Bought it from a local shop for about $40 less than the AutoZone brand. Worked just fine when I got it. I'll be pissed if the battery is bad

Nobody said your battery is bad, just low on charge. There is a difference.

Most people underestimate how long it takes to charge a car battery and don't charge it enough.

Typical car battery, I'll mention my own as an example, has a capacity of 60 AH (amp-hours). You might think charging it for 6 hours at 10 amps would equate to 60 AH so a dead battery should be fully charged by then, and the math works out to show this to be the case.

Except for a couple of problems. Number 1 you're not maintaining a 10 amp current to a car battery for that long. You simply can't even if you tried to. Try it while measuring the current flow and you'll see the current dropping.

But that's not all. 10 amps is a high current and will heat the battery up even if you don't feel the heat (these batteries are big and the plates can sink a lot of heat). That heat is wasted energy. So some of the energy you're sending to it is going to heat and not to actually charging it.

You can set the charger to 10 amps, but you need to keep it on for a long time because the actual current drops as it charges and at high current some is wasted.

If you want to be safe about it use a 2 amp charger for 30 hours or a 1 amp charger for 60 hours. Maybe 4 amps for 15 hours but don't do 60 amps for 1 hour that's going to damage the battery with heat and most of the energy will be wasted even if the battery doesn't get damaged.

Since your battery is very likely completely discharged, you should set the max current to anywhere from 5 to 10 amps and leave it on overnight.

 

[boomerang]

I'll take the risk of offending the OP and say that the best course of action in this case would be to have the car towed to a place that can repair it.

 

[RLGL]

I'll take the risk of offending the OP and say that the best course of action in this case would be to have the car towed to a place that can repair it.

I second the motion!

 

[jlee]

I'll take the risk of offending the OP and say that the best course of action in this case would be to have the car towed to a place that can repair it.

The OP is doing a lot better than most.

As mentioned earlier, I would ensure the battery is properly charged. If you have compression (which it sounds like you do), you probably have timing. Fuel or spark is your likely problem. Fuel can easily be checked with a fuel pressure gauge rented from Autozone/etc. When you check for spark, you'll need to have the plug wire connected and also ground the metal portion of the spark plug against something (intake manifold, etc). Simply plugging the wire in won't give you the ground you need, and your valve cover is not likely a good ground location.

 

[jana519]

UPDATE

I'll take just a minute to post updates and wind down this thread. Perhaps people might learn a thing or two. That's what the forum is for, we're here to learn, right?

1) The battery died which caused the starter motor to make the slow "roooo..... rooo...." noise. I am at fault for my confirmation bias/denial since I bought the god dang thing in August and thought it couldn't have possibly died.

Lesson learned: Never buy a discount $85 battery. If your battery costs less than $100 and comes with a rolling warranty it's likely to be garbage/suspect and will probably have issues after two months.

2) The fuel pump was bad, that's why the car wouldn't start originally. I learned this by pulling the fuel line from the intake manifold (on newer cars it's the fuel rail) and cranking the car while placing the open line in an empty bucket. No fuel came out.

Lesson learned: Test the fuel system before testing the ignition. If your car won't start and you don't have diagnostic tools, you can diagnose fuel problems by eye and ear. Diagnosing and pinpointing the ignition system takes a multimeter at least, it's easier to misdiagnose, and checking for spark can accidentally cause a short.

If you suspect the fuel pump is bad, you check the fuel pump relay first by ear. It will click open and shut when the ignition key is turned to position I and then off.

Eventually I confirmed the fuel pump was bad. A fuel pump should whir when the ignition is switched on, that's the sound of the pump priming. There was no noise from the pump at all after I listened multiple times.

Now the problem I have is 91 and older year Civics have fuel pumps that cannot be removed without dropping the tank, and this is a Colorado car which means ... you guessed it, rust on the underbody. I have to check and see if the tank is even removable at all. If it isn't then the car is likely to be totaled for all intensive purposes. Given that I bought this vehicle for $500 and it's driven me about 8K miles, I suppose I'm not too upset if it comes to that.

