What are your thoughts on Asian medicine?

[fuzzybabybunny]

Just wanted to know what your thoughts are on Asian medicine, which includes stuff like acupuncture and traditional herbal remedies. I know acupuncture is pretty unbelievable, but would you give it a try if it were offered for free? I've never tried it before.

I'm a bit undecided on the herbal stuff. Anyone ever tried them? I don't want to discount them immediately because it's basically what people had to use back in the days when we didn't have high tech chemistry to produce things like Advil, Tylenol, etc. And they work for a lot of people, in Asia anyway.

 

[conorvansmack]

If I had a good reason to try it, I'd be all for acupuncture/acupressure. I'd be less inclined to try the nasty smelling herbs/teas that the practicioner prescribes, but again, if I had a good enough reason, I'd go for it.

 

[Titan]

Chinese herbalism is much different that traditional herbalism. The chinese have a much more intricate system of trying to balance different internal forces with herbs. I don't know a whole lot about it but I do know that. I actually met a veterinarian versed in chinese medicine.

Traditional herbs work. It's much more straight-forward in the west. Mint tea for diarrhea. Horehound for sore throat. The list goes on and on. Much of it comes from food. Let your food be your medicine. I had a GF who wouldn't get her period sometimes, (stressed and hormone issues) so she would make parsley tea to force it. It worked, parsley is also a diuretic.

Now homeopathy is a very different thing from herbs, and is much less clear if that has any effect.

Acupuncture is interesting. My holistic chiropractor has done it on me a number of times, I tend to get chronic lower back inflammation. It does relieve the inflammation. He knows all the acupuncture points and has put me in a "state of weakness" before where mid treatment I can barely stand (no energy, light-headed) and then when he finished I feel really flushed over my whole body. I don't know how well it "works" or what the yardstick for defining "works" should be. But Acupuncture has alleviated pain in my back, and in general it seems to get my body flowing. Which is good for guys like me who sit on their butt all day.

It doesn't hurt to try acupuncture and see for yourself. It doesn't hurt unless he hits close to a nerve then you have to tell him so he will move the needle.

 

[darkxshade]

Being Chinese, my parents would take the traditional herbalism route than the conventional doctor and needle route when I was a child. Hate to say it but it worked... not as fast as a needle shot and penecillin or whatever but the concotion that they brewed from the mixture of herbs did sooth my throat and got me feeling better relatively quick compared to when I got older and just got by on rest when I got sick. I should say it tastes really nasty though... and it's really bitter. I much rather prefer getting a shot. Another thing is that when I was a kid, a visit to the doctor was about 30 bucks(no insurance)... now it'll cost you an arm and a leg so herbalism might be worth a look as an alternative as it is also cheap. Not sure how much it costs now though. I haven't gotten sick on over 10 years(minus food poisoning).

I have no experience with acupuncture though and wouldn't mind giving it a try too.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Has anyone here ever tried acupuncture and gone in believing that it wouldn't work? What were the results? I figure we need this kind of review to root out those who may have benefited from a placebo effect.

 

[Titan]

Has anyone here ever tried acupuncture and gone in believing that it wouldn't work? What were the results? I figure we need this kind of review to root out those who may have benefited from a placebo effect.

Define work. I wasn't looking for it, I didn't doubt it, didn't believe it, my chiro just did it. But he put at least 10 needles in my back. I noticed something happening, seemed to help, nothing drastic. Does it cure cancer? Hell no.

Further, what would your question prove with conventional medicine? If I go to the doctor when I have a cold believing it won't work and they give me antibiotics and I don't feel any better and think I would have been the same without them, does that mean it didn't work?

Belief proves nothing. Either stick to 100% rock solid science or try something new and see it for yourself. Acupuncture is pretty safe, and if it isn't you can always sue them.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Define work. I wasn't looking for it, I didn't doubt it, didn't believe it, my chiro just did it. But he put at least 10 needles in my back. I noticed something happening, seemed to help, nothing drastic. Does it cure cancer? Hell no.

Further, what would your question prove with conventional medicine? If I go to the doctor when I have a cold believing it won't work and they give me antibiotics and I don't feel any better and think I would have been the same without them, does that mean it didn't work?

Belief proves nothing. Either stick to 100% rock solid science or try something new and see it for yourself. Acupuncture is pretty safe, and if it isn't you can always sue them.

Conventional medicine has science to back it up. Therefore, people should be going in believing that it SHOULD work. Sometimes the results are mixed (stuff like Tylenol and Advil have never "worked" for me - I feel no different or the results are so mild as to be barely any relief). So if you go to the doctor and he gives you medicine that doesn't make you feel any better, then by definition it didn't work.

If belief proves nothing then why do all good experiments have a control group set up to eliminate the placebo effect among other things? Belief is a very important factor that needs to be controlled in experimentation.

Acupuncture does not have science to back it up. If people go in thinking that it's going to work it's probably going to "work" better for them than people who go in thinking it's not going to work simply because of differing perceptions. But if acupuncture DID work very well for many people who really didn't think that it would work, well, that's a strong argument for its effectiveness.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

placebo at best, dangerous at worst

if the stuff works, it should undergo controlled peer-reviewed studies to prove it and then someone will bring it to market

 

[SociallyChallenged]

placebo at best, dangerous at worst

if the stuff works, it should undergo controlled peer-reviewed studies to prove it and then someone will bring it to market

I agree to this for the majority of alternative medicines. However, acupuncture has quite a bit of research on it. I feel like it works, whether the effects are physiological or psychological in nature. However, I feel that its effects are limited to things like muscle tightness, muscle aches, nerve pain, etc. I don't believe it fixes your insides like some people like to think. I believe it is a skin-deep practice and only helps at the surface level.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I once had a conversation with a western acupuncturist. In western terms, he's tries to improve one's circulation (chi) by stimulating areas of the body with acupuncture. Improving bloodflow and circulation to aid healing.

