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What are your thoughts on this stance

ShadesOfGrey

Golden Member
We must restore America's role as a source of hope and a force for progress... We must hear the cry for bread, and schools, work and opportunity...

I would tend to agree with the above as a general ideal. Do you?

Sure there are limits to how far we as America should or can take it but as a guiding principle I think it is sound. Helping others is a role of a leader nations such as the US and we should do what we can to help repressed areas flourish.
 
We must restore America's role as a source of hope and a force for progress... We must hear the cry for bread, and schools, work and opportunity...

Way too vague to judge. Just sounds like rhetoric.
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
We must restore America's role as a source of hope and a force for progress... We must hear the cry for bread, and schools, work and opportunity...

I would tend to agree with the above as a general ideal. Do you?

Sure there are limits to how far we as America should or can take it but as a guiding principle I think it is sound. Helping others is a role of a leader nations such as the US and we should do what we can to help repressed areas flourish.

the only cries I ever hear are for dollar bills and quarters. I'd be happy to buy a homeless person a loaf of bread, but TBH they'd rather have jack daniels, which is to expensive
 
rickn - sorry if it wasn't clear enough. This is more about our role as a global leader, not just what we see here in our own back yard.

infohawk - usually guiding principles are somewhat vague but that doesn't mean they are rhetoric. Do you think we should restore America's role as a source of hope and a force of progress in the world, be it economic or otherwise?
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Do you think we should restore America's role as a source of hope and a force of progress in the world, be it economic or otherwise?

You'd have to define "source of hope" and "force of progress." Since you quoted "restore" maybe you can point to a period of time when these conditions were met?

Do you mean having 60% of the world's population seeing us a "source of hope" in some survey? What constitutes being a "force of progress" for you? In some ways we are a "force of progress" (US scientific research) in other ways we are not (Kansas evolution fiasco)...

 
My thought are that Sen. Chris Dodd assumes that America has lost something....The stance is what we call a strawman.
 
Originally posted by: Ozoned
My thought are that Sen. Chris Dodd assumes that America has lost something....The stance is what we call a strawman.

How is this a strawman?

Straw Man

Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and
usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.

Example:
We should have conscription. People don't want to enter
the military because they find it an inconvenience. But they
should realize that there are more important things than
convenience.

from Stephen Downes

Feel free to attack his premise though, that's what it sounds like you want to do.
 
Well, if we don't want to call the culled quote a strawman, how about we call the stance an old idea that Democrats have suddenly decided to oppose just so they can maintain the status quo of opposing anything that Bush wants to do, even if they have to turn their backs on what they profess that they believe.



washingtonpost.com
A Party Without Ideas

By Charles Krauthammer
Post
Friday, June 24, 2005; A31



What has happened to the Democrats over the past few decades is best captured by the phrase (coined by Kevin Phillips) "reactionary liberalism." Spent of new ideas, they have but one remaining idea: to hang on to the status quo at all costs.

This is true across the board. On Social Security, which is facing an impending demographic and fiscal crisis, they have put absolutely nothing on the table. On presidential appointments -- first, judges and now ambassador to the United Nations -- they resort to the classic weapon of southern obstructionism: the filibuster. And on foreign policy, they have nothing to say on the war on terrorism, the war in Iraq or the burgeoning Arab Spring (except the refrain: "Guantanamo").

A quarter-century ago, Daniel Patrick Moynihan noted how it was the Republicans who had become a party of ideas, while the Democrats' philosophical foundation was "deeply eroded." But even Moynihan would be surprised by the bankruptcy in the Democrats' current intellectual account.

Take trade and Central America. The status quo there is widespread poverty. The Bush administration has proposed doing something about it -- a free-trade agreement encompassing five Central American countries plus the Dominican Republic.

It's a no-brainer. If we have learned anything from the past 25 years in China, India, Chile and other centers of amazing economic growth, it is that open markets and free trade are the keys to pulling millions, indeed hundreds of millions, of people out of poverty. The Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) is a chance to do the same for desperately poor near-neighbors.

You would think this treaty would be a natural for Democrats, who have always portrayed themselves as the party with real sympathy for the poor -- in contradistinction to Republicans, who have hearts of stone if they have any at all. The Democratic Party has always seen itself as the tribune of the oppressed of the Third World and as deeply distressed by the fact that "the United States by far is the stingiest nation in the world for development assistance or foreign aid," to quote Jimmy Carter, former Democratic president, current Democratic saint.

You would think, therefore, that Democrats would be for CAFTA. Not so. CAFTA is in great jeopardy because Democrats have turned against it. Whereas a decade ago under President Bill Clinton, 102 House Democrats supported the North American Free Trade Agreement, that number for CAFTA is down to 10 or less. In a closed-door meeting this month, reports Jonathan Weisman of The Post, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi put heavy-handed pressure on all congressional Democrats to observe party discipline in killing the treaty.

