what are the long term effects of outsourcing?

[CPA]

I'm glad you asked.

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: Zombie

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
People seriously need to get over their hatred of outsourcing.

The US has always dumped it's crap jobs on other people. People bitched when manufacturing began to move out of the country, people will bitch for this too. What does it accomplish?

1) Lowers costs of goods
2) Increases profit for company
3) Provides good jobs for thousands of foreign workers (We may think it's horrible that they're paid a fraction of what we are, but in their world they're living like kings because of it)
4) It frees us up to do other things Who knows yet what those things will be, but there will always be a next big thing.

For the record, I'm being replaced by someone in Canada making less than 1/2 what I do. That's OK by me.

why cant the bastards that make millions a year just suck it up and pay workers in the US instead of India?

Because you, the consumer, are addicted to Hot Deals. You think nobody should be entitled to a profit, or (heaven forbid) make millions a year.

Friggin' socialistic crap.

[EDIT]As posted above me, things will reach equilibrium - In the meantime things are going to change rapidly. The only ones who get hurt are the ones who don't adapt.[/EDIT]

Viper GTS

Wanna point out couple of things here

Education in India is far cheaper than in US(quality is comparable if not better)Like you said if products are getting cheaper why is the cost of living going up? On the other hand cost of living in India has not gone up that much(considering money people are making now as opposed to 10 years ago)

Then why do they come over here in droves to go to college? I don't see many Americans going to India for schooling

 

[NogginBoink]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: NogginBoink

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
so dell moved to another country...they are still selling their stuff at the same price, but they are doing it for way cheaper. sure, dell is doing much better, but think of all the people who no longer have jobs. that means they now have less income and cant afford to buy as much. ok, so take the next company, and move them, now another bunch of people make less. soon a lot of people will be making a lot less, so no one will even be able to afford things besides the basics anymore. it just doesnt make sense to me that companies would do this...someone please explain so that i can understand.

I'll try to use small words here so you can understand.

Workers in America are expensive. Workers overseas are cheap.

By hiring overseas workers, companies can produce goods cheaper and sell them cheaper and stay in business.

If companies hire American workers, it costs more to make stuff, so they have to sell them at more expensive prices, and nobody buys them, and the company goes out of business.

What's so hard to understand about that?

its just a question. i am perfectly capable of understanding bigger words, so if you think you can give a more indepth analysis, i am all for it. otherwise, shove it up your ass.

that is the most elementary concept...and any idiot can understand it. did you even read what i said a few posts down?

You seem to think that companies have some sort of moral social obligation to do what's in the best interest of the nation as a whole.

No such obligation exists. Companies exist to maximize shareholder value. Keeping jobs in the U.S. does the opposite.

It doesn't matter what social or ethical arguments you try to use, this is a purely economic issue.

Edit: Also, each company makes its own decisions independently of any other company. So while your argument starts to make sense on a macro scale, the effect is caused by a bunch of decisions made on a micro scale.

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: NogginBoink

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: NogginBoink

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
so dell moved to another country...they are still selling their stuff at the same price, but they are doing it for way cheaper. sure, dell is doing much better, but think of all the people who no longer have jobs. that means they now have less income and cant afford to buy as much. ok, so take the next company, and move them, now another bunch of people make less. soon a lot of people will be making a lot less, so no one will even be able to afford things besides the basics anymore. it just doesnt make sense to me that companies would do this...someone please explain so that i can understand.

I'll try to use small words here so you can understand.

Workers in America are expensive. Workers overseas are cheap.

By hiring overseas workers, companies can produce goods cheaper and sell them cheaper and stay in business.

If companies hire American workers, it costs more to make stuff, so they have to sell them at more expensive prices, and nobody buys them, and the company goes out of business.

What's so hard to understand about that?

its just a question. i am perfectly capable of understanding bigger words, so if you think you can give a more indepth analysis, i am all for it. otherwise, shove it up your ass.

that is the most elementary concept...and any idiot can understand it. did you even read what i said a few posts down?

You seem to think that companies have some sort of moral social obligation to do what's in the best interest of the nation as a whole.

No such obligation exists. Companies exist to maximize shareholder value. Keeping jobs in the U.S. does the opposite.

It doesn't matter what social or ethical arguments you try to use, this is a purely economic issue.

That and keeping jobs in the US on those grounds is bad in the long run. Look at the steel industry - DEAD! Instead of investing in better processes, the unions forced them to do things the old way and pay their workers too much. Thoses jobs stuck around until the steel buyers (who weren't beholden to the unions) stopped buying the overpriced steel...

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: marquee

I think the cost of living takes more than just product prices, it also accounts for increases in renting/buying homes, energy costs (gas is getting more expensive), higher college tuition prices, health care costs, insurance, etc... Inflation the last few years has pretty much been non existant, but there's more to that when calculating cost of living.

good points...now i am curious what YOU think will be the outcome of outsourcing. good or bad?

