As long as the ID is yet another representation (like a card to represent someone), it is prone to forgery.
Use the person, nothing more. No tattoo on the forehead, no radioactive insert on the arm as in 'Beautiful Mind'. Scan his finger prints and iris, analyze his voice and smell, etc to identify him.
Time consuming? That's the price to pay!
I grew up in a country when it's required to carry travel document from your home district when you travel. Yer paper plez! That blows llama's arse.
I don't understand why people are negative to this.
You all have passports do you? Same thing.
You have a drivers licence? Same thing.
Pls explain.
You all have passports do you? Same thing.
You have a drivers licence? Same thing.
Pls explain.
Everybody should have an electronic tracking device implanted in their bodies, too. That way our benevolent government could send us help more quickly when we need it, or they could prevent us from injuring ourselves by stopping us from going someplace dangerous. The tracking device would, of course, have a pain generator that would have several levels ranging from mild discomfort to excruciating pain. What a great way to stop crime and accidents. The tracking device could also have an embedded ID code so we wouldn't have to carry a card. The possibilities are boundless for bettering our lives.
You have a social security number. How is this different? Why aren't you complaining about this?
National ID card would be more secure.
Vic
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Simple, passports and drivers' licenses are voluntary. Sure, not getting one might deprive a person of certain priviledges like driving a car or entering a foreign nation, but they are not requirements for everyday life. A National ID card, on the other hand, would NOT be voluntary under any circumstances and therefore would not be the "same thing." By very definition, simply not having a National ID would be a criminal offense.
It's really not that hard to figure out is it?
BTW, from a legal perspective, a National ID card is completely unconstitutional, as it violates 4th Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure, i.e. no person can be asked for their papers unless there is probable cause or a warrant against them.
Who said that the National ID Card would be any different than a Driver's License or SSN? Nobody. You're jumping to conclusions. Where did you get the idea it would be required for every citizen to get one? I'm curious.
Fair enough. Bur in real life there wouldn't be much difference for someone who already have a passport and drivers licence, and most (not all) people have a drivers licence.
<----- Foreigner who moved here in January.
Umm, OK. You have succeeded to go 10 times farther than anyone else in this thread. Are you trying to explain how one violation of freedom will turn into 1000 others? Then explain to me what the deal is with smoking laws.
Because a nation ID card would cover more than the alabama drivers license does....duh.
If implemented I have no doubt it would be manditory.
The card itself is not to be used as a means of identification. What do you think identifies you to the
Credit Bureaus? Why is it unique per person? Now go back to your y2k bunker.
Duh? Whatever.
I believe that we still are a nation governed by the majority, with most (getting worse) minority rights protected. Do you honestly believe that it would be mandatory, and even if it were, do you believe that the people would allow abuse by the government with a national ID? I don't.
Edit: Believe it or not, the US Government is controlled completely by the people. Sure there is political deception and turmoil, but in the end, the people still hold the axe. In reality, it's the majority vote and opinion everyone should be wary of.
Vic
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LMAO!!
I should have known from your ridiculous and contradictory first post (in which oh so intelligently postulated that having a National ID card was the best way to prevent government intrusion in people's lives
By very definition, a National ID card (or similar) would be a requirement for every citizen. That is NOT "jumping to conclusions." It is fact.
There are also 2 types of people in this debate. Those who intelligently recognize what a threat to freedom a National ID system would be, and those idiots who naively think that it is no different than a credit card.
How about I analyze your first post?
In summary, your wonderful arguments
- Government intrusion is bad so I think we should increase it by giving the government the right to track all of our movements.
- The best way to protect our freedoms is to give them up.
- Then all honest citizens will be treated like how criminals are treated.
- All of our rights will be preserved when we have no rights.
Don't fault me, those are your arguments.
If it were not mandatory, what would I do when asked for it if I didn't have one?
Would this prohibit me from flying, driving, buying a house, getting a job?
