what can be done to change our litigious society?

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GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
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Originally posted by: tk149
I think you have to delineate among the different types of litigation.

1. Contract disputes

2. Personal Injury

3. Medical malpractice (yeah, maybe it's a subsection of Personal Injury)

4. Class Action Lawsuits

That's just for starters.

I think OP is talking about #2, #3, and #4. There is a public perception (possibly valid) that these are clogging courts needlessly, and certainly these are the ones that make the news headlines.

How would you do tort reform? Lots of approaches, each with problems.
Possibly:
1. Loser pays all court costs and attorneys fees - sounds good on the surface, because it will eliminate many lawsuits that have less than a 50% chance of succeeding...but that would favor big business who would spend $100K's on defense, and drag the litigation out for years.

2. Cap damages - How much is a lost limb worth? To an accountant? To an NBA player?

3. Eliminate or cap non-"physical" damages like Pain and Suffering, and Punitive damages (e.g. McDonald's hot coffee case).

4. Bench trials only (no jury) - might reduce the cost. Probably result in speedier trials. Needs Constitutional Amendment? Other countries have this.

5. Eliminate pro se (self representation) cases. I once read an article that claimed that 80% of all cases clogging up federal courts in New York were habeas corpus appeals from prisoners. The advantage would be that a lot of silly cases filed by stupid people would go away. Oh god, I do not want to give lawyers any more power than they already have...

6. Kill all the lawyers. (I can dream, can't I?)

The answer is to find a solution that eliminates ridiculous lawsuits quickly and cheaply (e.g. suing your school because you can't find a job), is fair to both big business and the little guy, and provides adequate compensation for successful meritorious lawsuits (a broken arm should not be the equivalent of winning the lottery), without chilling business activities. Good luck with that.

A lot of what you say is reasonable. But

1. Contract disputes - these are part and parcel of doing business and small businesses must have easy access to legal redress or commerce will become very lopsided. The current legal system we have is one of the business strengths of US.

2. It is hard to put a price on anyone. Capping damages can have a downside - a famous example is the Ford Pinto Memo. Businesses will have less incentive not to be unethical like Ford was viewed.

3. In McDonalds case. The woman was only asking for 20,000 to cover her medical costs. McD offered $800. She hired a lawyer who tried to get McD to settle for 90,000. McD refused. A mediator suggest settling at $250,000 but McD refused. At the trial she was only given $160,000 in compensation, but the jury decided to award 2.7 million in punitive damages which was reduced to $480.000 (3 times the compensation)

Suggest you read here or here or here for a better understanding of the case.

The threat of large punitive damages also keeps businesses acting prudent and careful.

4. You are talking of changing the very foundation of the US legal system. Trial by jury of peers is what makes it a people system.

5. The right of Habeas Corpus is at the heart of the free society that the US set out to be. Take that away and you no longer have real freedom in the country.

6. :D

I am not a lawyer nor connected to any lawyer in any way but I would prefer to see the system of checks and balances maintained.







 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

3. In McDonalds case. The woman was only asking for 20,000 to cover her medical costs. McD offered $800. She hired a lawyer who tried to get McD to settle for 90,000. McD refused. A mediator suggest settling at $250,000 but McD refused. At the trial she was only given $160,000 in compensation, but the jury decided to award 2.7 million in punitive damages which was reduced to $480.000 (3 times the compensation)

Suggest you read here or here or here for a better understanding of the case.

The threat of large punitive damages also keeps businesses acting prudent and careful.

people have to realize that corporations are not charities, and will not act ethically (or legally) if they expect to be able to get away with it and/or profit from it. Large potential fines and legal liability increases the costs of doing dumb shit.

That said in the healthcare case i think it might be a good idea to have and independent 'grand jury' with some sort of training in the field or related field sift through the claims, though i doubt any such scenario would work well.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: IGBT
true medical reform can't happen without tort reform.

Why is it that people assume that tort reform will drastically reduce the costs of physicians making mistakes? The assumption seems to be that most medical malpractice lawsuits are without merit, and that lawyers game the system to get excessive judgments.

While I'm sure there are SOME malpractice claims and awards that are without merit (either the doctor did nothing wrong or the damage isn't as great as the jury thinks), I suspect that most are pretty reasonable.

