What causes a person to use linux?

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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,919
8,184
126
I'm not a fan of analogies since they often become overly complex and hyperbolic to convey a point.

The hardware is the corolla I assume. No one is really arguing about the hardware. At the end of the day the hardware is capable of what the hardware is capable of no more no less.

Cars are not a great point of comparison since there is nothing that can represent the community support tied to an operating system.

At the end of the day, we can say definitively that the linux desktop has much less support than windows desktop even if we the UI were exactly the same.

Windows for mobile is a completely different story. It's almost flip flopped with linux (android) there.
The analogy was to say you can use your basic Corolla with basic features, or turn it into a Porsche with advanced features. There's a reason most supercomputers use the Linux kernel.

I don't want proprietary software support. If I wanted that, I'd just use Wimdows.
 

Lean L

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2009
3,685
0
0
Because Windows doesn't interact/interface as well with Linux servers. So if you admin those a lot, having a desktop OS with a terminal, consistent file permission schema, etc., is rather handy.

Windows permissions are insanely complex compared to linux I agree. I don't see why admining linux would cause any issues though...

You ssh into linux from windows with one program instead of typing ssh user@host.

Not that much of a stretch.
 

Lean L

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2009
3,685
0
0
I don't want proprietary software support. If I wanted that, I'd just use Wimdows.

I'll take that. Different use cases for different folks I guess. Developer adoption is definitely something I want. Different people have different philosophies.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
There's definitely a learning curve for linux. I use linux for work. The shell scripting is great for a developer. It's easy to streamline a process or easily edit many lines of code on many files at once. But installing certain things is a major PITA. There are no executable wizards that you could easily double click and follow the on screen directions. Many software packages require multiple dependencies, require compilation, or have obscure errors that can take lots of googling to work out. Also many of the installation directions expect you to know certain things. For example, to install certain things, you have to add additional sources to your apt-get whatever thing, and that had obscure folder names that I later found out corresponded to the OS build version. As a linux noob, I had no idea what trusty, saucy, or quantal meant, so I didn't choose the right folder and had more error messages. Eventually after asking around, I finally got it worked out.
 
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yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,407
39
91
Windows is the porsche. Linux is like the corolla you can turn into a drag car if you have 5 years and a bunch of time and money. But until you spend that you have a corolla. Without a stereo or power steering or power windows.

Haha spot on. :biggrin:
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
15,098
5,657
136
Giving out the free upgrades though is smart on Microsoft's part. It gets everybody working on the same page.

You know, there was some talk that Intel is paying some of the tab for this promotion. And it makes sense - they so badly need Windows 10 to be a success to drive corporate upgrades.
 

Lean L

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2009
3,685
0
0
Haha spot on. :biggrin:

Linux has a different usage philosophy. As someone who uses linux for servers only, I can understand the frustration but also realize that once you get linux, you get linux (not talking about UI here).

If we go with the analogy, linux is like a good customization platform (corvette? I don't know as much about car modding) where they give you a shell with almost nothing on it but also give you a garage full of high end parts for you to swap out as you please. You can probably smoke the windows porche from factory due to the light weight but there's a lot to be desired on a feature perspective. I love this for servers (lightweight, efficiency, reliability, speed matters). I don't see myself ever running a linux desktop... since why when I can buy a porche with all the features already?
 
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Oct 25, 2006
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I’d just like to interject for moment. What you’re refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!
 

mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,501
12
0
You know, there was some talk that Intel is paying some of the tab for this promotion. And it makes sense - they so badly need Windows 10 to be a success to drive corporate upgrades.

Apple has been doing this for a little while now. I always laugh though when I see a Mac in the corporate world that's still running Lion or Mountain Lion. Happens more often than not. I really have to restrain myself not to just go in there and upgrade them all.

The sad part is that Yosemite patches several critical security flaws.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,332
12,559
126
www.anyf.ca
TBH I sometimes feel I'm limiting myself with Linux, as there's lot of stuff that's just inferior, such as the horrible permission system that lacks proper permission inheritance or the fact that it goes by user/group id even across the network, and not the password (piss poor security there) without doing some convoluted changes involving several different programs. Gimp sucks compared to photoshop as well, it's gotten better, but it's still inferior. Multi monitor support is quite lacking, and requires lot of workarounds to get working. etc

On the other hand, I look at how all over the map Microsoft has been, I rather not be part of it. 7 good, 8 horrible, 9? Just skip it for shits and giggles. 10? It looks like it might be better.... but bottom line is, you're at their mercy all the time. It also seems they're really pushing the cloud stuff. I don't want my computer to connect to or rely on any server unless I specifically tell it to, short of doing updates, and even then, I always do those manually. I like being under control of what's going on my computer.