Arguing free trade is particularly tiresome because it is the only proposition in politics that is mathematically provable. It was proved by British economist David Ricardo in 1817 that even if one country is more efficient in producing two items, trade between two countries based on the relative efficiency of production is always beneficial to both countries.

Mathematics does not change, but calculations of political expediency do. After all, it was the Democrats who, when Central America was aflame in the 1980s, argued strenuously against Ronald Reagan's muscular approach of supporting the government of El Salvador and the anti-communist revolutionaries in Nicaragua. Democrats voted time and again against Reagan's policy because, they claimed, it ignored the root causes of the widespread discontent in Central America, namely poverty and hunger.

Their alternative? Economic help, not guns. In 1983, when Reagan made a speech asking for support for El Salvador's embattled government, Sen. Chris Dodd delivered a nationally televised response on behalf of the Democratic Party in which he called Reagan's policy a failure and demanded instead that we deal with the underlying economic and social conditions: "We must restore America's role as a source of hope and a force for progress in Central America. . . . We must hear the cry for bread, and schools, work and opportunity that comes from campesinos everywhere in this hemisphere."

There is no better way to bring bread, work and opportunity to the campesinos of Central America than with markets and free trade. To his credit, Dodd supports CAFTA, which represents precisely the kind of deployment of soft power that he advocated on behalf of his party 22 years ago. Today, however, his party has overwhelmingly abandoned his -- and its own professed -- ideals.

Eighty percent of goods from these countries are already entering the United States duty-free, so CAFTA would have a minimal impact on the United States. It would, however, have a dramatic impact on these six neighbor countries -- countries that Democrats used to care about. Or so they said.

 
Ozoned - I left the source of the quote out of it because I was looking for a discussion on the ideals professed in the quote, not a partisan war. Although I will conceed that your observation would have some merit if were we just talking politics instead of ideals.

Infohawk - if you don't want to answer - fine. You seem to be having trouble grasping the concept of ideals and just want to avoid actually presenting your own ideas, thoughts, and interpretation. If you are unwilling to take that overall ideal and present your opinions then please find a new thread. Thanks.
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Infohawk - if you don't want to answer - fine. You seem to be having trouble grasping the concept of ideals and just want to avoid actually presenting your own ideas, thoughts, and interpretation. If you are unwilling to take that overall ideal and present your opinions then please find a new thread. Thanks.

Sorry, you're thinking here is vague. You don't seem to be able to really give any details to the ideal, which suggests you don't even understand what it is. How can you judge something if you don't know what it is? You seem to think the meaning is obvious. Well, communicate it concretely if that's the case. One person's view of a source of hope is a lot different than others. You said this principle is guiding? How so? What is it guiding to?

Seems to me you should at least be able to answer this question:

Since you quoted "restore" maybe you can point to a period of time when these conditions were met?
 
Infohawk- why don't you try giving your own interpretations and opinions. It's a general principle and can be open to interpretation. I'm not saying any one interpretation is correct or that mine is the only one that should be discussed. Why do you refuse to accept that? If you don't think it is a guiding principle, state that and why you don't interpret it as such.

The only reason "restore" was left in because it would have destroyed the flow of the quote. My leaving it in does not mean that I think something has been lost, but rather I commented on the principles that were expoused. Now please try to give your own opinion and interpretations if you can, otherwise I will again ask you to find a different thread to play your million questions game so you don't have to answer.
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Infohawk- why don't you try giving your own interpretations and opinions.
I did.

It's a general principle and can be open to interpretation.
It can be open to a interpretation. I find it hard to call a principle since it doesn't really mean anything without context and fleshing out.

I'm not saying any one interpretation is correct or that mine is the only one that should be discussed. Why do you refuse to accept that?
I accept that. I never said your interpretation was incorrect since you don't really have one.

If you don't think it is a guiding principle, state that and why you don't interpret it as such.
It is too vague to be a guiding principle.

Now please try to give your own opinion and interpretations if you can, otherwise I will again ask you to find a different thread to play your million questions game so you don't have to answer.
Note that I have given my opinion. I did so in the first post. Furthermore, you don't get to determine who posts and who doesn't. Here's a tip: if you don't want a response from me, don't respond to this post.
 
infohawk - A response is what I've been asking for yet all you seem to want to do is dance around the issue. Dive in - take it and run - whatever. But I understand if you don't want to have to think and actually present something. But please if all you're going to do is dismiss it then find a different thread.

Does everyone around here just want to fight and play political games instead of exchanging their own ideas and interpretations? If so, the please excuse me for interrupting your war games by trying to suggest people actually think. Sorry🙁


Ozoned - If I wanted a partisan war i would have attributed the quote to him and went off on a rant either for or against him. But I thought some good discussion could come from the ideals expoused if people took the time to think and process their own thoughts on it. I'll make sure to remember from now on to only post partisan war threads. 😀
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
infohawk - A response is what I've been asking for yet all you seem to want to do is dance around the issue.
No, I took it head on and said it was too vague to judge.