Like I said, I don't think we really know yet.

In theory, it should all equalize and everything will be OK...

But our economy seems to be like a realitivly slow growing tree in the scheme of things, with marked good and bad growing seasons.. When you add fertilizer, it takes a while for the results to show. If something in the environment changes, the effects also take time to become visable.

The point of that analogy is to say that obviously, there are going to be "bad" times, followed by "wonderful" times, followed by "boring" times inbetween.

Things can certainly fall apart to the point of near death.. I guess that's what the gubment has to try and prevent. Is there really anything we could/can do(in that event), or would it be up to the government to "fix" it?

Isn't withdrawing all your money the worst thing you can do? lol..

I guess I don't really know much about the Depression.

 

[Zombie]

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Zombie

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
People seriously need to get over their hatred of outsourcing.

The US has always dumped it's crap jobs on other people. People bitched when manufacturing began to move out of the country, people will bitch for this too. What does it accomplish?

1) Lowers costs of goods
2) Increases profit for company
3) Provides good jobs for thousands of foreign workers (We may think it's horrible that they're paid a fraction of what we are, but in their world they're living like kings because of it)
4) It frees us up to do other things Who knows yet what those things will be, but there will always be a next big thing.

For the record, I'm being replaced by someone in Canada making less than 1/2 what I do. That's OK by me.

why cant the bastards that make millions a year just suck it up and pay workers in the US instead of India?

Because you, the consumer, are addicted to Hot Deals. You think nobody should be entitled to a profit, or (heaven forbid) make millions a year.

Friggin' socialistic crap.

[EDIT]As posted above me, things will reach equilibrium - In the meantime things are going to change rapidly. The only ones who get hurt are the ones who don't adapt.[/EDIT]

Viper GTS

Wanna point out couple of things here

Education in India is far cheaper than in US(quality is comparable if not better)Like you said if products are getting cheaper why is the cost of living going up? On the other hand cost of living in India has not gone up that much(considering money people are making now as opposed to 10 years ago)

Then why do they come over here in droves to go to college? I don't see many Americans going to India for schooling

Those Indians come here for Grad School or other higher education. They don't come here for undergrad stupid.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: BD2003
As everyone has said before, its a global economy. Outsourcing programming to india is the same as having our sneakers made in china. Its just cheaper there.

Although I am in agreement that most of the new jobs coming up here are low paying, that will also reach equilibrium. I believe that what we need to do is revamp our education system to make it cheaper. We need more skills to survive nowadays, and we are going to be in a dire situation if our population is not up to the task. With education getting so expensive, only the currently rich can afford it, and then we're slowly going back to the middle ages. It needs to stop.

Right now we are in a transitionary period. Programming is a pretty high level job, and its being done overseas...whats next? For the short term, american wealth will probably on average go down (not considering the greedy CEOs), while the developing countries go up. But once the indians themselves can afford to buy all this stuff we cant get enough of, the trade deficit will slowly dimish, and next thing you know, indian companies might be outsourcing to america cause its too damn expensive there.

Because nowadays, you have to have foresight. Instead of bitching how things arent how they used to be, you have to be able to adapt and find a niche where you can thrive. Instead of bitching how dell jobs are getting sent overseas, buy dell stock. I think that the average american simply does not realize how filthy rich he is compared to the rest of the world. We take EVERYTHING for granted here, and now we're being spoiled babies because some of it is getting taken away. To think some people might not be able to afford that SUV this year, and have to go with an econobox...while the rest of the world can barely afford econoboxes to begin with.

Because if all goes as planned, the end result will be an entire world that is civilized and wealthy. When everyone has money, there will be much less cause for war, and damn cooler things, because theres quite simply more smart and rich people. But we started this mess, so now we have to sit through it to the end. Our politicians are pandering to the masses and telling them what they want to hear.

excellent...exactly the response i was looking for. btw, i hope you werent saying i was bitching. i was just giving examples to help people to understand what i was interested in talking about. i can adapt fairly well and i realize the only way to get moving financially is to either find a niche or be exceptional at what everyone else can already do.

If Im being perfectly honest, I dont think america stands a chance in this global economy, unless our entire mentality and government changes drastically. Our constitution and general mentality was forged hundreds of years ago, and it is fast becoming outdated. The realities of new technology is not reflected in our constitution.

Free speech is a great thing, and if anything its needs the least amount of change, but with the internet, speech is a hell of a lot freer than it ever was. Right to bear arms is also a good thing, but they had muskets back in those days, now we have concealable submachineguns. And so on and so on.