At some point I need to learn more system side programming so I can actually take full advantage of the fact that I'm free to change what I want in Linux.
 
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dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
It's free and sometimes you are just tired of the BS from MS or Apple.

Still, it's subpar for daily use.

At some point I need to learn more system side programming so I can actually take full advantage of the fact that I'm free to change what I want in Linux.

Just run Linux in a VM.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,394
5,841
136
i heard on slashdot that 2015 is the Year Of The Linux Desktop

funnily enough, i have heard this every year for at least the last 17 years
 

xaeniac

Golden Member
Feb 4, 2005
1,641
14
81
Xubuntu for older machines. Usemlinux due to the cost,\performance, etc. Don't see why basic users that only browse don't use it
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,445
126
i heard on slashdot that 2015 is the Year Of The Linux Desktop

funnily enough, i have heard this every year for at least the last 17 years

When it happens, it won't be called Linux anymore. It will likely be an OS like Android or iOS with a friendly user interface and a Linux kernel.

Sorry, but most of the user interfaces offered by the various Linux distributions suck. I think that they will continue to suck until the developers realize that the average user is afraid of the command line and are NOT willing to go there to make changes when there is no easy way to make that change from the GUI.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
There's definitely a learning curve for linux. I use linux for work. The shell scripting is great for a developer. It's easy to streamline a process or easily edit many lines of code on many files at once. But installing certain things is a major PITA. There are no executable wizards that you could easily double click and follow the on screen directions. Many software packages require multiple dependencies, require compilation, or have obscure errors that can take lots of googling to work out. Also many of the installation directions expect you to know certain things. For example, to install certain things, you have to add additional sources to your apt-get whatever thing, and that had obscure folder names that I later found out corresponded to the OS build version. As a linux noob, I had no idea what trusty, saucy, or quantal meant, so I didn't choose the right folder and had more error messages. Eventually after asking around, I finally got it worked out.

While it does not use the Linux kernel, and is in fact an off-shoot of FreeBSD, Darwin/OS X is basically the combination of the two. :awe: It CAN guide your hand, but if you wish, aside from a few different conventions for shell commands, you can basically do everything you would in Linux in a bash shell. Whenever I do anything complex, I try to do as much in bash as I can to try and build up my Unix CLI knowledge, because it's easily transposed to Linux, provided you research how the syntax and command conventions differ, but remarkably, the difference is quite minimal.


It may be if Windows 10 sucks hard enough.
The only problem is lack of gaming on Linux.

Windows 10 will be doing the exact opposite of sucking hard.

Frankly, I can understand the fuss with Windows 8, but I don't see it myself. A minor adoption of new interfaces but otherwise everything you knew in Windows is still there, but like previous versions of Windows, it may have moved or you get to it slightly different. Under the hood, it's a freaking fantastic OS, very powerful, and very efficient compared to past NT 6.x releases (Vista and 7).

Windows 10 I do believe will have NT 10.0, but if it is not changed to the 10.0 version number, it will be 6.4. From what I've seen, it's terrific already, and is including more powerful features and should be that much better to use. Now it'll have all the value of the new way of things with the approach of the old way of doing things, plus true multi-platform support, and wide-ranging developer support for iOS and Android applications. (which SHOULD mean, any Android or iOS apps ported through this method can run on a PC desktop. :D)
 
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Crusty

Lifer
Sep 30, 2001
12,684
2
81
I've been using Windows since the 3.1 days and I've been using Linux since 1998. I'm not sure why they have to be exclusive. I use the right tools for the job and DGAF what other people think of my OS choice. It's not like I'm running a Mac or something stupid.

Sometimes I'll go a year without booting into Linux and other times I'll spend 99% of my time in Linux. Now that gaming has picked up in the Linux scene I find myself wanting to spend more time in Linux.
 

tfinch2

Lifer
Feb 3, 2004
22,114
1
0
TBH I sometimes feel I'm limiting myself with Linux, as there's lot of stuff that's just inferior, such as the horrible permission system that lacks proper permission inheritance or the fact that it goes by user/group id even across the network, and not the password (piss poor security there) without doing some convoluted changes involving several different programs. Gimp sucks compared to photoshop as well, it's gotten better, but it's still inferior. Multi monitor support is quite lacking, and requires lot of workarounds to get working. etc

On the other hand, I look at how all over the map Microsoft has been, I rather not be part of it. 7 good, 8 horrible, 9? Just skip it for shits and giggles. 10? It looks like it might be better.... but bottom line is, you're at their mercy all the time. It also seems they're really pushing the cloud stuff. I don't want my computer to connect to or rely on any server unless I specifically tell it to, short of doing updates, and even then, I always do those manually. I like being under control of what's going on my computer.