Dive in - take it and run - whatever.
I did, you're not happy with the answer you got. Don't blame me for that.

But I understand if you don't want to have to think and actually present something.
I did present something. I showed that this is empty ultimately meaningless rhetoric. You are the one who can't think of answers to my basic questions.

But please if all you're going to do is dismiss it then find a different thread.
No, I'm fine answering your posts.

Does everyone around here just want to fight and play political games instead of exchanging their own ideas and interpretations? If so, the please excuse me for interrupting your war games by trying to suggest people actually think. Sorry🙁
I haven't mentioned anything about the parties. As for thinking, I suggest you think of some answers to the fair questions I asked you about your "ideal." It seems to me a thinker would be able to define something before judging it and you aren't able to define it.
 
Infohawk - I see you still can't grasp the idea of actually having to interpret things for yourself and then offer your opinion. Yes, it's quite a feat to present your dismissal. Did you come up with that all on your own? WOW :roll:
Again, this isn't MY ideal nor is it about my definition so your little questions are meaningless. My answers should have no bearing on your interpretations or opinions if you actually think for yourself.

I said political/war games - not parties. Try again.
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
Infohawk - I see you still can't grasp the idea of actually having to interpret things for yourself and then offer your opinion.
Of course I can. I interpreted the statement to be empty rhetoric. I have also offered my opinion in each post.

Again, this isn't MY ideal nor is it about my definition so your little questions are meaningless.
My questions would serve to define the statement so that your question could be answered in a valuable way. As for "meaningless," so is the statement you presented.

My answers should have no bearing on your interpretations or opinions if you actually think for yourself.
I think for myself. That's why I questioned the meaning of your statement and am calling it empty rhetoric.

I said political/war games - not parties. Try again.
Actually... you said "partisan war" threads. Again, I don't see any partisanship in my posts.

Anyway, you don't need to keep responding. But if you do, I'm going to feel free to reciprocate.
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
We must restore America's role as a source of hope and a force for progress... We must hear the cry for bread, and schools, work and opportunity...

I would tend to agree with the above as a general ideal. Do you?

Sure there are limits to how far we as America should or can take it but as a guiding principle I think it is sound. Helping others is a role of a leader nations such as the US and we should do what we can to help repressed areas flourish.


Here, let me fix the damn quote so that people can recognize it as something that could be called a guiding principle.


One of America's role in the world should be that we are a source of hope and a force of progress. We must hear the cry for bread, and schools, work and opportunity.

That is a good idea, in theory and practice, Now , just as it was a couple of hundred years ago.
 
infohawk - Again, MY opinion has been placed so any of your little questions shouldn't change your opinions and interpretation if you actually thought for yourself.
If you don't want to think for yourself, fine - please find a different thread to play your little million questions game in, there seem to be plenty of threads here that are void of anything that requires actual thought.

Ozoned - Thanks for your thoughts 🙂
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
infohawk - Again, MY opinion has been placed so any of your little questions shouldn't change your opinions and interpretation if you actually thought for yourself.

I did think for myself. I determined your quote was empty rhetoric.


 
Ozoned - sure why not. People don't seem to want to actually think and offer their own self thought out opinions so go ahead.
 
Originally posted by: ShadesOfGrey
We must restore America's role as a source of hope and a force for progress... We must hear the cry for bread, and schools, work and opportunity...

I would tend to agree with the above as a general ideal. Do you?

Sure there are limits to how far we as America should or can take it but as a guiding principle I think it is sound. Helping others is a role of a leader nations such as the US and we should do what we can to help repressed areas flourish.

I think that it has been a guiding priniciple of America for quite some time now. Every since WW1 to be honest. Before then we pretty much let the rest of the world handle its own problems. Since then, we have been intricately involvedin world politics. Often, we have sent troops to prevent genecide, protect the helpless, issue disaster relief.

I think the problem, is that its a great principle, but how far do you go with it? For example, I doubt very few in the US would say helping the people of Iraq get out from under the thumb of Saddam was a bad idea. But does that mean a war to remove him and destory an insurgency or does it mean a more peaceful (but possible less effective) diplomatic/political/economic stratgey.

This isn't purely a sacrificing policy. The stronger and more productive the rest of the world is, the stronger our own country AND the more stable the world is... less war and disease.

So, yes, I think almost all of the U.S. population would agree, but carrying out the philosophy would be the disagreement. I suppose there would be a few though that feel that the world can take care of itself.


And Infohawk, are you just here to criticize the thread? If you think its stupid then just stop posting. No harm done.
 
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