In the U.S. as a whole, the AVERAGE malpractice payment was about $265,000 in 2005. Those awards reflect the very real costs of dealing with the physical damage to a human body, caused by a physician's mistake, plus additional money for "pain and suffering." Tort reform isn't magically going to make those mistakes go away. Blameless patients who are harmed should NOT be expected to pay the costs of someone else's mistake. And we can't just ignore "pain and suffering" even if there are caps on the amount paid.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if "tort reform" reduces medical costs in the U.S. even 1%.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: tk149The answer is to find a solution that eliminates ridiculous lawsuits quickly and cheaply (e.g. suing your school because you can't find a job)

A lawsuit against a school or a university may not be as frivolous as you might wish to imagine. What if the school committed fraud by using blatantly or recklessly misleading employment statistics to sell itself to prospective students?

Remember, colleges and universities are not always benevolent social institutions that only have the good of society at heart and that a great many of them are self-interested greedy "non-profit" businesses that have their own stakeholders (administrators, professors, and other well-paid employees with excellent benefits and pensions) that benefit and profit from the business of the institution.

Today, most institutions of higher learning could care less about the employment success and well-being of their students and graduates other than the effect those statistics have on recruitment and the ability to increase tuition costs.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Atreus21I agree to some extent, but that's also a chicken-egg scenario. Why are there too many lawyers? Possible because lawsuits are common. Which one do you address first?

There are too many lawyers because 98% of all non-lawyers have a very outdated perception of attorneys' career success rate based on what it may have been like the Fifties and Sixties back when far fewer people went on to college and fewer obtained professional and advanced degrees. Your average non-lawyer believes that all attorneys are wealthy and work in marbled offices surrounded by hot paralegals and secretaries whom they get to sleep with now and then and that they only work for about 4 hours a day and play golf with businessmen, judges, and politicians for the rest of the day.

This perception combined with poor employment and advancement prospects in other fields drives people to law school. The lack of being able to discharge student loans in bankruptcy and the consequent ease of attaining student loans, our society's almost religious belief in the absolute economic value of higher education, and law schools' self-interested profit motive also contribute to the tremendous overproduction of attorneys.

That's the reason why we have two or three times as many attorneys than the nation needs. It has nothing to do with the actual market need for attorney services; it's not because there are too many lawsuits. In reality there are too few (paying) complainants and defendants to support the number of lawyers we have in this country.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Siddhartha
A lawsuit is sometimes, (usually?) the only recourse a regular person has to redress an injury or a grievance cause by a richer, more power individual, company, or organization.

I am concerned about taking away or limiting this avenue for people to get their day in court.

Having a lawsuit is how civilized people resolve their differences. People are going to resolve their differences. Is it better done in court or in an old school, Wild West fashion where violent feuds develop and build over time as a litany of retaliatory wrongs amass between parties?
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: GroundedSailor3. In McDonalds case. The woman was only asking for 20,000 to cover her medical costs. McD offered $800. She hired a lawyer who tried to get McD to settle for 90,000. McD refused. A mediator suggest settling at $250,000 but McD refused. At the trial she was only given $160,000 in compensation, but the jury decided to award 2.7 million in punitive damages which was reduced to $480.000 (3 times the compensation)

Thank you for posting the links; it's been years since I looked at this case. If I remember correctly, most people don't realize that at the start of the case, the jurors were predisposed against the lawsuit and couldn't believe that they were going to have to hear a lawsuit over something so silly. However, once they learned the facts of the case (which most people who critique the case are unaware of) they became resentful of McDonalds's behavior and wanted to punish McDonalds. Was there something in the facts of the case that changed their minds or did the Plaintiff's lawyer use a magical lawyer Jedi mind trick on these seemingly reasonable people?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

i'm far from rich and i'm for tort reform.

I mentioned two groups - the propagandists who are trying to fool people into supporting policies for the wealthy, and the people who they target. You're right, you're not the first.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,913
3,892
136
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: IGBT
true medical reform can't happen without tort reform.

Why is it that people assume that tort reform will drastically reduce the costs of physicians making mistakes? The assumption seems to be that most medical malpractice lawsuits are without merit, and that lawyers game the system to get excessive judgments.

While I'm sure there are SOME malpractice claims and awards that are without merit (either the doctor did nothing wrong or the damage isn't as great as the jury thinks), I suspect that most are pretty reasonable.

