What constitutes good coffee?

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LS20

Banned
Jan 22, 2002
5,858
0
0
personality, the character that makes a coffee good, is the same that makes a beer or wine good, is COMPLEXITY.... or depth of flavor.

so different types and styles of coffee can be equally good, just as long as it doesnt taste FLAT. i use a bit of sugar, sometimes a bit of cream... as long as i can keep a balance between all the senses (sweetness taste, aroma, hint of acidity, etc)
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Good coffee is the coffee, (type, strength, and additives), you like. Try different kinds from different vendors.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Originally posted by: djheater
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Connoisseurs of most things are mislead into thinking that their accepted standards are universal, which is ridiculous. Morals aren't even standard, and people expect the taste of good coffee to be!!!

You've missed the point entirely.

I agree.

For anything we desire to rate we create standards based on consensus. Throckmorton, the implication of your position is that all measurements of quality are subjective, which simply isn't true. We can agree that some things are good and others bad, that's the basis for rating anything, food, coffee, wine, cigars, electronics....

I don't put any value in consensus as far as acquired tastes are concerned, because everyone is likely to be heavily influenced by what is established as good. It's not like quality of audio equipment, where you can measure how faithful the reproduction of a sound is, or aeronautics where you can empirically measure the dynamics of an aircraft.
I could easily see a world in which coffee we consider to be bad is considered good, and what we consider to be good is bad... All it takes is the firm establishment of those ideals to create consensus.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
True vietnamese coffee or french with hickory. single serving drip thing. glass. sweetened condensed milk. ice. awesome.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,811
19,011
136
Originally posted by: Deeko
Well, you asked for the opinion of "coffee connosieurs", they are all going to tell you you are are an idiot and ruining your coffee by putting cream/sugar in it...and don't forget that anyone on ATOT that has so much smelled coffee will define themselves as "coffee connosieurs".

I have a giant thing of Maxwell House that I got at costco for like $6. I brew my own, I put some sugar in it. That is good coffee to me. *shrug*

Now, try the absolute cheapest coffee at the grocery store. I like good coffee, but I can still get some enjoyment out of the generic stuff the office provides, but when we were out and somebody went to the store to buy some, they bought "Master Chef." Without a doubt, the worst coffee I've ever had.
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: djheater
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Connoisseurs of most things are mislead into thinking that their accepted standards are universal, which is ridiculous. Morals aren't even standard, and people expect the taste of good coffee to be!!!

You've missed the point entirely.

I agree.

For anything we desire to rate we create standards based on consensus. Throckmorton, the implication of your position is that all measurements of quality are subjective, which simply isn't true. We can agree that some things are good and others bad, that's the basis for rating anything, food, coffee, wine, cigars, electronics....

I don't put any value in consensus as far as acquired tastes are concerned, because everyone is likely to be heavily influenced by what is established as good. It's not like quality of audio equipment, where you can measure how faithful the reproduction of a sound is, or aeronautics where you can empirically measure the dynamics of an aircraft.
I could easily see a world in which coffee we consider to be bad is considered good, and what we consider to be good is bad... All it takes is the firm establishment of those ideals to create consensus.

Once again, you're really missing the point entirely. I just wrote a huge reply and then decided people are probably tired of hearing me rant about coffee, so I deleted it. Suffice it to say that you're arguing it from a point of ignorance on the topic, and you're arguing consumer preference as opposed to absolute quality; the former is always subjective, but the latter has defined metrics that are easily tested (quality of the crop, harvest, processing, roast, temperature during brewing, etc.) by tool or by palate.

 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Sweet flavor, the right blend, good consistency, proper temperature, proper mix of cream.
 

ManyBeers

Platinum Member
Aug 30, 2004
2,519
1
81
Isn't Farmers Brothers pretty good coffee? Considering the fact it has been a staple of the restaurant business for years it must have some redeeming qualities that coffee drinkers find
enjoyable.Yes/No.
 

potato28

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
8,964
0
0
Originally posted by: Mucho
I would rather drink the $1.24 a cup Tim Horton's than the $4.60 a cup Starbucks.

