What causes pregnancy?

[HAL9000]

Do you think "Give me liberty or give me death" is an immoral expression ?

I've not heard that before, I don't think it is an immoral expression.

How is denying one innocent person's liberty to possibly save another person's life, moral ?

Life is more valuable than certain rights.

Unless you want to make a woman having sex a crime..

Wut?

 

[JSt0rm]

hal your views will never be mainstream. Why waste your Saturday debating them?

 

[HAL9000]

hal your views will never be mainstream. Why waste your Saturday debating them?

It's Sunday now, God's day, he want's me to debate, he told me in a dream. Also quite a few people feel the same way about abortion as I do.

 

[Sureshot324]

Some of the primary reasons why murder is illegal don't apply to abortion. If you kill somebody, you are causing a lot of pain and suffering for their loved ones. Also, if murder was legal, everyone would have to constantly live in fear of the their lives. None of this applies to killing a fetus.

 

[Darwin333]

choice. You may not like it but choice.

For one party and one party only in an issue that involves two parties. At least be accurate and say "Women's choice".

 

[HAL9000]

Some of the primary reasons why murder is illegal don't apply to abortion. If you kill somebody, you are causing a lot of pain and suffering for their loved ones. Also, if murder was legal, everyone would have to constantly live in fear of the their lives. None of this applies to killing a fetus.

Ask a father who's child was aborted against his will and see if your statement still stands.

 

[Darwin333]

Some of the primary reasons why murder is illegal don't apply to abortion. If you kill somebody, you are causing a lot of pain and suffering for their loved ones. Also, if murder was legal, everyone would have to constantly live in fear of the their lives. None of this applies to killing a fetus.

I don't believe that is why murder is illegal.

 

[Darwin333]

As a father who's child was aborted against his will and see if your statement still stands.

Are you talking about yourself or was the first word supposed to be "Ask"?

 

[HAL9000]

Are you talking about yourself or was the first word supposed to be "Ask"?

Oh my!

It was supposed to be "Ask"

Wow. One letter such a difference.

 

[Sureshot324]

I don't believe that is why murder is illegal.

Then why is it illegal?

 

[Sureshot324]

Ask a father who's child was aborted against his will and see if your statement still stands.

Then you could make a case for abortion requiring the consent of both parents, but that's as far as that argument goes.

 

[fskimospy]

Ask a father who's child was aborted against his will and see if your statement still stands.

The real reason murder is illegal is the amount of disruption it would cause to society if everyone were in constant fear of each other. No such fear exists with abortion, as it's too late for us, we're already here!

The abortion argument is dumb. If you don't agree on where life begins there's nothing more to be said. Everyone agrees that killing something is wrong after a certain level of development, what that level is differs by person. There's not some magical argument you can think of that's going to change that.

You can be mad about abortion all you want, but we here in America are going to keep aborting away at a furious pace. We like it that way. Live with it.

 

[sandorski]

It's because in the one case the woman made a choice to have sex and risk getting pregnant

In the other the woman made no choice. If the woman made no choice she shouldn't be forced to carry a baby, if she made a choice then she chose and the baby should have to die because she made the wrong choice.

That still advocates "Murder'.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Now we're just quibbling over what constitutes human life (as is usual in abortion threads).

Wrong again. "Human life" is easily identified. Any specimen that is human and alive is human life.

The point, which seems to perpetually elude you, is that it isn't enough that something is human and alive. To enjoy rights it must be a person. Like the Constitution actually says, "all persons born or naturalized in the United States" (my emphasis) enjoy the "privileges and immunities" which entitle them to their "life, liberty and property" and not to be deprived of it without due process.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

To both of these my response is: I'm not talking about legality, I'm talking about morality. I don't care about legality.

When you are speaking about rights, you are speaking about the law. It isn't my problem that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[fskimospy]

Wrong again. "Human life" is easily identified. Any specimen that is human and alive is human life.

The point, which seems to perpetually elude you, is that it isn't enough that something is human and alive. To enjoy rights it must be a person. Like the Constitution actually says, "all persons born or naturalized in the United States" (my emphasis) enjoy the "privileges and immunities" which entitle them to their "life, liberty and property" and not to be deprived of it without due process.

Seriously? You're really doing this?

What counts as human? Is any cluster of human cells considered human life? Of course not, I am unaware of any definition of human life that would encompass that. Clearly at some point a sperm and an egg transition from not human life, to human life. This really isn't up for debate... you're just wrong.

I know exactly what the Constitution says on this, in fact if you search my post history you'll almost certainly find me quoting exactly that to other people long before you have. You said that human life isn't protected by the Constitution. To justify this wrong statement you used a definition of human life that no one else uses. Congrats.

This is why I said this debate is dumb.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Seriously? You're really doing this?

Doing what? Pointing out the facts?

What counts as human?

Any material of human origin. Hair of human origin is human hair. Feces of human origin is human feces. Life of human origin is human life. This includes, but is not limited to, cell cultures, sperm samples, fetuses, persons, etc.

Is any cluster of human cells considered human life? Of course not, I am unaware of any definition of human life that would encompass that.

Obviously, you're not a biologist. Human cells are human and alive. They are absolutely human life. How is that not abundantly clear to you?

Clearly at some point a sperm and an egg transition from not human life, to human life. This really isn't up for debate... you're just wrong.

Absolutely preposterous. Human gametes are human and alive. Anything which is human and alive is "human life."

I know exactly what the Constitution says on this, in fact if you search my post history you'll almost certainly find me quoting exactly that to other people long before you have. You said that human life isn't protected by the Constitution. To justify this wrong statement you used a definition of human life that no one else uses. Congrats.