In the U.S. as a whole, the AVERAGE malpractice payment was about $265,000 in 2005. Those awards reflect the very real costs of dealing with the physical damage to a human body, caused by a physician's mistake, plus additional money for "pain and suffering." Tort reform isn't magically going to make those mistakes go away. Blameless patients who are harmed should NOT be expected to pay the costs of someone else's mistake. And we can't just ignore "pain and suffering" even if there are caps on the amount paid.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if "tort reform" reduces medical costs in the U.S. even 1%.

This.

What people don't realize is that a vast majority of damage awards are against a small percentage of crappy doctors. It those doctors stopped being crappy or stopped being doctors then the amount of lawsuits would go way down.

If I go in for a tonsillectomy and some incompetent hack cuts off one of my legs, then I'm going to take him and his insurance company for everything I can get. Apparently the pro-tort reform types would be happy with a couple hundred grand, but I sure wouldn't.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: IGBT
true medical reform can't happen without tort reform.

Why is it that people assume that tort reform will drastically reduce the costs of physicians making mistakes? The assumption seems to be that most medical malpractice lawsuits are without merit, and that lawyers game the system to get excessive judgments.

While I'm sure there are SOME malpractice claims and awards that are without merit (either the doctor did nothing wrong or the damage isn't as great as the jury thinks), I suspect that most are pretty reasonable.

In the U.S. as a whole, the AVERAGE malpractice payment was about $265,000 in 2005. Those awards reflect the very real costs of dealing with the physical damage to a human body, caused by a physician's mistake, plus additional money for "pain and suffering." Tort reform isn't magically going to make those mistakes go away. Blameless patients who are harmed should NOT be expected to pay the costs of someone else's mistake. And we can't just ignore "pain and suffering" even if there are caps on the amount paid.

Frankly, I'd be surprised if "tort reform" reduces medical costs in the U.S. even 1%.

This.

What people don't realize is that a vast majority of damage awards are against a small percentage of crappy doctors. It those doctors stopped being crappy or stopped being doctors then the amount of lawsuits would go way down.

If I go in for a tonsillectomy and some incompetent hack cuts off one of my legs, then I'm going to take him and his insurance company for everything I can get. Apparently the pro-tort reform types would be happy with a couple hundred grand, but I sure wouldn't.

The figure of medical malpractice costing around 1% of the total health care costs is about correct.

Link 1


August 31, 2009, 3:45 pm
Would Tort Reform Lower Costs?
By Anne Underwood

Medical tort reform is moving to the fore of the health care debate. On Sunday in The New York Times, former Senator Bill Bradley, Democrat of New Jersey, argued that one way to gain support of both Democrats and Republicans might be to combine universal coverage with tort reform. Mr. Bradley also suggested that medical courts with special judges could be established, similar to bankruptcy or admiralty courts.

On ?This Week With George Stephanopoulos,? Senators Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, and John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, seemed to agree that medical malpractice lawsuits are driving up health care costs and should be limited in some way. ?We?ve got to find some way of getting rid of the frivolous cases, and most of them are,? Mr. Hatch said. ?And that?s doable, most definitely,? Mr. Kerry replied.

But some academics who study the system are less certain. One critic is Tom Baker, a professor of law and health sciences at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law and author of ?The Medical Malpractice Myth,? who believes that making the legal system less receptive to medical malpractice lawsuits will not significantly affect the costs of medical care. He spoke with the freelance writer Anne Underwood.
Q.

A lot of people seem to have taken up the cause of tort reform. Why isn?t it included in the health care legislation pending on Capitol Hill?
A.

Because it?s a red herring. It?s become a talking point for those who want to obstruct change. But [tort reform] doesn?t accomplish the goal of bringing down costs.
Q.

Why not?
A.

As the cost of health care goes up, the medical liability component of it has stayed fairly constant. That means it?s part of the medical price inflation system, but it?s not driving it. The number of claims is small relative to actual cases of medical malpractice.
Q.

But critics of the current system say that 10 to 15 percent of medical costs are due to medical malpractice.
A.

That?s wildly exaggerated. According to the actuarial consulting firm Towers Perrin, medical malpractice tort costs were $30.4 billion in 2007, the last year for which data are available. We have a more than a $2 trillion health care system. That puts litigation costs and malpractice insurance at 1 to 1.5 percent of total medical costs. That?s a rounding error. Liability isn?t even the tail on the cost dog. It?s the hair on the end of the tail.
Q.

You said the number of claims is relatively small. Is there a way to demonstrate that?
A.