I don't like Starbucks coffee, but I like Timmy's coffee. Starbuck's is too roasted, doesn't taste the same as fresh ground or Timmy's stuff.
 

JaiGuru42

Junior Member
Oct 24, 2007
2
0
0
Good coffee is both objective and subjective; I really wouldn't worry about that. Here is why:

Coffee is one of those few things where (excluding Starbucks) you generally get what you pay for. This is objective, if you order a shot of espresso and get a half a shot of espresso for what, a dollar something, that would be bad coffee. If you want a months supply of coffee for $6 then you can go to Cosco and be very satisfied with what you get.

I have worked in a snoody coffee catering business for years where we regularly sell coffee for over $10 a cup. We don't charge by the cup technically, we charge by the size of the party and the distance from our office, however our rate comes out to about $10 a cup after labor and travel expenses, often more. In this business quality of coffee is defined to the very highest standards, here they are:

The first important factor is the bean. A good coffee bean should be grown in rich dark soil as opposed to clay or some such crappy dirt, even though coffee trees do very well almost regardless of soil conditions. A good coffee bean should be fresh; coffee is technically bad within a few months of being roasted. The coffee you get in the grocery store has often sat in warehouses for years; older coffee loses its sweetness. Lastly, a good coffee is an Arabica. A Robusta produces a very consistent espresso, it is difficult to ruin it, however it is consistently gross. Arabica is trickier to get right but when it is right it is very very right. Some coffee shops use a blend of Arabica and Robusta in its espresso, the Robusta aids in providing consistency even with poorly trained employees while the Arabica adds flavor. This is poor quality coffee, even Folgers uses all Arabica.

The second important factor is the grind. The consistency of the grind should be adjusted every hour or so depending on the humidity and weather. This has a huge effect on the flavor of the coffee. It is important that the tannins, acids, and oils float to the top in a dark crème. Otherwise the shot will be sharp and bitter and the actual sweet flavors of the coffee will be masked. Further, when it is very humid the machine will push coffee through the grounds very slowly, producing and smaller shot, thus less coffee (and worse coffee) than you paid for. If you order a shot and it is less than an ounce and a half, you have been cheated. A shot is a standard size, just like an eight ounce cup. If they advertise it they must supply it. If it is less that is an indicator that their grind should be coarser.

The third important factor in making lattes and cappuccinos and other beverages that everybody has suddenly decided they need so badly is the way the milk is poured into the beverage. There are many accepted methods and all are acceptable if done properly. However it should be done gently. The coffee is acidic. Milk and acid don't mix happily. If your grind is adjusted properly and your bean is good, then the acids in the coffee are primarily floating on top of the shot in a thick crème. If the milk is poured in gently this crème floats to the top of the beverage instead of mixing with the milk. This is crucial! Otherwise the milk goes rancid if not drank quickly. Also this makes the beverage far smoother and prevents the sweet flavor of the coffee from being masked by the bitter tannins and sharp acids.

Temperature is also very important for the crème to be produced.

The roast is mostly subjective, different flavors but none bad.

Starbucks is bad coffee. Their machines are poorly adjusted, employees poorly trained, crème never floated, shots barely an ounce. Always infuriating. However if it is worth four bucks to you and you can't taste your coffee behind the corn syrup anyway, go for it.

If you pay four bucks for a single cup of coffee, expect quality. However if you pay a little over a dollar for it, don't. As long as you are getting what you paid for it is good coffee in my opinion.
 

SmoochyTX

Lifer
Apr 19, 2003
13,615
0
0
Originally posted by: JaiGuru42
Good coffee is both objective and subjective; I really wouldn't worry about that. Here is why:

Coffee is one of those few things where (excluding Starbucks) you generally get what you pay for. This is objective, if you order a shot of espresso and get a half a shot of espresso for what, a dollar something, that would be bad coffee. If you want a months supply of coffee for $6 then you can go to Cosco and be very satisfied with what you get.