At some point I need to learn more system side programming so I can actually take full advantage of the fact that I'm free to change what I want in Linux.

For permissions use ACLs. Much more control than standard chown/chmod.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
When it happens, it won't be called Linux anymore. It will likely be an OS like Android or iOS with a friendly user interface and a Linux kernel.

Sorry, but most of the user interfaces offered by the various Linux distributions suck. I think that they will continue to suck until the developers realize that the average user is afraid of the command line and are NOT willing to go there to make changes when there is no easy way to make that change from the GUI.

To be fair, many of the recent distros may have fairly uninspired UIs, but they do make it very much possible to never touch the command line if you do not wish to get your hands dirty. Linux Mint and Ubuntu both make it very easy to ignore anything but GUI, unless you want to do something that is not part of the mindset of the developers of those distros. Which is not at all different from any other OS: if you follow their guidelines and/or submit to the will of the developer of said OS, you adapt and make do with what you can. If you wish to try to break free from those rules, you usually can, with some work, or at least you better know how to accomplish some magical feats regardless of the type of interface.

However, I do agree, a modern GNU/Linux distro will not become a runaway desktop hit that even so much as steps on the heels of OS X market share, let alone Windows.

However, take the Linux kernel, fork it (really, give it a good ol' forking, make it forget where it came from! :D), and incorporate it into a new OS that, while sharing basic tenets, is really wholly unlike all other variations.

Basically, take Linux and make a new Mac OS X out of it. Darwin is basically a fork of FreeBSD, and that's just the kernel - Apple then heavily develops the heck out of the rest of the OS to make it quite unlike any other *nix OS out there, once you ignore the basic tenets of its ancestry. Which is to say, it still has the X Server (or similar) and Bash and *nix permission scheme and etc etc etc, but using it on a daily basis does not lead to the head-banging that daily desktop use of other *nix systems would be, at least for those who aren't at all familiar with those.

A typical user can jump into OS X with cold feet and, eventually, warm up to it and adapt. Said typical user would probably drown with any other typical *nix distro, regardless of the choice of GUI.

Google is basically taking a Linux fork (I don't think it's the same Android kernel, it could be) and combining that with Chrome to produce ChromeOS. It isn't that much of a stretch to take the modern design tenets of a comfortable user experience, develop a strong developer ecosystem and make it easy to install these apps, remove the barrier of confusing dependency chains, package managers, and repositories, and create a dependable but user-friendly OS.

But there is little motivation to truly do this. Google would be the only one to truly take the next step with ChromeOS and make it a more fully-functional desktop OS. In truth, the only other player even interested in making Linux easier to use is Valve with the SteamOS, which I believe is a Debian/Ubuntu distro that is heavily customized, with the ultimate goal of keeping the user out of the general Gnome GUI, as I think they'll put applications entirely within the Steam UI to accomplish what most users of SteamOS would want to do. That obviously is not the gateway to Linux as a common desktop, that's a very specialized use case, but it does demonstrate the point: a company needs a financial motivation to truly get their very specific Linux or Linux-based OS to become widely adapted. Canonical and the like try with easier-to-use GNU/Linux, but, frankly, I don't believe that approach will ever take the world by storm.

That's why Unix as a whole never went anywhere until Apple and NeXT found a strong purpose with a specific way of doing things (can't remember who truly did it first...). OS X remains entrenched in the creative design world very much due to the core tenets of the platform, no other platform brings printing and color matching to the very front of the operation. The entire desktop management/window server of the OS was always wrapped around PostScript for early print matching requirements, and how they treat color profiles remains the best of all modern OSes, which is actually disappointing.

It's that kind of focus, that type of drive, that will determine whether any other *nix-based OS becomes a hit with any niche outside of the Admin or down-with-proprietary crowds, neither of which can sustain a company to the point that they have the revenue of the major corporations.
RedHat is probably the biggest Linux developer by revenue. They made $1.5 billion in revenue last year, netting $178 million. Canonical, by comparison, brought in $30 million in revenue (no idea regarding income).
[these facts provided by Wiki and Google]

Only groups like Oracle can push *nix to the forefront and bring in serious money, but they, again, have a very specific business and niche to serve.