Let me know what you guys think or if I might have missed any important details. I think that about covers the important stuff.

 

[jana519]

I'll take the risk of offending the OP and say that the best course of action in this case would be to have the car towed to a place that can repair it.

Well normally I do take it to the shop but I couldn't in this case because it wouldn't even start and I didn't want to pay to have it towed if I can fix the problem myself.

 

[jana519]

When you check for spark ... ground the metal portion of the spark plug against something (intake manifold, etc). Simply plugging the wire in won't give you the ground you need, and your valve cover is not likely a good ground location.

Can you suggest a good grounding point?

Thank you for the input.

 

[boomerang]

UPDATE

I'll take just a minute to post updates and wind down this thread. Perhaps people might learn a thing or two. That's what the forum is for, we're here to learn, right?

1) The battery died which caused the starter motor to make the slow "roooo..... rooo...." noise. I am at fault for my confirmation bias/denial since I bought the god dang thing in August and thought it couldn't have possibly died.

Lesson learned: Never buy a discount $85 battery. If your battery costs less than $100 and comes with a rolling warranty it's likely to be garbage/suspect and will probably have issues after two months.


2) The fuel pump was bad, that's why the car wouldn't start originally. I learned this by pulling the fuel line from the intake manifold (on newer cars it's the fuel rail) and cranking the car while placing the open line in an empty bucket. No fuel came out.

Lesson learned: Test the fuel system before testing the ignition. If your car won't start and you don't have diagnostic tools, you can diagnose fuel problems by eye and ear. Diagnosing and pinpointing the ignition system takes a multimeter at least, it's easier to misdiagnose, and checking for spark can accidentally cause a short.

If you suspect the fuel pump is bad, you check the fuel pump relay first by ear. It will click open and shut when the ignition key is turned to position I and then off.

Eventually I confirmed the fuel pump was bad. A fuel pump should whir when the ignition is switched on, that's the sound of the pump priming. There was no noise from the pump at all after I listened multiple times.

Now the problem I have is 91 and older year Civics have fuel pumps that cannot be removed without dropping the tank, and this is a Colorado car which means ... you guessed it, rust on the underbody. I have to check and see if the tank is even removable at all. If it isn't then the car is likely to be totaled for all intensive purposes. Given that I bought this vehicle for $500 and it's driven me about 8K miles, I suppose I'm not too upset if it comes to that.

Let me know what you guys think or if I might have missed any important details. I think that about covers the important stuff.

I am not being critical when I say the below, this dovetails in with people learning.

Do not tell us that the battery is good when someone suggests it may be the problem. It clouds the issue. If you're asking questions, reflect on the answers before responding. The symptoms you described in regards to the noise were consistent with a run down battery. Yet your reaction was that the battery was good which was based on a feeling. Feelings might point you in the right direction but the truth, no matter how awful it is, will ultimately lead to your car being fixed.

It's much easier to check for spark before checking fuel. You removed all the plug wires. That is unnecessary. Remove one and check for spark. In fact, with a distributor like your car has, removing the coil wire from the distributor cap and checking for spark there is a better first step. Then check for spark at a single spark plug. Spark at the coil wire but not at a spark plug? Remove the distributor cap and check it and the rotor carefully.

As far as the fuel pump, you have jumped to a diagnosis. No fuel? The pump is not running? Is there a relay for the fuel pump? Why yes there is. Is it good? It's good? Is there power to the relay? What circuit feeds that relay? Is there a blown fuse or other wiring problem? Anyone can throw parts at a car and many "mechanics" are guilty of doing just that. The one certainty with throwing parts at a car is that the odds of eventually fixing it are very good.

Lastly, I can absolutely 100% guarantee the fuel tank is removable. How do I know this? Some simple logic. The fuel tank was installed when the car was built. Logic tells us that it can also be removed. Would a car manufacturer make a car that had a fuel tank that could not be removed to replace the fuel pump? A throwaway car when the fuel pump fails? What do you think?

 

[jana519]

I am not being critical when I say the below, this dovetails in with people learning.

