What can we Learn from the Amish School Shooting?

[Brovane]

As I continue to watch the unfolding coverage of the Amish School shooting. The one thing that strikes me is the level of love and forgiveness that the Amish have. Within hours of the shooting several Amish had already visited Robert's wife Marie (The wife of the school shooter) and to counsel her in her grief. One family, of one dead child had even invited Marie to the funeral of their daughter that had been killed by Marie's husband. The Amish leaders have insisted that a fund be setup for the Marie and her three children. There has been no hate our pointing of fingers by the Amish at anyone even the widow of the killer. All that has come out from the Amish is a love of God and forgiveness. All religions around the world should pay close attention that true worship of the Lord means forgiveness and love for our fellow Man not hate and violence.

GB

 

[judasmachine]

these so called christians could learn a lot from them.

revenge is for children.

 

[DealMonkey]

Well those batshit freaks over at the Westboro Baptist Church (you know, the ones who protest gays at military funerals?) seem to think that these innocent Amish girls deserved to die and were punished by an angry god.

Yes, you read that correctly

Oh brother. :disgust:

 

[Specop 007]

The Amish really do hold themselves to a higher standard.

I think we could learn alot from them.

 

[ahurtt]

I learned that contrary to my previously held belief, Amish people are not a race of bullet-proof "superman" people bent on living in seclusion and secrecy until such time that their numbers were great enough to acheive their goal of world domination.

 

[43st]

I grew up in an Amish and Mennonite area in PA. It's a completely different world from what we know. Even growing up within miles you still have no idea about the details of their culture, at least I didn't.

Wired had a great article on this a few years ago. Link

 

[Madwand1]

I'm a complete outsider, but it seems to me that one of the biggest, long-term, problem faced by the Amish is their limited gene pool, which is increased by the general outflow and lack of inflow into the community.

Perhaps this terrible event will have some positive outcome in exposing the values of the Amish to the outside world. Perhaps some people on the outside have that sort of interest and potential commitment to join the community and perhaps some of them will even be deemed fit to do so.

Of course nobody on ATOT has that particular sort of commitment, so this is almost unimaginable on both sides -- the Amish acceptance of outsiders, and the outsiders willingness to give up technology, etc..

 

[Kwaipie]

While what happened was certainly tragic, the Amish are not as innocent as people make them out to be. They have some pretty screwy ideas of justice within their community. Historically, there is no teaching of sex education so when an Amish girl is repeatedly raped by a family member, she doesn't realize that this is wrong. After years of abuse, she finally went to the church elder who "punished" the brother by excluding him from church activities for 3 weeks. When another of her brothers started the same routine with her 6 year old sister, she finally had enough and went to the sheriff. This basically banished her from the Amish community, she left. The town people were in actual mourning for the accused brother having to face punishment from outside the community. No remorse was shown for the victim.

I fully realize that this is the exception and that they are pacifists and what I think Christ would participate in if he were here.

 

[techs]

What can we Learn from the Amish School Shooting?

That God hates the Amish?

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Madwand1
I'm a complete outsider, but it seems to me that one of the biggest, long-term, problem faced by the Amish is their limited gene pool, which is increased by the general outflow and lack of inflow into the community.

Perhaps this terrible event will have some positive outcome in exposing the values of the Amish to the outside world. Perhaps some people on the outside have that sort of interest and potential commitment to join the community and perhaps some of them will even be deemed fit to do so.

Of course nobody on ATOT has that particular sort of commitment, so this is almost unimaginable on both sides -- the Amish acceptance of outsiders, and the outsiders willingness to give up technology, etc..

Give up my Tivo? Oh, hell no!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Brovane
Topic Title: What can we Learn from School Shootings?

American Society is so fcked up we need to design schools like prisons in reverse.

Have to lock up the children to keep the criminal element out.

Every citizen must be armed with at least a .38 to take out said criminal element since the Judicial system is too busy with frivilous lawsuits.

Welcome to Mad Max America style.