I have worked in a snoody coffee catering business for years where we regularly sell coffee for over $10 a cup. We don't charge by the cup technically, we charge by the size of the party and the distance from our office, however our rate comes out to about $10 a cup after labor and travel expenses, often more. In this business quality of coffee is defined to the very highest standards, here they are:

The first important factor is the bean. A good coffee bean should be grown in rich dark soil as opposed to clay or some such crappy dirt, even though coffee trees do very well almost regardless of soil conditions. A good coffee bean should be fresh; coffee is technically bad within a few months of being roasted. The coffee you get in the grocery store has often sat in warehouses for years; older coffee loses its sweetness. Lastly, a good coffee is an Arabica. A Robusta produces a very consistent espresso, it is difficult to ruin it, however it is consistently gross. Arabica is trickier to get right but when it is right it is very very right. Some coffee shops use a blend of Arabica and Robusta in its espresso, the Robusta aids in providing consistency even with poorly trained employees while the Arabica adds flavor. This is poor quality coffee, even Folgers uses all Arabica.

The second important factor is the grind. The consistency of the grind should be adjusted every hour or so depending on the humidity and weather. This has a huge effect on the flavor of the coffee. It is important that the tannins, acids, and oils float to the top in a dark crème. Otherwise the shot will be sharp and bitter and the actual sweet flavors of the coffee will be masked. Further, when it is very humid the machine will push coffee through the grounds very slowly, producing and smaller shot, thus less coffee (and worse coffee) than you paid for. If you order a shot and it is less than an ounce and a half, you have been cheated. A shot is a standard size, just like an eight ounce cup. If they advertise it they must supply it. If it is less that is an indicator that their grind should be coarser.

The third important factor in making lattes and cappuccinos and other beverages that everybody has suddenly decided they need so badly is the way the milk is poured into the beverage. There are many accepted methods and all are acceptable if done properly. However it should be done gently. The coffee is acidic. Milk and acid don't mix happily. If your grind is adjusted properly and your bean is good, then the acids in the coffee are primarily floating on top of the shot in a thick crème. If the milk is poured in gently this crème floats to the top of the beverage instead of mixing with the milk. This is crucial! Otherwise the milk goes rancid if not drank quickly. Also this makes the beverage far smoother and prevents the sweet flavor of the coffee from being masked by the bitter tannins and sharp acids.

Temperature is also very important for the crème to be produced.

The roast is mostly subjective, different flavors but none bad.

Starbucks is bad coffee. Their machines are poorly adjusted, employees poorly trained, crème never floated, shots barely an ounce. Always infuriating. However if it is worth four bucks to you and you can't taste your coffee behind the corn syrup anyway, go for it.

If you pay four bucks for a single cup of coffee, expect quality. However if you pay a little over a dollar for it, don't. As long as you are getting what you paid for it is good coffee in my opinion.
What a first post. Welcome to AT! :)
 

djheater

Lifer
Mar 19, 2001
14,637
2
0
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: djheater
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Connoisseurs of most things are mislead into thinking that their accepted standards are universal, which is ridiculous. Morals aren't even standard, and people expect the taste of good coffee to be!!!

You've missed the point entirely.

I agree.

For anything we desire to rate we create standards based on consensus. Throckmorton, the implication of your position is that all measurements of quality are subjective, which simply isn't true. We can agree that some things are good and others bad, that's the basis for rating anything, food, coffee, wine, cigars, electronics....

I don't put any value in consensus as far as acquired tastes are concerned, because everyone is likely to be heavily influenced by what is established as good. It's not like quality of audio equipment, where you can measure how faithful the reproduction of a sound is, or aeronautics where you can empirically measure the dynamics of an aircraft.
I could easily see a world in which coffee we consider to be bad is considered good, and what we consider to be good is bad... All it takes is the firm establishment of those ideals to create consensus.