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
LMAO!!) that you have no idea what you are talking about. By very definition, a National ID card (or similar) would be a requirement for every citizen. That is NOT "jumping to conclusions." It is fact. There are also 2 types of people in this debate. Those who intelligently recognize what a threat to freedom a National ID system would be, and those idiots who naively think that it is no different than a credit card. How about I analyze your first post?In summary, your wonderful arguments: - Government intrusion is bad so I think we should increase it by giving the government the right to track all of our movements. - The best way to protect our freedoms is to give them up. - Then all honest citizens will be treated like how criminals are treated. - All of our rights will be preserved when we have no rights. Don't fault me, those are your arguments.
You can laugh all you want. You are the short sighted one.
Do I think a National ID card would be ideal? No. Do I think it's the best solution to the already blatant violations of freedom we are all dealing with since Sept. 11, yes. You state that by very definition a National ID Card would be required for all citizens. Rediculous. You are paranoid.
Do I think it would be like a credit card. Hell no. But unlike you, you pessimistic boob, I do believe in the American system of government. No, I do not believe our system of government would allow a national ID to violate our freedom.
Yes government intrusion is bad, but I believe that giving them a system to work with (and be held accountable for) is a hell of a lot better then sitting back and watching the government violate our rights day by day because we are scared of the next attack. This is all about control BY THE PEOPLE, by giving the government a system they CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR by the courts.
It's about faith in the core system of our government. Obviously you have none.
Vic
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Having credit is voluntary. When you sign up for it, you acknowledge the use of your SSN and consent for it (and I'm a loan officer so I know all about this, I pull more reports in a week that you will have pulled for you in your lifetime). Once again, the use of an ID card would not be voluntary (like your credit example), but mandatory. When I pull someone's credit, I have to specifically ask for the authorization. If there is a question or the customer is physically present in our office, I have to have them sign their consent before I pull their credit. The difference between voluntary and mandatory really escapes you, doesn't it?
"y2k bunker?"
LOL, you do realize that you have admitted you just lost this debate by your use of ad hominem.
Exactly! Otherwise, people would open a new credit account every week
.It's not a photo ID, granted. But even its original intention is to identify someone to when processing his/her social security benefit.
Vic
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Originally posted by: NateSLC
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
LMAO!!) that you have no idea what you are talking about. By very definition, a National ID card (or similar) would be a requirement for every citizen. That is NOT "jumping to conclusions." It is fact. There are also 2 types of people in this debate. Those who intelligently recognize what a threat to freedom a National ID system would be, and those idiots who naively think that it is no different than a credit card. How about I analyze your first post?In summary, your wonderful arguments: - Government intrusion is bad so I think we should increase it by giving the government the right to track all of our movements. - The best way to protect our freedoms is to give them up. - Then all honest citizens will be treated like how criminals are treated. - All of our rights will be preserved when we have no rights. Don't fault me, those are your arguments.
You can laugh all you want. You are the short sighted one.
Do I think a National ID card would be ideal? No. Do I think it's the best solution to the already blatant violations of freedom we are all dealing with since Sept. 11, yes. You state that by very definition a National ID Card would be required for all citizens. Rediculous. You are paranoid.
Do I think it would be like a credit card. Hell no. But unlike you, you pessimistic boob, I do believe in the American system of government. No, I do not believe our system of government would allow a national ID to violate our freedom.
Yes government intrusion is bad, but I believe that giving them a system to work with (and be held accountable for) is a hell of a lot better then sitting back and watching the government violate our rights day by day because we are scared of the next attack. This is all about control BY THE PEOPLE, by giving the government a system they CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR by the courts.
It's about faith in the core system of our government. Obviously you have none.
Yes, yes... I see your point.
Our Founding Fathers, more than 200 years ago, were very familiar with the concepts your espouse. They called it "Tyranny of the Majority," and Jefferson (in particular) was very concerned about it.
Just because "the people" control government does not make a nation free. Limited government is what makes a nation free, and it was the concept that out nation was founded on. And that is where our core system of government is and where my faith lies.