You couldn't be more wrong. Human cells live. They are life. They are human life. This is tautologically true, and yet here you are denying the plain and obvious. AGAIN the objects of rights and duties under our Constitution are persons (born or naturalized in the United States, etc).

This is why I said this debate is dumb.

It might seem that way to a dumb person.

 

[fskimospy]

Hey look, a person who doesn't know the requirements to qualify as life, and yet you want to lecture people on biology.

Life, by definition must be self sustaining, it must be capable of reproduction, it must be capable of growth, etc. All human cells individually are not capable of this, and therefore not all human cells are life. This is biology 101.

If you believe that all human cells qualify as life regardless of their circumstances, you need to go back to school.

 

[soccerballtux]

Rather than utterly hijack Gigantopithecus' thread about third party candidates, I will create this topic instead.

My argument on abortion.

A woman does not have the right to kill anyone except in self-defense. Killing your unborn child, then, is only permissable when you've been raped or in any event did not consent to the act which brought about pregnancy.

The response from the pro-choice side: Sex doesn't cause pregnancy.

Then what does? The implantation of a fertilized egg? In other news, guns don't cause deaths. Bullets aimed at hearts do.

I'd like to know who honestly believes this notion, and furthermore their justification for it.

My mind is insufficient to the task of adequately describing the incongruity of this defense, so I have to resort to metaphor.

yeah its pretty simple
1. forgot to wear a condom
2. now child needs to die.

time to make it legal to leave your children for "exposure"

 

[SilthDraeth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I'm so sick of these conservatives who want government out of their lives unless its a issue they think is important. What absolute bullshit.
That sounds pretty logical actually. You're no different. Do you want government in every single aspect of your life?

I have to agree here.

On an extreme note, if say you really wanted a kid, and your wife was pregnant, then she got mad at you for some reason and had an abortion, you would have no legal recourse. In that scenario though, you should be able to take out your wife for killing your child. (extreme logic).

Really there needs to be some sort of law. Some of us believe it is a human at conception, others not till birth. The law does need to define when abortions are allowed. And even though the woman is the one pregnant for 9 months, it took two to make that baby. So both adults views need to be considered. And you can't say "well if they guy never knew, no harm no foul" as that would be a strawman argument.

What I find quite disturbing though. When I was in the Air Force, my wife got pregnant with our first kid. She took a home test, and things were fine. But her morning sickness got pretty bad, so we were concerned and went to see the doctor.

First response from doctor to me... "I can't disclose this with you, unless your wife approves." This on the basis of women's privacy and if she wanted to get an abortion it was solely her decision.

Second response from doctor "Why did you wait so long to see us when you knew you were pregnant, if the baby is harmed, you could be charged with child abuse/endangerment by not being under medical care sooner."

So, well she could abort the child and be in her rights, and legal, deciding not to be under treatment from the doctor from day one, could be considered willful neglect, and child endangerment, and we could be in trouble.

So clearly the law needs to decide at what point they consider an embryo/zygote to be human and afforded rights under the law.

 

[HAL9000]

Then you could make a case for abortion requiring the consent of both parents, but that's as far as that argument goes.

It's definitely part of the argument I want to make, and an Important one, that's the main reason I'm against abortion where one parent want's it, but abortion from rape I see as more acceptable.

The real reason murder is illegal is the amount of disruption it would cause to society if everyone were in constant fear of each other. No such fear exists with abortion, as it's too late for us, we're already here!

The abortion argument is dumb. If you don't agree on where life begins there's nothing more to be said. Everyone agrees that killing something is wrong after a certain level of development, what that level is differs by person. There's not some magical argument you can think of that's going to change that.

You can be mad about abortion all you want, but we here in America are going to keep aborting away at a furious pace. We like it that way. Live with it.

The reason murder is illegal is that it deprives people of their right to life, it's nothing to do with mass fear.

Also I'm not in America. I'm not going to just "live with" something that is wrong happening in the world, I'm going to discuss it and hopefully be a part of the change that is happening over the world as we speak.

When you are speaking about rights, you are speaking about the law. It isn't my problem that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Nope, wrong, I'm talking about moral rights, the law is completely relative, can't be argued with or debated it changes from country to country and in America from state to state, whereas morality, also subjective, can be argued / debated and changed from person to person, it encompasses everyone everywhere and is the perfect topic for discussion. What's the point it discussing the law? If I were doing that this is what would happen:

Is abortion illegal?

No

/Discussion.

The question I'm raising is:

Is Abortion Wrong?

There is no right or wrong answer about right or wrong, only debate. No law.

 

[HAL9000]

Hey look, a person who doesn't know the requirements to qualify as life, and yet you want to lecture people on biology.

Life, by definition must be self sustaining, it must be capable of reproduction, it must be capable of growth, etc. All human cells individually are not capable of this, and therefore not all human cells are life. This is biology 101.

If you believe that all human cells qualify as life regardless of their circumstances, you need to go back to school.

Parasites aren't self sustaining and yet they are life...

 

[Carmen813]

Always entertaining watching men argue over one of the few things they don't enjoy power over...

 

[HAL9000]

Always entertaining watching men argue over one of the few things they don't enjoy power over...

That's the problem we have, men should have the power!

 

[Carmen813]

That's the problem we have, men should have the power!

I think that is ultimately what is behind a lot of this discussion. The whole debate ultimately boils down to who should have control.

There are a lot of terrible things that happen each day that people ignore. I think if we start thinking about why this one issue in particular seems to be so "special" it might reveal something about ourselves.