We have approximately the same number of claims today as in the late 1980s. Think about that. The cost of health care has doubled since then. The number of medical encounters between doctors and patients has gone up ? and research shows a more or less constant rate of errors per hospitalizations. That means we have a declining rate of lawsuits relative to numbers of injuries.
Q.

Do you have numbers on injuries and claims?
A.

The best data on medical errors come from three major epidemiological studies on medical malpractice in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Each found about one serious injury per 100 hospitalizations. There hasn?t been an epidemiological study since then, because people were really persuaded by the data and it?s also very expensive to do a study of that sort. These data were the basis of the 1999 report from the Institute of Medicine, ?To Err Is Human.?
Q.

And what percent of victims make claims?
A.

Those same studies looked at the rate of claims and found that only 4 to 7 percent of those injured brought a case. That?s a small percentage. And because the actual number of injuries has gone up since those studies were done ? while claims have remained steady ? the rate of claims is actually going down.
Q.

So the idea that there are lots of frivolous lawsuits is . . .
A.

Ludicrous.
Q.

In those cases that are brought, are jury awards excessive?
A.

There are already caps on awards in many states. These tend to be on non-economic damages ? not medical expenses or lost wages, but typically on pain and suffering. The first was in California in the 1970s. There is pretty good research on that, showing it reduced medical liability payments. These caps vary from state to state, but they?re generally set around $250,000 to $500,000.
Q.

Many people would think that a quarter-million to a half-million dollars is a lot of money for pain and suffering.
A.

When California adopted its cap in the mid-1970s, it set it at $250,000. That doesn?t mean everyone got that much. It was the maximum. But that was considered a fair amount at the time. Since then, think how much inflation has eaten into that. These caps typically don?t index for inflation.
Q.

So a patient can get reimbursed for medical costs, but they?re limited for pain and suffering.

A. They get reimbursement of medical costs in principle. But in fact, they don?t, because the lawyer has to be paid. These cases can cost $100,000 to $150,000 to bring, so the patient has to deduct that amount from any award.
Q.

Why are these cases so expensive?
A.

You need expert witnesses who must be compensated for their time, which is valuable. You need depositions, which are expensive. You have to hire investigators. You have to pay your junior staff. It?s not worth bringing a suit if the potential award is less.

Imagine you go to the emergency room with appendicitis. For whatever reason, they fail to diagnose it. Your appendix bursts, and you spend a couple weeks in the hospital. I?ve had lawyers tell me they would not take a case like that, even if it?s a slam-dunk. The damages wouldn?t be enough ? medical expenses, maybe a month of lost salary, although the patient might have short-term disability insurance that would cover a large part of that. It?s not enough to justify going to court.
Q.

So you?re saying that a case has to be serious to be worth trying.
A.

The medical malpractice system only works for serious injuries. What it doesn?t work for is more moderate ones. Lawyers discourage people from bringing suits if their injuries are not serious in monetary terms ? a poor person or an older person who can?t claim a lot in lost wages. That?s why obstetrician-gynecologists pay such high premiums. If you injure a baby, you?re talking about a lifetime-care injury. Gerontologists? premiums are exceedingly low.

That?s the reason I say if people are serious about tort reform, they should improve compensation for moderate injuries. Nobody likes that idea, by the way. They say it would make the system more expensive, not less expensive. More people would bring claims. That says to me that the critics are not serious about tort reform.
Q.

But it?s not just the cost of premiums and litigation. What about the charge that it causes doctors to practice ?defensive medicine,? ordering tests that are expensive and unnecessary?
A.

A 1996 study in Florida found defensive medicine costs could be as high as 5 to 7 percent. But when the same authors went back a few years later, they found that managed care had brought it down to 2.5 to 3.5 percent of the total. No one has a good handle on defensive medicine costs. Liability is supposed to change behavior, so some defensive medicine is good. Undoubtedly some of it may be unnecessary, but we don?t have a good way to separate the two.
Q.

Tell me more about the 1996 study.
A.

It was published in The Quarterly Journal of Economics by Stanford economist Daniel Kessler and Dr. Mark McClellan, who was head of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services under President George W. Bush. For two types of heart disease ? heart attacks and ischemic heart disease ? the authors found that 5 to 7 percent of the additional costs in Florida, compared to other states with lower medical malpractice liability, could be attributed to defensive medicine. This was based on 1980s data.