 

[Vic]

The thing about the Amish is that they are not poisoned by daily media brainwashing. They don't live in our frantic, anxious world of overhyped fear, distrust, and discontent. To them, this was just a terrible but pointless tragedy, but they will heal themselves with the rituals of church, family, and community, which will in the end turn tragedy into a blessing, without the media devil on their shoulder telling them that hate and fear should drive them to find someone to blame and punish.

That's the lesson we can learn from them.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic
The thing about the Amish is that they are not poisoned by daily media brainwashing. They don't live in our frantic, anxious world of overhyped fear, distrust, and discontent. To them, this was just a terrible but pointless tragedy, but they will heal themselves with the rituals of church, family, and community, which will in the end turn tragedy into a blessing, without the media devil on their shoulder telling them that hate and fear should drive them to find someone to blame and punish.

That's the lesson we can learn from them.

As nice as it may be to admire those not poisoned, the poisoned have more to learn from the poisoned who have healed than those who have never been poisoned. It is the Zen fact that in the beginning of the journey mountains are mountains and then they are not till they become mountains again. Only those who make the whole journey are immune to poison.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic
The thing about the Amish is that they are not poisoned by daily media brainwashing. They don't live in our frantic, anxious world of overhyped fear, distrust, and discontent. To them, this was just a terrible but pointless tragedy, but they will heal themselves with the rituals of church, family, and community, which will in the end turn tragedy into a blessing, without the media devil on their shoulder telling them that hate and fear should drive them to find someone to blame and punish.

That's the lesson we can learn from them.

As nice as it may be to admire those not poisoned, the poisoned have more to learn from the poisoned who have healed than those who have never been poisoned. It is the Zen fact that in the beginning of the journey mountains are mountains and then they are not till they become mountains again. Only those who make the whole journey are immune to poison.

Ah, but mountains don't exist without valleys. We might not even know that we are poisoned without being able to see those who are not. Things are as they should be.

 

[Lemon law]

That the Amish have handled this tradedy with less hysteria than is the norm in America is a testiment to their religion and faith.---and I am somewhat alarmed at how many negative comments are coming out from posters who have never gotten closer to someone Amish than a fluff piece in wiki or stock footage on a news program.---but if their religion and faith gets them through this without the psycholical problems that normally follow---and they find it in their hearts to rightly forgive the actually blameless family of the shooter---its something to take a lessons from.---if God forbid---something similar ever happens to us---how do you take vengence against the dead?

But in my mind---the lesson here is that there is no making sense of the senseless---what we had was a crazy person doing something crazy---such incidents are rare---they can't be predicted--and having inordinately high levels of security at all schools may make us feel better---but it won't prevent the next one.

But for anyone trying to make sense of the senseless----get a clue---it can't be done.---and it can happen anywhere.---anywhere---mental illness is very democratic---its no respecter of race, creed, wealth, or location.---its totally random------and thats the shocker here---we think of ourselves as planners and doers---if we plan correctly--good results follow---but in
events like this---that plan falls apart and scares us---and its the randomness of it all that makes it doubly illusion shattering.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
That the Amish have handled this tradedy with less hysteria than is the norm in America is a testiment to their religion and faith.---and I am somewhat alarmed at how many negative comments are coming out from posters who have never gotten closer to someone Amish than a fluff piece in wiki or stock footage on a news program.---but if their religion and faith gets them through this without the psycholical problems that normally follow---and they find it in their hearts to rightly forgive the actually blameless family of the shooter---its something to take a lessons from.---if God forbid---something similar ever happens to us---how do you take vengence against the dead?

But in my mind---the lesson here is that there is no making sense of the senseless---what we had was a crazy person doing something crazy---such incidents are rare---they can't be predicted--and having inordinately high levels of security at all schools may make us feel better---but it won't prevent the next one.

But for anyone trying to make sense of the senseless----get a clue---it can't be done.---and it can happen anywhere.---anywhere---mental illness is very democratic---its no respecter of race, creed, wealth, or location.---its totally random------and thats the shocker here---we think of ourselves as planners and doers---if we plan correctly--good results follow---but in
events like this---that plan falls apart and scares us---and its the randomness of it all that makes it doubly illusion shattering.