Once again, you're really missing the point entirely. I just wrote a huge reply and then decided people are probably tired of hearing me rant about coffee, so I deleted it. Suffice it to say that you're arguing it from a point of ignorance on the topic, and you're arguing consumer preference as opposed to absolute quality; the former is always subjective, but the latter has defined metrics that are easily tested (quality of the crop, harvest, processing, roast, temperature during brewing, etc.) by tool or by palate.

Throckmorton, more than missing the point your argument is irrational. It's irrational because you can certainly empirically measure the aspects of a coffe which appeal to people rating the coffee. It would be interesting to conduct a study to prove or disprove your hypothesis that coffee is judged as good based on societal standards.
Here's what I would hypothesize: The majority of subjects tasting the coffee will favor a coffee of medium instensity on the scale of established norms. There will be outliers who like really strong\bitter\bright coffe, and there will be outliers who don't like coffee at all. Essentially, I think it's a pretty good bet that coffee preference is a standard bell curve.

It's that standard which establishes the norm and I would guess that it's a product of biological factors, not sociological ones, as you purport.

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: Deeko
Well, you asked for the opinion of "coffee connosieurs", they are all going to tell you you are are an idiot and ruining your coffee by putting cream/sugar in it...and don't forget that anyone on ATOT that has so much smelled coffee will define themselves as "coffee connosieurs".

I have a giant thing of Maxwell House that I got at costco for like $6. I brew my own, I put some sugar in it. That is good coffee to me. *shrug*

Now, try the absolute cheapest coffee at the grocery store. I like good coffee, but I can still get some enjoyment out of the generic stuff the office provides, but when we were out and somebody went to the store to buy some, they bought "Master Chef." Without a doubt, the worst coffee I've ever had.

this i know..the problem with the supermarket coffee is that its not in vacuum sealed containers. it just sits there forever getting rancid in those plastic bins. atleast folgers and other packaged stuff is sealed. turn over is lousy as well so it definetly is old stuff. folgers is passable for me if you use enough grounds. i once tried generic walmart coffee, that was really bad even though it claimed to be all arabica.
 

JaiGuru42

Junior Member
Oct 24, 2007
2
0
0
Originally posted by: djheater
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: djheater
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Connoisseurs of most things are mislead into thinking that their accepted standards are universal, which is ridiculous. Morals aren't even standard, and people expect the taste of good coffee to be!!!

You've missed the point entirely.

I agree.

For anything we desire to rate we create standards based on consensus. Throckmorton, the implication of your position is that all measurements of quality are subjective, which simply isn't true. We can agree that some things are good and others bad, that's the basis for rating anything, food, coffee, wine, cigars, electronics....

I don't put any value in consensus as far as acquired tastes are concerned, because everyone is likely to be heavily influenced by what is established as good. It's not like quality of audio equipment, where you can measure how faithful the reproduction of a sound is, or aeronautics where you can empirically measure the dynamics of an aircraft.
I could easily see a world in which coffee we consider to be bad is considered good, and what we consider to be good is bad... All it takes is the firm establishment of those ideals to create consensus.

Once again, you're really missing the point entirely. I just wrote a huge reply and then decided people are probably tired of hearing me rant about coffee, so I deleted it. Suffice it to say that you're arguing it from a point of ignorance on the topic, and you're arguing consumer preference as opposed to absolute quality; the former is always subjective, but the latter has defined metrics that are easily tested (quality of the crop, harvest, processing, roast, temperature during brewing, etc.) by tool or by palate.

Throckmorton, more than missing the point your argument is irrational. It's irrational because you can certainly empirically measure the aspects of a coffe which appeal to people rating the coffee. It would be interesting to conduct a study to prove or disprove your hypothesis that coffee is judged as good based on societal standards.
Here's what I would hypothesize: The majority of subjects tasting the coffee will favor a coffee of medium instensity on the scale of established norms. There will be outliers who like really strong\bitter\bright coffe, and there will be outliers who don't like coffee at all. Essentially, I think it's a pretty good bet that coffee preference is a standard bell curve.

