What Carmack Does Not Like About GeForce 3

Scott500A

Junior Member
May 9, 2000
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Below is a list of the things Carmack was not impressed with concerning the overpriced GeForce 3. Sure it is a nice card, but it is not perfect and nVidia is playing us all for dummies if we go out and pay their MSRP for this imperfect card.

The things that are indifferent:

I'm still not a big believer in hardware accelerated curve tessellation.
I'm not going to go over all the reasons again, but I would have rather seen the features left off and ended up with a cheaper part.

The shadow map support is good to get in, but I am still unconvinced
that a fully general engine can be produced with acceptable quality using shadow maps for point lights. I spent a while working with shadow buffers last year, and I couldn't get satisfactory results. I will revisit that work now that I have GeForce 3 cards, and directly compare it with my current approach.

At high triangle rates, the index bandwidth can get to be a significant thing. Other cards that allow static index buffers as well as static vertex buffers will have situations where they provide higher application speed. Still, we do get great throughput on the GF3 using vertex array range and glDrawElements.

The things that are bad about it:Vertex programs aren't invariant with the fixed function geometry paths. That means that you can't mix vertex program passes with normal passes in a multipass algorithm. This is annoying, and shouldn't have happened.

Now we come to the pixel shaders, where I have the most serious issues. I can just ignore this most of the time, but the way the pixel shader functionality turned out is painfully limited, and not what it should have been.

DX8 tries to pretend that pixel shaders live on hardware that is a lot more general than the reality.

Nvidia's OpenGL extensions expose things much more the way they actually are: the existing register combiners functionality extended to
eight stages with a couple tweaks, and the texture lookup engine is configurable to interact between textures in a list of specific ways.


I'm sure it started out as a better design, but it apparently got cut and cut until it really looks like the old BumpEnvMap feature writ large: it does a few specific special effects that were deemed important, at the expense of a properly general solution.

Yes, it does full bumpy cubic environment mapping, but you still can't just do some math ops and look the result up in a texture. I was disappointed on this count with the Radeon as well, which was just slightly too hardwired to the DX BumpEnvMap capabilities to allow more general dependent texture use.

Enshrining the capabilities of this mess in DX8 sucks. Other companies had potentially better approaches, but they are now forced to dumb them down to the level of the GF3 for the sake of compatibility. Hopefully we can still see some of the extra flexibility in OpenGL extensions.

 

Scott500A

Junior Member
May 9, 2000
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Based on what Carmack said, a lot of these new features on the GeForce 3 can be compared to what MMX was to programmers. Where if you decided to use the MMX instruction, then you would be forced to not use the FPU. The SSE instructions fixed this, but apparently, we might have to wait for GeForce 4 for most of these new features to be useful to programmers. Therefore many of the Geforce 3 features = useless marketing hype.
 

Soccerman

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I wonder if this applies to the Radeon 2?

The Geforce 3 is still a better card however some of the features that were boasted (not all) are 'limited' according to this..
 

Hawk

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2000
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And I can say the same for you, actually, all I can say is you DO like nvidia.
 

Hue

Member
Dec 12, 2000
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Enshrining the capabilities of this mess in DX8 sucks. Other companies had potentially better approaches, but they are now forced to dumb them down to the level of the GF3 for the sake of compatibility.

Hmmmm.... forced down to the level of the Geforce3. That doesn't sound good!

Wow, after reading all the above problems, I'm shocked. Looks like this card indeed has many flaws!
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Doomguy, he posted what Carmack doesn't like about the NV20/GeForce3. Doesn't mean he doesn't like nvidia.

i look forward to the release of NV20 myself. hopefully a GTS Ultra will be cheap enough to grab ($300)

If I can find an Ultra for $300, it's mine.

BTW, Scott500a, why not provide some linkage so I can check out the Carmack's words myself?
 

bestco

Junior Member
Feb 25, 2001
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RoboTECH

Scott500A did express his hatred towards nvidia, this is what he said in his original post:



<< &quot;nVidia is playing us all for dummies if we go out and pay their MSRP for this imperfect card.&quot; >>



Carmack didn't make the above comment but Scott500a did.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
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Proper linkage to JC's comments:)

It is pretty clear he absolutely hates the GeForce3, look at some of the other quotes-

&quot;The short answer is that the GeForce 3 is fantastic.&quot;

You can hear the venom dripping on that one....