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
Yes, yes... I see your point.Originally posted by: NateSLCYou can laugh all you want. You are the short sighted one. Do I think a National ID card would be ideal? No. Do I think it's the best solution to the already blatant violations of freedom we are all dealing with since Sept. 11, yes. You state that by very definition a National ID Card would be required for all citizens. Rediculous. You are paranoid. Do I think it would be like a credit card. Hell no. But unlike you, you pessimistic boob, I do believe in the American system of government. No, I do not believe our system of government would allow a national ID to violate our freedom. Yes government intrusion is bad, but I believe that giving them a system to work with (and be held accountable for) is a hell of a lot better then sitting back and watching the government violate our rights day by day because we are scared of the next attack. This is all about control BY THE PEOPLE, by giving the government a system they CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR by the courts. It's about faith in the core system of our government. Obviously you have none.Originally posted by: PSYWVicLMAO!!) that you have no idea what you are talking about. By very definition, a National ID card (or similar) would be a requirement for every citizen. That is NOT "jumping to conclusions." It is fact. There are also 2 types of people in this debate. Those who intelligently recognize what a threat to freedom a National ID system would be, and those idiots who naively think that it is no different than a credit card. How about I analyze your first post?In summary, your wonderful arguments: - Government intrusion is bad so I think we should increase it by giving the government the right to track all of our movements. - The best way to protect our freedoms is to give them up. - Then all honest citizens will be treated like how criminals are treated. - All of our rights will be preserved when we have no rights. Don't fault me, those are your arguments.Our Founding Fathers, more than 200 years ago, were very familiar with the concepts your espouse. They called it "Tyranny of the Majority," and Jefferson (in particular) was very concerned about it. Just because "the people" control government does not make a nation free. Limited government is what makes a nation free, and it was the concept that out nation was founded on. And that is where our core system of government is and where my faith lies.
I agree completely. However, we are in threat of destruction by terrorism. I am simply trying to find the better of two evils here. I find more comfort in a defined system of freedom violation that the system can control rather than the chaotic mess we have now. I would rather the founding father's ideals be realized, but something in my heart tells me they identified these wonderful ideals knowing it was a "pie in the sky" in an attempt to reach them as closely as possible.
May we forever strive for these ideals.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Who is pessimistic?
Seriously. There are always threats to freedom. The current batch of criminals that we call terrorists have publicly stated that it is not America they seek to destroy, but freedom. Giving in to your fears of them will only help them to accomplish their goal.
"Vigilance, eternal vigilance, is the price of freedom."
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
Having credit is voluntary. When you sign up for it, you acknowledge the use of your SSN and consent for it (and I'm a loan officer so I know all about this, I pull more reports in a week that you will have pulled for you in your lifetime). Once again, the use of an ID card would not be voluntary (like your credit example), but mandatory. When I pull someone's credit, I have to specifically ask for the authorization. If there is a question or the customer is physically present in our office, I have to have them sign their consent before I pull their credit. The difference between voluntary and mandatory really escapes you, doesn't it?
"y2k bunker?"
I was taking a shot at your perceived paranoia in response to your rudeness. That said, what debate? I asked a question
about how a social security NUMBER is that different from a national id card. You responded that the CARD is not to be
used as a means of identification. This is not related to my question and I point that out since the NUMBER is indeed used
to identify people even if it is voluntary. The IRS also uses your SSN, but of course earning an income is voluntary. So what
debate is there? Answer my question (with an addendum) and you can claim to win whatever debate/argument/beauty contest
without any objections from me.
The question is:
How is a SSN that different from a National ID card? Doesn't everyone have a SSN? If not everyone has one, then my question
has been answered.
No, we aren't. The only thing that terrorism is threatening is our freedoms. It doesn't do that directly but it forces Congress to take away freedoms for a false sense of security. A national ID card would help nothing. What happens when you're stopped and you don't have yours with you? What happens when the terrorists gain citizenship? What about people here on visas? They can still commit terrorism. I'm pretty sure the Brits tried something like this back in WW2 to help catch German spies. You know how many spies they caught that way? Zero.
You may have faith in the US system of government but you have to remember that it's run by people. People are corruptible.
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