Forgive me if I take exception to the bolded above but enough material on the case has leaked out to make it totally comprehensible to me. I believe I can do so based on knowing a deep and hidden truth about the self. I believe, further, that the incomprehension of people in these matters is motivated, that they do not and therefore really can't understand:

We have an individual who, probably in some religious manner, was taught to hate evil and never to do anything bad. All of his natural urges were turned into evil and driven underground. He was taught, like you and me, to hate who he really was, and to conform to an external standard. Anything or anybody who did not do so is evil and hated by God. He gets a really bad case of this and at age 11 or 12 or so his sexual urge that has no acceptance in his mind leaks out in the form of molesting two relative young girls. He carries the guilt of this hidden in his soul for years and years and holds himself in utter contempt, but his self hate is deeply hidden from him because of the pain. Then God kills his daughter and this self contempt is awakened and confirmed. He really is an evil piece of sh!t. He then goes after God to confirm the truth and pay him back.

One can't guard schools, but we can educate children on mental illness and the internal conflicts created by self hate. We can offer all children love and understanding and a place where they can deal with inner pain. We can admit and start to treat our tremendous unconscious self hate and express the fact that we have all been taught a terrible lie. We all have to come out of the closet of denial and learn to feel how deep and hidden that self hate is. We do that or we go extinct as we kill the human race for making us hate ourselves.

 

[spunkz]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Lemon law
That the Amish have handled this tradedy with less hysteria than is the norm in America is a testiment to their religion and faith.---and I am somewhat alarmed at how many negative comments are coming out from posters who have never gotten closer to someone Amish than a fluff piece in wiki or stock footage on a news program.---but if their religion and faith gets them through this without the psycholical problems that normally follow---and they find it in their hearts to rightly forgive the actually blameless family of the shooter---its something to take a lessons from.---if God forbid---something similar ever happens to us---how do you take vengence against the dead?

But in my mind---the lesson here is that there is no making sense of the senseless---what we had was a crazy person doing something crazy---such incidents are rare---they can't be predicted--and having inordinately high levels of security at all schools may make us feel better---but it won't prevent the next one.

But for anyone trying to make sense of the senseless----get a clue---it can't be done.---and it can happen anywhere.---anywhere---mental illness is very democratic---its no respecter of race, creed, wealth, or location.---its totally random------and thats the shocker here---we think of ourselves as planners and doers---if we plan correctly--good results follow---but in
events like this---that plan falls apart and scares us---and its the randomness of it all that makes it doubly illusion shattering.

Forgive me if I take exception to the bolded above but enough material on the case has leaked out to make it totally comprehensible to me. I believe I can do so based on knowing a deep and hidden truth about the self. I believe, further, that the incomprehension of people in these matters is motivated, that they do not and therefore really can't understand:

We have an individual who, probably in some religious manner, was taught to hate evil and never to do anything bad. All of his natural urges were turned into evil and driven underground. He was taught, like you and me, to hate who he really was, and to conform to an external standard. Anything or anybody who did not do so is evil and hated by God. He gets a really bad case of this and at age 11 or 12 or so his sexual urge that has no acceptance in his mind leaks out in the form of molesting two relative young girls. He carries the guilt of this hidden in his soul for years and years and holds himself in utter contempt, but his self hate is deeply hidden from him because of the pain. Then God kills his daughter and this self contempt is awakened and confirmed. He really is an evil piece of sh!t. He then goes after God to confirm the truth and pay him back.

One can't guard schools, but we can educate children on mental illness and the internal conflicts created by self hate. We can offer all children love and understanding and a place where they can deal with inner pain. We can admit and start to treat our tremendous unconscious self hate and express the fact that we have all been taught a terrible lie. We all have to come out of the closet of denial and learn to feel how deep and hidden that self hate is. We do that or we go extinct as we kill the human race for making us hate ourselves.

or we can teach people to stop molesting young girls and take responsibility for their actions. we'll send you in to deal with their self-hate while they're in prison.