&quot;I haven't had such an impression of raising the performance bar since the Voodoo 2 came out, and there are a ton of new features for programmers to play with.&quot;

Ouch, he seems to think it is a complete POS board for sure.....

&quot;Graphics programmers should run out and get one at the earliest possible time.&quot;

Yikes, you think he would be a bit kinder to all the nVidia employees.....

&quot;Vertex programs are probably the most radical new feature, and, unlike most &quot;radical new features&quot;, actually turn out to be pretty damn good.&quot;

Ruthless I tell ya....

&quot;This one is truly stunning: the drivers just worked for all the new features that I tried. I have tested a lot of pre-production 3D cards, and it has never been this smooth.&quot;

Not even the driver team can get out without his wrath being brought upon them....

There are many points he brings up on the GeForce3 that he doesn't like or is indifferent on, but the proper way to post something like this is provide a link so people can get the good and the bad. The GeForce3 isn't absolutely perfect.... gee whiz...... doesn't that just shock the sh!t out of everyone?:Q:)
 

Hue

Member
Dec 12, 2000
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BenSkywalker is right. There are plenty of both good and bad things. Some of these bad things are pretty major though.

&quot;Other cards that allow static index buffers as well as static vertex buffers will have situations where they provide higher application speed.&quot;

Hmmm....other cards provide higher application speed. Ouch!

&quot;That means that you can't mix vertex program passes with normal passes in a multipass algorithm. This is annoying, and shouldn't have happened.&quot;

I completely agree. What a HUGE mistake. Hard to understand what Nvidia was thinking!

&quot;The way the pixel shader functionality turned out is painfully limited, and not what it should have been.&quot;

Wow..... painfully limited he says.

&quot;I'm sure it started out as a better design, but it apparently got cut and cut until it really looks like the old BumpEnvMap feature writ large: it does a few specific special effects that were deemed important, at the expense of a properly general solution.&quot;

It's not a properly general solution. :(

Geez, with descriptions like these.....

&quot;painfully limited&quot;

&quot;This is annoying&quot;

&quot;shouldn't have happened.&quot;

&quot;I'm sure it started out as a better design, but it apparently got cut and cut&quot;

&quot;at the expense of a properly general solution.&quot;

&quot;Enshrining the capabilities of this mess in DX8 sucks&quot;

No wonder people are skeptical and disappointed!

It will certainly be a nice card, but it also suffers from some rather serious design flaws. No way will it be worth $600 IMO. Sorry. :(

$300-$350 maybe I would buy one. $600? Don't make me laugh! It's ridiculous and an insult to consumers.
 

MadAd

Senior member
Oct 1, 2000
429
1
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wether it works now or not, the fact its released will raise the stakes in the card market for a minimum feature build, even if whats on the gf3 is horribly underresourced now, itll be redesigned, remoddeled with the criticisms over the coming cycles

I cant wait to see what a programable radion with full fsaa will look like
 

Doomguy

Platinum Member
May 28, 2000
2,389
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Why have all of Hue's posts been anti-nvidia? The GF3 is great video card accoring to JC nothing else can touch it in speed/features.
 

Overman

Member
Mar 15, 2000
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I am so amazed at the ability of some people to personalize the quality of a video card, video card company, or any other computer product.

Posting info on a product is excellent, and helps people like me figure out what the hell is going on in the gaming world.

Personalizing that info is a waste of time and discredits ones own opinion to the point that I don't know if you are relying on facts or are just out to promote/discredit a particular product to your own end...whatever that may be.

Just MHO though ;)
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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guys, if that is what the Carmack said, then that is what the Carmack said.

We all know Carmack likes the nv20, but I find it interesting to know what the specific faults are.

nv20 will kick ass. $600 worth of ass? Probably not. RGMS, good 2d quality and a lodbias slider are 3 items that seem easy to implement that could sway my decision otherwise, but I'm betting against it.

Hopefully it won't be priced TOTALLY out of the Ultra's league, that way the Ultra will come down some and I can pick one up.

LIke I said before, $300, and it's mine!
 

Overman

Member
Mar 15, 2000
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Just to let the guys waiting for an Ultra to come down in price...you can pick up a Herc Pro (I have one) for around $350.00 retail (cheaper online?)

Then, just overclock the thing to ultra speeds...I know Anandtech had no prob doing this.

I have mine at 220 core, 433 mem....not exactly the same as Ultra but close enough to not really notice ;)

This is for those who can't wait (I'm one of them)