None of these companies really see a need to get their product to major market share of the desktop, because there isn't much money in it. Microsoft has it dominated and most businesses buy into the model. This is where Microsoft makes their income; consumer computing is an extra bonus, and most simply follow what they use at work because it makes things easy.

GNU/Linux cannot be sold by convention, so a company like Red Hat makes money solely through official support/warranty services. Microsoft, on the other hand, usually gets a double cut: they get the revenue from PC makers who sell a Windows-loaded machine to other companies, and then they get the additional revenue from the CALs needed to utilize those desktops on a business domain, and heck, some more with ongoing support schemes of different structures. Plus they also have the Office suite with the strongest feature set and, due to strength in numbers, is the most compatible. I still cannot stand working with the free Office suites because they cannot render my Microsoft Office files correctly, and Microsoft Office is what the industry has set as standard in the workplace.

Companies simply aren't truly itching for market share of the desktop, other than Apple, and they have a physical product to sell. The OS doesn't even much matter. Because of that, all we will likely ever see is companies like Canonical who care for the niche user groups, those who hate corporations (oh, fancy that, Canonical is a corporation! lulz... yes, not all Linux distros are backed by corporations, but Debian sure as hell ain't gunning for the casual user), hate proprietary standards, or simply like to demonstrate their 1337ness and use the stuff that most users look at and run away scared, or at least force eyes to glaze over.

I think it really is only a company like Google that could make it happen, because they have a financial incentive to take over the casual user's lives: more advertising dollars, as the casual users will just take the product and run, not digging into privacy settings. I use Google products, but I don't use them when I care to hide anything from the world, so I don't care much. The convenience and free services are worth it, it is an acknowledged price for said free services. Google could very well make it happen to further their reach and increase both user data prices and ad prices due to increased advertising reach.

Which all of a sudden really brings me back to the whole "do no evil" thing. They may truly do no evil, depending on who you ask (certainly not the privacy advocate groups!), but they may very well become the corporate big brother who basically oversees our lives like various sci-fi stories have promised. They'll have the data and also be everywhere and, as a consequence of wanting to increase revenues (thanks, shareholders!), they'll have motive to penetrate us our lives more than ever.


uhh.. holy wall of text batman. D: I'll quit there. :biggrin:
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,542
10,167
126
Linux Mint is amazingly usable, as a desktop OS. Even includes Flash Player and Divx-compatible plugins for Firefox.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,332
12,559
126
www.anyf.ca
Yeah I'm really happy with Mint. On 17.1 right now. My only complaint is I don't really like the file manager, searching is kinda sub par, instead of getting a list, with the ability of jumping to the folder that a file is in, you just get a bunch of icons without seeing what folder it's in. You can change it, but that changes the entire file browser, not just the search window. I also preferred the screenshot utility in Kubuntu, as you had more options like making a selection etc. In Mint if you want to do that you need to open the app manually instead of using print screen, and it goes away after each screenshot. I guess beggars can't be choosers. I'm still trying to get triple monitor to work but I think it might work with a GTX 750, I just need to do more research. I don't get why there's such little info out there on triple monitor, seems now days that should be a fairly standard setup.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Using Windows is good enough for me. I ditched Windows many years ago, and only came back to it when I started to get the video game itch, again. Without that hobby, I wouldn't be running it on anything I own. As it is, I spend a fair amount of time in it while running Windows on the hardware.

Windows is the porsche. Linux is like the corolla you can turn into a drag car if you have 5 years and a bunch of time and money. But until you spend that you have a corolla. Without a stereo or power steering or power windows.
Does Porsche make push lawn mowers? MS has basically done just that, with Windows 10 for the RPi. For that analogy, Linux is much more like an old Jeep. You can hack it into just about anything.

IIRC, it's only free as an upgrade or for Raspberry Pi users.
Just for Windows 7 users, at the moment. Windows 10 for RPi turns the RPi, which can be used as a complete desktop development computer, into an overpowered Arduino. It is not Windows as you know it, but something akin to Windows Phone, yet with no user interface (unless you tell it to run an app that you built on your PC, that has a GUI, and then that's all it does). Meanwhile, you can run a full desktop on an RPi, and even have it run decently on the RPi 2.