 

[1prophet]

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.nypost.com/seven/10062006/news/nationalnews/_shoot_us__not_them___brave_girls_pleaded_in_bid_to_save_schoolmates_nationalnews_jennifer_fermino_and_jeane_macintosh_post_correspondents.htm">Staring down the barrel of Charles Carl Roberts' gun, 13-year-old Marian Fisher and her 11-year-old sister, Barbie, bravely pleaded with the madman to shoot them and spare the eight other girls he was holding hostage.

"Marian said, 'Shoot me first,' and Barbie said, 'Shoot me second,' " said midwife Rita Rhoads, who had helped deliver several of the victims.

"They were really trying to save the younger girls. It is a real reflection of their faith."
</a>


John 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Wheezer]

He was taught, like you and me, to hate who he really was, and to conform to an external standard.

LOL....well lets see, you will agree that molesting innocent children is wrong.

True or false?

yes at one point in history having sex with under age children was accepted, and as someone who posted before it is more accpeted in the Amish community and in some parts of the world it is still accepted.

Do you think that and inoccent young child such as one who is say between the ages of 2-15/16 should have thier orifices penetrated by a grown mans penis?

We have studies and a plethora of examples that proves what sexual activity either forced or otherwise can do to the human psyche before the mind adjusted enough through life and education to be able to make that decision.

Do you think they are capable of making the decision that that is what they want? Remember we are not talking just about teens who know what sex is, but also about those who have not yet formed any idea about the world around them.


You are right to some degree, he did hate himself, but in this case, it only proves that he knew what he was feeling was wrong and that action needed to be taken to solve the problem.

How does he do that? He actively seeks treatment and ways to deal with what he feels. He looks to others who may have an insight to deal with his emotions, he seeks help that is available to him.

Did he do that? no

Why? Because hen he would actually have to admit he has a problem, and the stigma of being a child molester was too much to bear.

He CHOSE to not only take his life but the lives of those that had no say in what he did, much like the young girls he molested many years ago. His desires were not too overwhelming if he had hid them for 20+ years.

Why do you suppose he chose an Amish school? Because he KNEW there would be no security. He had dropped off his kids at school, why not take the opportunity then?

Because this was not about opportunity, this was a devised plan. Yes he made have hated himself, but the desire to kill innocent children with the least amount of interference was more overwhelming than this "self hate"

This is not about this so called self hate, it is more about control and he wanted to be able to have one last desperate act of control before he died.

 

[Moonbeam]

Wheezer: LOL....well lets see, you will agree that molesting innocent children is wrong.

True or false?

M: How did you get so far out to lunch that you can't guess my answer to this?

W: yes at one point in history having sex with under age children was accepted, and as someone who posted before it is more accpeted in the Amish community and in some parts of the world it is still accepted.

M: It is wrong when and wherever it occurs. There are no exceptions.

W: Do you think that and inoccent young child such as one who is say between the ages of 2-15/16 should have thier orifices penetrated by a grown mans penis?

M: What I think is that you are engaging in a bit of mental masturbation to stoke your hate. You are shadow boxing with your own straw men and illusions.


W: We have studies and a plethora of examples that proves what sexual activity either forced or otherwise can do to the human psyche before the mind adjusted enough through life and education to be able to make that decision.

M: I need no study to know that truth.

W: Do you think they are capable of making the decision that that is what they want? Remember we are not talking just about teens who know what sex is, but also about those who have not yet formed any idea about the world around them.

M: You make a good case for against your imaginary opponent.

W: You are right to some degree, he did hate himself, but in this case, it only proves that he knew what he was feeling was wrong and that action needed to be taken to solve the problem.

No. He did not know what he was feeling. He did not know that he hated himself. He was filled with tremendous guilt about what he did and wanted it buried and then along came God and killed his kid. It was that I believe that brought up his self hate in the form that God hated him.