It's that standard which establishes the norm and I would guess that it's a product of biological factors, not sociological ones, as you purport.


I just got a cup at Denny's a couple days ago and there was unidentified stuff floating in it. This is universally a sign of bad coffee. So bad in fact that it led me to question the standards to which my waffle was prepared.

Many establishments make coffee for thousands of people, and therfore it must appeal to thousands of people. Objective standards for coffee are important, they keep coffee safe for the consumer.
 

Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,666
21
81
I like my coffee with just a little bite to it. I don't like a strong after taste though. Just enough strength where it tickles my tongue but goes down easy. I don't like cream or weak coffee. Cream changes the coffee to something other than coffee...sorry.

You're not a real coffee drinker if you use cream! ;) (or you just have a bad stomach)
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
This is a nice post. I don't want to be negative about it, but I do have some thoughts/clarifications.

Originally posted by: JaiGuru42
Good coffee is both objective and subjective; I really wouldn't worry about that. Here is why:

Coffee is one of those few things where (excluding Starbucks) you generally get what you pay for. This is objective, if you order a shot of espresso and get a half a shot of espresso for what, a dollar something, that would be bad coffee. If you want a months supply of coffee for $6 then you can go to Cosco and be very satisfied with what you get.

I have worked in a snoody coffee catering business for years where we regularly sell coffee for over $10 a cup. We don't charge by the cup technically, we charge by the size of the party and the distance from our office, however our rate comes out to about $10 a cup after labor and travel expenses, often more. In this business quality of coffee is defined to the very highest standards, here they are:

The first important factor is the bean. A good coffee bean should be grown in rich dark soil as opposed to clay or some such crappy dirt, even though coffee trees do very well almost regardless of soil conditions. A good coffee bean should be fresh; coffee is technically bad within a few months of being roasted.

A few months is way, way too long unless you have very stringent packaging requirements. Even then, most would consider a few weeks to be the maximum. It sounds like you're in commercial coffee, so you probably can't keep the same requirements as a coffee shop that roasts in-house might.

Obviously, the degree of roast impacts this to some degree, but even something roasted to a City/Full City will start to show oil after a week or two. It's all downhill from there.

The coffee you get in the grocery store has often sat in warehouses for years; older coffee loses its sweetness.

Agree, but doubtful that even the cheapest brands have roasted coffee sitting in warehouses for years. Green coffee can be stored for extended periods of time without affecting the cup quality. I have personally stored a hundred pounds or more for years without any affect in the cup; again, this is green coffee, not roasted. So long as you keep control of light, pests, humidity, etc. there aren't going to be any ill effects to green beans.

Lastly, a good coffee is an Arabica. A Robusta produces a very consistent espresso, it is difficult to ruin it, however it is consistently gross. Arabica is trickier to get right but when it is right it is very very right. Some coffee shops use a blend of Arabica and Robusta in its espresso, the Robusta aids in providing consistency even with poorly trained employees while the Arabica adds flavor. This is poor quality coffee, even Folgers uses all Arabica.

Agree, but Folgers didn't always use all Arabica. I'm not so sure they use all Arabica in all their blends now either, since I'm quite certain they used Vietnamese Robusta.

Also, a little Robusta isn't always just to aid poorly trained employees. It adds a lot of body, similar to how a Monsooned Malabar might. Too much of MM or Robusta is overwhelming, but a lot of great espresso blends use some Robusta. David Schomer of Espresso Vivace uses (or at least used to) a little Robusta in his shop's espresso blends.

The second important factor is the grind. The consistency of the grind should be adjusted every hour or so depending on the humidity and weather.

Every hour? That sounds pretty extreme unless you're having some huge fluctuations wherever you're brewing.