He was also pretty realistic about it not aiding all issues.

 

[Whisper]

Define work. I wasn't looking for it, I didn't doubt it, didn't believe it, my chiro just did it. But he put at least 10 needles in my back. I noticed something happening, seemed to help, nothing drastic. Does it cure cancer? Hell no.

Further, what would your question prove with conventional medicine? If I go to the doctor when I have a cold believing it won't work and they give me antibiotics and I don't feel any better and think I would have been the same without them, does that mean it didn't work?

Belief proves nothing. Either stick to 100% rock solid science or try something new and see it for yourself. Acupuncture is pretty safe, and if it isn't you can always sue them.

Belief doesn't necessarily prove anything, but given that the placebo effect has been experimentally demonstrated as very real (as another poster mentioned), belief is something that must be controlled for.

In terms of medicine, whether or not you "feel" better may or may not factor in to whether or not the treatment was efficacious. If there's a physiological way of determining the effectiveness that's independent of subjective feeling (e.g., viral load), then how you feel may not necessarily be as important. In other situations, such as with pain relievers for example, subjective ratings before and after administration would likely be quite important...you could still likely look for a physiological effect (which has obviously been done in medical studies), but the subjective reductions in pain are one of the more externally valid measures of a treatment's effectiveness.

Then again, part of it all does really come down to how you define "efficacious/effective." I believe there actually is some clinical research on accupuncture. No clue what the current consensus is. As for herbal remedies, to the best of my knowledge, not much has ever been shown to have any definitive causal effects, one way or the other. Although medicine as a whole generally isn't my area of competence by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Capt Caveman]

fwiw - the acupuncturist I mentioned was a veterinary acupuncturist, if it was a placebo effect, nobody told my dog. The acupuncture sessions helped relieve her of pain as she had less issues getting up and walking around from them.

 

[ichy]

placebo at best, dangerous at worst

if the stuff works, it should undergo controlled peer-reviewed studies to prove it and then someone will bring it to market

99% of the time I agree with you. There's no such thing as "western medicine" and "asian medicine," there's only medicine that's backed by science and medicine that isn't. The overwhelming majority of Asian/alternative/homeopathic/natural medicine falls into the latter category, although from what I understand there is some evidence which shows pain relief benefits from acupuncture.

 

[Titan]

Belief doesn't necessarily prove anything, but given that the placebo effect has been experimentally demonstrated as very real (as another poster mentioned), belief is something that must be controlled for.

In terms of medicine, whether or not you "feel" better may or may not factor in to whether or not the treatment was efficacious. If there's a physiological way of determining the effectiveness that's independent of subjective feeling (e.g., viral load), then how you feel may not necessarily be as important. In other situations, such as with pain relievers for example, subjective ratings before and after administration would likely be quite important...you could still likely look for a physiological effect (which has obviously been done in medical studies), but the subjective reductions in pain are one of the more externally valid measures of a treatment's effectiveness.

Then again, part of it all does really come down to how you define "efficacious/effective." I believe there actually is some clinical research on accupuncture. No clue what the current consensus is. As for herbal remedies, to the best of my knowledge, not much has ever been shown to have any definitive causal effects, one way or the other. Although medicine as a whole generally isn't my area of competence by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree with all that, but I was looking at the practical situation here, sorry I was meta-posting. The OP is basically asking people on an internet forum to ask for people to eliminate their own placebo effects from personal experience. And I don't think that is possible. He wants pure science, he should be asking us to point him to studies. Because no one person can tell you from their anecdotal experience wether it was placebo or not.

I do believe in the scientific method, but in regards to health it has a long way to go. Just to scientifically study every herbal remedy would take a lot of time an resources - and it hasn't been done, possibly because there wouldn't be much money in it compared to pharmaceuticals. Trying to isolate every process, chemical, force, and factor in a repeatable way and then reconstruct the picture with newfound general knowledge just doesn't work yet for human health. (I should correct that - it works to a point, and works well especially for acute things, but not for everything like how to simply feel happy) The picture is too complex and there are a lot of factors. It's a lot like predicting the weather actually. A good weatherman can say when were going to get rain, and a good doctor can tell you a chemical will cure you, they will be right a lot of the time, but not 100%. People have their own internal weather. And then there is a chance their reasoning was wrong but it rained anyway, the drug cured you but you would have cured yourself - you can't always say. At the end of the day medicine is still a practice and not a science. The science has come a long way, but still has a ways to go in terms of reconstructing an entire human being (soul and all) from basic pieces. I'm not sure if the approach can accomplish that. Western medicine is very concerned with what makes someone NOT DEAD, but otherwise is kindof ho-hum.

In many scientific ways the human condition is the same for all of us. But in many unscientific ways our health is unique. There are traditions and practices that try to look at someone as a whole person and not a collection of data. These practices believe in life and a soul in all living things. Sure, that makes it unscientific. But the only way to know if something works, is if it works for you.

That rant is just meant as a brain-dump - stretching my new age side here. I do not mean any disrespect to those in the scientific and medical fields. In fact I hold science in it's highest regard. And I know that medical work is very challenging and I have the utmost respect for people in that field. But above all open-mindedness and willing to explore is key either in a scientific manner or otherwise. I learned a while ago that science is amazing, but it cannot encompass everything because not everything is repeatable, much of our existence is unique. Human life is one such thing. But you do find dualism in many places - we are all the same and unique at the same time.

 

[Deeko]

placebo at best, dangerous at worst

if the stuff works, it should undergo controlled peer-reviewed studies to prove it and then someone will bring it to market

This.

I say, keep that hippy crap away from me.