W: How does he do that? He actively seeks treatment and ways to deal with what he feels. He looks to others who may have an insight to deal with his emotions, he seeks help that is available to him.

Did he do that? no

Why? Because hen he would actually have to admit he has a problem, and the stigma of being a child molester was too much to bear.

M: Duh, guess what I have been saying. He did not want to know how bad he felt about molesting those kids when he was 12. He did not want to feel again the same self hate that drove him the first time.

W: He CHOSE to not only take his life but the lives of those that had no say in what he did, much like the young girls he molested many years ago. His desires were not too overwhelming if he had hid them for 20+ years.

Why do you suppose he chose an Amish school? Because he KNEW there would be no security. He had dropped off his kids at school, why not take the opportunity then?

M: What was buried 20 years surfaced with the death of his child. I think he killed the Amish because he believed they might be special to God.

W: Because this was not about opportunity, this was a devised plan. Yes he made have hated himself, but the desire to kill innocent children with the least amount of interference was more overwhelming than this "self hate"

No. He could not face his self hate. He thought his self hate was coming from God. He blamed God for his pain and not himself. He did not want to relive how he came to hate himself. He planned revenge on God.

W: This is not about this so called self hate, it is more about control and he wanted to be able to have one last desperate act of control before he died.

M: A desire for control motivated in my opinion by self hate.

This would all be rather obvious to you, I think, were you willing to see that what motivated him is what drives us all. He happened to have been sicker, is all. You don't what to see that your hatred of him and what he did is the same hatred that was pounded into you to make sure you never acted like him. Instead of a natural chimp love of children we were all given the law of a Wrathful God who would send us to hell if we step out of line. We were taught to hate our own evil. This split us in two and caused the good ego to hate the bad feelings we have and hide. It is our separation and hate for the self we call evil that gives that self a compulsive need to respond.

We need to educate our selves and our children about how we are so we don't split in to two selves that are at war our whole lives. We need to be able to have a safe place to find out how we feel.

 

[Wheezer]

A desire for control motivated in my opinion by self hate

and there we have it, you have no basis other than your opinion. There are no facts to back up other than your own self created ones.

I never said I hated him moon, I just think he is a sad pathetic individual who decided that he wanted to take the path of least resistance and take people with him who bore him no malice and were probably the easiest targets he could find.

we were all given the law of a Wrathful God

See, thats the problem between you and I. I don not believe that God is wrathful.

To believe that he is, you must first believe that there is one true God, I have not seen evidence of that.

Those that believe he is look at every bad situation as an act of a god seeking revenge.


Revenge for what? If he is as mighty as some believe then why not smite us all at once?

This man killing these kids did nothing for me personally. I am unaffected by it. I have an opinion yes, but will it cause me to break stride in my everyday life? no

The fact is IF there is a all knowing god, and IF he put us here and gave us free will, then he KNEW going into this what would happen from our creation to the end of time in every persons life and the life of every creature here.

In esssence what you are saying is that God has set us up. He puts the cookie out there fully knowing we will take it, and then smacks our hand when we do.

you know Moon, you think self hate is the great motivator in any given bad situation, that seems to be your only opinion. Why don't you try to step outside the box an actually see that there is much more to it than that? Then again maybe you are full of self hate yourself and that is what motivates you and therefore if it motivates you, then it must motivate all of mankind.


What motivates people when they do good deeds?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

A desire for control motivated in my opinion by self hate

and there we have it, you have no basis other than your opinion. There are no facts to back up other than your own self created ones.

I never said I hated him moon, I just think he is a sad pathetic individual who decided that he wanted to take the path of least resistance and take people with him who bore him no malice and were probably the easiest targets he could find.

we were all given the law of a Wrathful God

See, thats the problem between you and I. I don not believe that God is wrathful.

To believe that he is, you must first believe that there is one true God, I have not seen evidence of that.

Those that believe he is look at every bad situation as an act of a god seeking revenge.


Revenge for what? If he is as mighty as some believe then why not smite us all at once?