Using that estimate, some politicians used to say that medical malpractice cost the system $50 billion a year. But you can?t blindly say that all diseases are the same as heart disease, and if you want a nationwide estimate, you can?t say every state is the same as Florida. Furthermore, the second study, published in 2002 in The Journal of Public Economics, found that much of the difference disappeared as managed care took hold in Florida in the 1990s.
Q.

But many doctors complain about having to practice defensive medicine.
A.

Doctors will say that. But when you dig down, you find that what?s really happening is that doctors tend to do what other doctors around them do. They go along with the prevailing standard of care in their region ? which in many cases isn?t even a state, but a city or county.
Q.

If medical malpractice doesn?t explain the high costs of our health-care system, what does?
A.

A variety of things. The American population is aging. We?ve had advances in technology that are expensive. We?re also a rich nation, and the richer you get, the more money you spend on health care. And compared to other countries, we have heavy administrative costs from the private-insurance system.
Q.

If it?s not true that medical malpractice is driving the high cost of medical care in this country, why won?t the argument go away?
A.

It makes sense to people intuitively ? in part, because they?ve been told it so often. And it?s a convenient argument for those who want to derail the process. Maybe it?s a deep political game. Maybe they?re raising it to say, we?ll back off tort reform if you back off the public option.
Q.

What about former Senator Bill Bradley?s idea that medical courts with special judges should be established?
A.

Mr. Bradley has been backing tort reform for as long as I can remember, so this is hardly a compromise for him. I?m not saying medical courts would be a bad idea, as long as they?re not set up in a way that insulates medical providers from responsibility. That?s a big caveat.
Q.

What about Senator John Kerry?s assertion that it?s ?doable? to rid the system of frivolous lawsuits?
A.

I guess it?s doable because there aren?t very many frivolous suits.



Link 2

Healthcare industry

Liability suits for medical malpractice issues have been of particular concern to many tort reform advocates, who advocate imposing caps on non-economic losses and punitive damages, as well as on "contingent fees", or fees set by the plaintiff's attorney as a percentage of damages awarded to the plaintiff. Tort reform advocates argue that such caps would benefit those plaintiffs with legitimate lawsuits by reducing the number of "nuisance" suits and thereby improving the overall efficiency of the system. This area of tort reform reflects a broader ideological claim of the tort reform movement; that unrestricted litigation - particularly in the realms of personal liability and class-action suits - has a widespread and damaging effect on important social institutions and services beyond the scope of individual claims.


Additionally, advocates argue that by limiting the threat of frivolous lawsuits, the medical industry would migrate away from practicing defensive medicine. This would reduce the number of unnecessary tests and procedures, typically performed under patient request, thereby reducing the costs of medical care in general.

As an argument against the current system, tort reformers link the rising costs of premiums for physicians' medical malpractice insurance to the rising cost of personal and group policy health insurance coverage.

Others deny that medical malpractice suits play a significant role in the cost of health care. Including legal fees, insurance costs, and payouts, the cost of all US malpractice suits comes to less than one-half of 1 percent of health-care spending. Other recent research suggests that malpractice pressure makes hospitals more efficient, not less so: "The recent focus by the American Medical Association and physicians about the dramatic increases in medical malpractice insurance premiums, and their suggestion of a cap on non-economic damages, deserves a closer look. According to Baicker and Chandra (2004), increases in premiums are not affected by past or present malpractice payments, but may increase due to other unrelated factors. Chandra, Nundy, and Seabury (2005) find that the rising cost of medical services may explain the bulk of the growth of ?compensatory awards?. They also find that the greatest ten percent of the malpractice payments have grown at a smaller pace than the average payment for the years 1991 and 2003. This means that the ?medical malpractice crisis? is not necessarily fueled by the growth in malpractice payments. Furthermore, malpractice pressure actually forces our hospitals to be technically more efficient. This implies that existence of the medical malpractice system is beneficial, and its strength should not be diluted by either putting caps on non-economic damages or by decreasing the statute of limitations."


 

stateofbeasley

Senior member
Jan 26, 2004
519
0
0
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: Atreus21I agree to some extent, but that's also a chicken-egg scenario. Why are there too many lawyers? Possible because lawsuits are common. Which one do you address first?

There are too many lawyers because 98% of all non-lawyers have a very outdated perception of attorneys' career success rate based on what it may have been like the Fifties and Sixties back when far fewer people went on to college and fewer obtained professional and advanced degrees. Your average non-lawyer believes that all attorneys are wealthy and work in marbled offices surrounded by hot paralegals and secretaries whom they get to sleep with now and then and that they only work for about 4 hours a day and play golf with businessmen, judges, and politicians for the rest of the day.