Do not tell us that the battery is good when someone suggests it may be the problem. It clouds the issue. If you're asking questions, reflect on the answers before responding. The symptoms you described in regards to the noise were consistent with a run down battery. Yet your reaction was that the battery was good which was based on a feeling. Feelings might point you in the right direction but the truth, no matter how awful it is, will ultimately lead to your car being fixed.

That's true, I did make a mistake and I owned up to it.

It's much easier to check for spark before checking fuel. You removed all the plug wires. That is unnecessary. Remove one and check for spark. In fact, with a distributor like your car has, removing the coil wire from the distributor cap and checking for spark there is a better first step. Then check for spark at a single spark plug. Spark at the coil wire but not at a spark plug? Remove the distributor cap and check it and the rotor carefully.

How does one check for spark at the coil wire? Care to elaborate for future reference?

As far as the fuel pump, you have jumped to a diagnosis. No fuel? The pump is not running? Is there a relay for the fuel pump? Why yes there is. Is it good? It's good? Is there power to the relay? What circuit feeds that relay? Is there a blown fuse or other wiring problem? Anyone can throw parts at a car and many "mechanics" are guilty of doing just that. The one certainty with throwing parts at a car is that the odds of eventually fixing it are very good.

On the contrary. I didn't jump to a diagnosis at all, based on my tests I confirmed the fuel pump is bad. I did check the fuses. And I have no reason to believe there's a short anywhere.

Lastly, I can absolutely 100% guarantee the fuel tank is removable. How do I know this? Some simple logic. The fuel tank was installed when the car was built. Logic tells us that it can also be removed. Would a car manufacturer make a car that had a fuel tank that could not be removed to replace the fuel pump? A throwaway car when the fuel pump fails? What do you think?

Could be. You missed the point however, I was talking about rust on the underbody. It's a Colorado car. The bolts could be rusted in. The guys at the shop who replaced my master cylinder said my brake bleed nipples were frozen and they couldn't bleed my brakes without replacing the whole hub. Maybe they were lying to me.

Maybe the fuel tank is special and the bolts were coated with an anti corrosion substance. I don't know, it's certainly possible. I won't know for sure until I look.

 

[eng2d2]

UPDATE

I'll take just a minute to post updates and wind down this thread. Perhaps people might learn a thing or two. That's what the forum is for, we're here to learn, right?

1) The battery died which caused the starter motor to make the slow "roooo..... rooo...." noise. I am at fault for my confirmation bias/denial since I bought the god dang thing in August and thought it couldn't have possibly died.

Lesson learned: Never buy a discount $85 battery. If your battery costs less than $100 and comes with a rolling warranty it's likely to be garbage/suspect and will probably have issues after two months.

2) The fuel pump was bad, that's why the car wouldn't start originally. I learned this by pulling the fuel line from the intake manifold (on newer cars it's the fuel rail) and cranking the car while placing the open line in an empty bucket. No fuel came out.

Lesson learned: Test the fuel system before testing the ignition. If your car won't start and you don't have diagnostic tools, you can diagnose fuel problems by eye and ear. Diagnosing and pinpointing the ignition system takes a multimeter at least, it's easier to misdiagnose, and checking for spark can accidentally cause a short.

If you suspect the fuel pump is bad, you check the fuel pump relay first by ear. It will click open and shut when the ignition key is turned to position I and then off.

Eventually I confirmed the fuel pump was bad. A fuel pump should whir when the ignition is switched on, that's the sound of the pump priming. There was no noise from the pump at all after I listened multiple times.

Now the problem I have is 91 and older year Civics have fuel pumps that cannot be removed without dropping the tank, and this is a Colorado car which means ... you guessed it, rust on the underbody. I have to check and see if the tank is even removable at all. If it isn't then the car is likely to be totaled for all intensive purposes. Given that I bought this vehicle for $500 and it's driven me about 8K miles, I suppose I'm not too upset if it comes to that.

Let me know what you guys think or if I might have missed any important details. I think that about covers the important stuff.

Hmmm post #11