This man killing these kids did nothing for me personally. I am unaffected by it. I have an opinion yes, but will it cause me to break stride in my everyday life? no

The fact is IF there is a all knowing god, and IF he put us here and gave us free will, then he KNEW going into this what would happen from our creation to the end of time in every persons life and the life of every creature here.

In esssence what you are saying is that God has set us up. He puts the cookie out there fully knowing we will take it, and then smacks our hand when we do.

you know Moon, you think self hate is the great motivator in any given bad situation, that seems to be your only opinion. Why don't you try to step outside the box an actually see that there is much more to it than that? Then again maybe you are full of self hate yourself and that is what motivates you and therefore if it motivates you, then it must motivate all of mankind.


What motivates people when they do good deeds?

Lets see Wheezer`s dribble verses Moonbeam`s educated and well thought out opinions?


That`s easy Moonbeam - 1 Wheezer - 0

 

[fjord]

1-How to be a good Christian and follow the teachings of God.

2-That preemptive attacks are immoral and against God's law.

 

[DrPizza]

Apparently, one thing you can learn is that the Amish community is truly a community, not a collective of individuals acting in their own selfish interests.

 

[Moonbeam]

M quoted by W: A desire for control motivated in my opinion by self hate.

W adds: and there we have it, you have no basis other than your opinion. There are no facts to back up other than your own self created ones.

M: If you are going to say something about the true inner state of people which they themselves want to protest all you can do is offer what you know as your opinion. Self knowledge, psychological insight, therapeutic discovery, transformative self revelation, all these internal states and experiences produce for oneself real knowledge but not knowledge that can be transmitted other than by suggestion that you too examine yourself and do what it takes to also self discover. You will never know what Armstrong experienced on the moon, but if you are open and believing he will have fascinating stories to tell and experiences and pointers for those who follow. The inner journey, the hero's quest, if you will, is a subject of deep religion and myth and permeates the worlds psychologies and religion. There is something rare and odd called human wisdom. You are magnetized and attracted by truth or not.

M: I never said I hated him moon, I just think he is a sad pathetic individual who decided that he wanted to take the path of least resistance and take people with him who bore him no malice and were probably the easiest targets he could find.

M: Fine, I presented what was my view.

W quotes M: we were all given the law of a Wrathful God

W adds: See, thats the problem between you and I. I don not believe that God is wrathful.

To believe that he is, you must first believe that there is one true God, I have not seen evidence of that.

M: I am not talking about what you believe in or if there is a God or not. I am talking about my prediction about the mindset of the killer and how he may have come to do what he did. He suffered many delusions that to him were real.

W: Those that believe he is look at every bad situation as an act of a god seeking revenge.

Revenge for what? If he is as mighty as some believe then why not smite us all at once?

M: You are arguing reason and I am talking about the mental state of somebody who is insane.

W: This man killing these kids did nothing for me personally. I am unaffected by it. I have an opinion yes, but will it cause me to break stride in my everyday life? no

M: I pity you then. I cry every damn time I hear it. It crushes me to hear that some of the girls asked to die to save others. What a horrible thing to lose children like that.

W: The fact is IF there is a all knowing god, and IF he put us here and gave us free will, then he KNEW going into this what would happen from our creation to the end of time in every persons life and the life of every creature here.

In esssence what you are saying is that God has set us up. He puts the cookie out there fully knowing we will take it, and then smacks our hand when we do.

M: No I am talking about what I see as the madness religion can create when it creates good and evil.

W: you know Moon, you think self hate is the great motivator in any given bad situation, that seems to be your only opinion. Why don't you try to step outside the box an actually see that there is much more to it than that? Then again maybe you are full of self hate yourself and that is what motivates you and therefore if it motivates you, then it must motivate all of mankind.

M: Hehe, I should step out of a box you have never stepped in. Why not you spend a few years getting in touch with what you feel. What motivates me does motivate you but I know what it is and you don't. We are all the same but what are we? I'm not going to tell.


W: What motivates people when they do good deeds?

M: There is only love. Self hate is an illusion but it's what you really feel. Feeling it is what makes it go away.