This perception combined with poor employment and advancement prospects in other fields drives people to law school. The lack of being able to discharge student loans in bankruptcy and the consequent ease of attaining student loans, our society's almost religious belief in the absolute economic value of higher education, and law schools' self-interested profit motive also contribute to the tremendous overproduction of attorneys.

That's the reason why we have two or three times as many attorneys than the nation needs. It has nothing to do with the actual market need for attorney services; it's not because there are too many lawsuits. In reality there are too few (paying) complainants and defendants to support the number of lawyers we have in this country.

Exactly.

There are too many lawyers because new college grads DO NOT UNDERSTAND that law is not a path to easy money. Most law school graduates don't make jackshit. A hallowed few at the very top of their class or at the top schools will make six figures at the big firms, but the rest will suffer low salaries and crushing student debt burdens.

I posted a thread recently about the chairman of KLA Gates (international mega firm) saying that law school was condemning students to a lifetime of enormous debt, and that many people would not be able to make enough money to justify the cost.
 

Colt45

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
19,720
1
0
Automatic summary execution for bullshit cases.


edit: in the event that the complainant is not a natural person, it still gets executed.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
Against tort reform, because they did it here in Illinois, and it made NO difference.
 

CountZero

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2001
1,796
36
86
Against it. I've never heard a version of tort reform that didn't appear to complete neuter peoples ability to get their day in court.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
Polls like these make me die a little bit inside when all the logical arguments are clearly on one side and so many retards line up on the other.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: ElFenix
who says our society is litigious? do they have any numbers to back up their claim? i'd be interested in what % of the country has been sued or has sued in the last, oh, decade, and how that compares with other countries, how that compares to the US over it's history, and how that compares to earlier common law legal traditions.

I'd also like to know how many of the ridiculous lawsuits that are filed actually make it to trial instead of being dismissed outright.

Enough to cripple the general aviation industry. Ever seen the price of a new plane? Particularly one that was safe when it was designed decades ago? Yet the manufacturers have to charge quite a bit over the cost of the airplane in the event of a lawsuit. The FAA certifies the planes... but somehow in court the planes are always unsafe...

Interesting read about a lawsuit that cost Piper Aircraft tens of millions on an aircraft that was 50 years old!
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Originally posted by: tk149
I think you have to delineate among the different types of litigation.

1. Contract disputes

2. Personal Injury

3. Medical malpractice (yeah, maybe it's a subsection of Personal Injury)

4. Class Action Lawsuits

That's just for starters.

I think OP is talking about #2, #3, and #4. There is a public perception (possibly valid) that these are clogging courts needlessly, and certainly these are the ones that make the news headlines.

How would you do tort reform? Lots of approaches, each with problems.
Possibly:
1. Loser pays all court costs and attorneys fees - sounds good on the surface, because it will eliminate many lawsuits that have less than a 50% chance of succeeding...but that would favor big business who would spend $100K's on defense, and drag the litigation out for years.

2. Cap damages - How much is a lost limb worth? To an accountant? To an NBA player?

3. Eliminate or cap non-"physical" damages like Pain and Suffering, and Punitive damages (e.g. McDonald's hot coffee case).

4. Bench trials only (no jury) - might reduce the cost. Probably result in speedier trials. Needs Constitutional Amendment? Other countries have this.

5. Eliminate pro se (self representation) cases. I once read an article that claimed that 80% of all cases clogging up federal courts in New York were habeas corpus appeals from prisoners. The advantage would be that a lot of silly cases filed by stupid people would go away. Oh god, I do not want to give lawyers any more power than they already have...

6. Kill all the lawyers. (I can dream, can't I?)

The answer is to find a solution that eliminates ridiculous lawsuits quickly and cheaply (e.g. suing your school because you can't find a job), is fair to both big business and the little guy, and provides adequate compensation for successful meritorious lawsuits (a broken arm should not be the equivalent of winning the lottery), without chilling business activities. Good luck with that.

A lot of what you say is reasonable. But

1. Contract disputes - these are part and parcel of doing business and small businesses must have easy access to legal redress or commerce will become very lopsided. The current legal system we have is one of the business strengths of US.

2. It is hard to put a price on anyone. Capping damages can have a downside - a famous example is the Ford Pinto Memo. Businesses will have less incentive not to be unethical like Ford was viewed.