This has a huge effect on the flavor of the coffee. It is important that the tannins, acids, and oils float to the top in a dark crème. Otherwise the shot will be sharp and bitter and the actual sweet flavors of the coffee will be masked.

This is more of a function of the pressure under which the espresso is brewed than anything else. I get 100% crema with my shots on most occasions, but it also depends on my choice of beans, roast, etc. I also brew under a lower pressure in a Moka Pot, sometimes a lever machine, etc. and don't get anywhere near the crema, but it's not bitter or sharp.

IMO, the best approach to avoiding bitterness is to 1) get a proper roast and 2) control the distribution of the grinds 3) tamp evenly 4) control the temperature. If the espresso turns blonde, it's going to be bitter.

Further, when it is very humid the machine will push coffee through the grounds very slowly, producing and smaller shot, thus less coffee (and worse coffee) than you paid for. If you order a shot and it is less than an ounce and a half, you have been cheated. A shot is a standard size, just like an eight ounce cup. If they advertise it they must supply it. If it is less that is an indicator that their grind should be coarser.

Hmm. I brew triple ristretti, so the flow of coffee is very slow and the shot is very small. A lot of the better shops pull ristretti as well, so even a double is barely 2oz. My triple is often a mere 2-2.5oz, but by your definition it should be 4.5oz.

The third important factor in making lattes and cappuccinos and other beverages that everybody has suddenly decided they need so badly is the way the milk is poured into the beverage.

More important than how you pour it (I'm a geek, so yes I do like to pour art into my cappas/lattes) it is how you "stretch" the milk. The vast majority of shops produce milk with big nasty bubbles in it. It should be fairly thick, smooth and without obvious bubbles.

There are many accepted methods and all are acceptable if done properly. However it should be done gently. The coffee is acidic. Milk and acid don't mix happily. If your grind is adjusted properly and your bean is good, then the acids in the coffee are primarily floating on top of the shot in a thick crème. If the milk is poured in gently this crème floats to the top of the beverage instead of mixing with the milk. This is crucial! Otherwise the milk goes rancid if not drank quickly.

Rancid? Say what? In my years of espresso preparation I've never had milk go rancid. I've never heard of anyone ever saying this either. A lot of people drink lattes that are completely mixed with the espresso at their leisure, and I've never heard of a complaint about rancid milk.

I agree about the crema though, but it's more of a property of the milk than how you pour it. If you stretch the milk properly it will be much denser than the espresso's crema, so it tends to float to the surface automatically.

Also this makes the beverage far smoother and prevents the sweet flavor of the coffee from being masked by the bitter tannins and sharp acids.

I content that there shouldn't be any masking going on. Sharp acids come from the type of bean(s) used and the roast. If you used highly acidic beans, then you don't want to mask it, especially in milk drinks. Also, if you brew it properly, the bitterness should be minimal.

Temperature is also very important for the crème to be produced.

No doubt.

The roast is mostly subjective, different flavors but none bad.

Mostly agree, but a "Cinnamon" roast and a French+++++ roast (the kind where merely squeezing the bean turns it into dust) could hardly be described as good. I've messed up my roast enough times to produce something of the Cinnamon variety, and it tastes like you're eating dirt.

Starbucks is bad coffee.

Meh. They use high-quality beans.

Their machines are poorly adjusted, employees poorly trained, crème never floated, shots barely an ounce. Always infuriating. However if it is worth four bucks to you and you can't taste your coffee behind the corn syrup anyway, go for it.

Agree.

If you pay four bucks for a single cup of coffee, expect quality. However if you pay a little over a dollar for it, don't. As long as you are getting what you paid for it is good coffee in my opinion.

Good coffee shops can get you a quality cup of coffee for < 2 bucks and a quality espresso for the same.

Thanks for the write-up. Don't take what I'm saying as a challenge; I just can't help but jump into a coffee discussion as pathetic as that might be :D