3. In McDonalds case. The woman was only asking for 20,000 to cover her medical costs. McD offered $800. She hired a lawyer who tried to get McD to settle for 90,000. McD refused. A mediator suggest settling at $250,000 but McD refused. At the trial she was only given $160,000 in compensation, but the jury decided to award 2.7 million in punitive damages which was reduced to $480.000 (3 times the compensation)

Suggest you read here or here or here for a better understanding of the case.

The threat of large punitive damages also keeps businesses acting prudent and careful.

4. You are talking of changing the very foundation of the US legal system. Trial by jury of peers is what makes it a people system.

5. The right of Habeas Corpus is at the heart of the free society that the US set out to be. Take that away and you no longer have real freedom in the country.

6. :D

I am not a lawyer nor connected to any lawyer in any way but I would prefer to see the system of checks and balances maintained.

I was just trying to list avenues of reform that I have heard about. I don't really agree with any of them (except for #6 ;)). Nevertheless, I agree that some sort of reform must be implemented, although I don't have any answers. What we have right now is hurting people, small businesses, and large businesses. Oddly enough, the lawyers seem to be doing alright. :confused:

I have read quite a bit about the McDonald's case. I consider it a prime example of how people don't take personal responsibility for their own stupidity, but that's been discussed ad nauseum in previous threads here.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
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Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Originally posted by: tk149The answer is to find a solution that eliminates ridiculous lawsuits quickly and cheaply (e.g. suing your school because you can't find a job)

A lawsuit against a school or a university may not be as frivolous as you might wish to imagine. What if the school committed fraud by using blatantly or recklessly misleading employment statistics to sell itself to prospective students?

Remember, colleges and universities are not always benevolent social institutions that only have the good of society at heart and that a great many of them are self-interested greedy "non-profit" businesses that have their own stakeholders (administrators, professors, and other well-paid employees with excellent benefits and pensions) that benefit and profit from the business of the institution.

Today, most institutions of higher learning could care less about the employment success and well-being of their students and graduates other than the effect those statistics have on recruitment and the ability to increase tuition costs.

I was referring to a specific recent case which, as far as I could see, had zero merit.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: stateofbeasleyThere are too many lawyers because new college grads DO NOT UNDERSTAND that law is not a path to easy money. Most law school graduates don't make jackshit. A hallowed few at the very top of their class or at the top schools will make six figures at the big firms, but the rest will suffer low salaries and crushing student debt burdens.

People also don't realize that those young lawyers at the large firms are working about 3000 hours/year often under tremendous pressure and stress. They're overall wage rate really isn't as high as what people think when you take that into consideration. They're really earning that money and most of them are miserable.

I posted a thread recently about the chairman of KLA Gates (international mega firm) saying that law school was condemning students to a lifetime of enormous debt, and that many people would not be able to make enough money to justify the cost.

It's very sad, not just for the victims, but also for society as a whole. Law used to be a respected profession and getting a law degree was a ladder of upward mobility; it was a field where someone just about everyone who wanted to work hard could obtain the education and find success and some degree of social status even if they came from a humble background. Now most of the graduates are going to find themselves unemployed or underemployed and staring at huge student loan debts.

I graduated eight years ago from a top ten law school and now I feel that my $25,000/year top-end tuition was a bargain when I see what schools are charging today. I think the top schools and private schools are now charging $45,000/year, which is an increase of 80% in just 8 years. That's insane! A huge number of these law school graduates aren't going to be able to pay off their law school debt (about $180,000 now when you factor in living expenses) and undergraduate student loan debt. They won't be able to declare bankruptcy, so I have no idea what the government is planning to do with these people; let them be homeless?


 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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Originally posted by: tk149
I think you have to delineate among the different types of litigation.
-snip-

Yes.

I think as importantly, if not more, are types of damages.

Compensatory damages s/n/b limited IMO. However Punitive Damages are the ones that seem out-of-control.

If you're guilty of something that should be punished, the punishment needs to be well thought out law and applied equally to all who are guilty. Instead punitive damages are at the whims of a jury and applied unequally.

Let's consider tort reform for the punitive damages aspect.

Fern
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
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one of my biggest issues with the courts are BS lawsuits. Class actions lawsuits are #1 issue. not the lawsuit themselves but how the lawyers do the. they sue a company for millions and settle for coupons for the people but they get the money. that shouldnt be allowed.