What we have is a patchwork society. When something goes wrong, just patch the hole up enough to keep the boat afloat. We're practically floating on bandages nowdays. Our ideal of hands off capitalism has led to the VAST rift between rich and poor. I dont care how many feel good american dream stories you come up with, the poor simply dont have a chance to rise up in our nation anymore. Back in the 20s you could be a hard working poor man with a good idea and work your way up to something big. Nowadays you cant get a decent job without a degree, and you cant get a degree without forking over a ton of cash. And your current job is probably so low paying that you have to work overtime every day just to keep afloat, which leaves little time for school anyway.

But who wants to listen to a politician thats saying these things, regardless of whether or not he's telling the truth? No no, instead he's just going to lower taxes, lower gas prices, and stop companies from shipping overseas! Yay our savior! None of these things are going to work. There are realities that our country needs to face now, before its too late. If we're going to compete on a global market, we need to be a global entity. The rich can afford to play this game, because theyre rich. Theyre the ones controlling the power, and they have much less to risk that the average american. When the rich are in control, the only reforms that are going to be made are the ones that benefit them. And that is exactly what is happening, and will continue to happen.

What we need is cheaper healthcare (doctors should be for the sick, not for the rich), cheaper education, and a social conscience that realizes the realities of a global market.

Imagine what would happen to your body if a few of the cells had access to all of resources. They would grow nonstop, while the rest of the body withers, does what it can with what it has, gets a handout every now and then, but in the end what you have is basically....cancer. Great for the cancer cells, bad for the body, and once the body goes....so does the cancer.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Zombie

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
People seriously need to get over their hatred of outsourcing.

The US has always dumped it's crap jobs on other people. People bitched when manufacturing began to move out of the country, people will bitch for this too. What does it accomplish?

1) Lowers costs of goods
2) Increases profit for company
3) Provides good jobs for thousands of foreign workers (We may think it's horrible that they're paid a fraction of what we are, but in their world they're living like kings because of it)
4) It frees us up to do other things Who knows yet what those things will be, but there will always be a next big thing.

For the record, I'm being replaced by someone in Canada making less than 1/2 what I do. That's OK by me.

why cant the bastards that make millions a year just suck it up and pay workers in the US instead of India?

Because you, the consumer, are addicted to Hot Deals. You think nobody should be entitled to a profit, or (heaven forbid) make millions a year.

Friggin' socialistic crap.

[EDIT]As posted above me, things will reach equilibrium - In the meantime things are going to change rapidly. The only ones who get hurt are the ones who don't adapt.[/EDIT]

Viper GTS

Wanna point out couple of things here

Education in India is far cheaper than in US(quality is comparable if not better)Like you said if products are getting cheaper why is the cost of living going up? On the other hand cost of living in India has not gone up that much(considering money people are making now as opposed to 10 years ago)

Then why do they come over here in droves to go to college? I don't see many Americans going to India for schooling

I bet you would be surprised.

Either way you look at it, it's going to be a minority. Americans in India, Indians in America.

Shrug.

 

[CPA]

once again, since it looks like it got buried amongst the current argument

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: BD2003
As everyone has said before, its a global economy. Outsourcing programming to india is the same as having our sneakers made in china. Its just cheaper there.

Although I am in agreement that most of the new jobs coming up here are low paying, that will also reach equilibrium. I believe that what we need to do is revamp our education system to make it cheaper. We need more skills to survive nowadays, and we are going to be in a dire situation if our population is not up to the task. With education getting so expensive, only the currently rich can afford it, and then we're slowly going back to the middle ages. It needs to stop.

Right now we are in a transitionary period. Programming is a pretty high level job, and its being done overseas...whats next? For the short term, american wealth will probably on average go down (not considering the greedy CEOs), while the developing countries go up. But once the indians themselves can afford to buy all this stuff we cant get enough of, the trade deficit will slowly dimish, and next thing you know, indian companies might be outsourcing to america cause its too damn expensive there.

Because nowadays, you have to have foresight. Instead of bitching how things arent how they used to be, you have to be able to adapt and find a niche where you can thrive. Instead of bitching how dell jobs are getting sent overseas, buy dell stock. I think that the average american simply does not realize how filthy rich he is compared to the rest of the world. We take EVERYTHING for granted here, and now we're being spoiled babies because some of it is getting taken away. To think some people might not be able to afford that SUV this year, and have to go with an econobox...while the rest of the world can barely afford econoboxes to begin with.

Because if all goes as planned, the end result will be an entire world that is civilized and wealthy. When everyone has money, there will be much less cause for war, and damn cooler things, because theres quite simply more smart and rich people. But we started this mess, so now we have to sit through it to the end. Our politicians are pandering to the masses and telling them what they want to hear.

excellent...exactly the response i was looking for. btw, i hope you werent saying i was bitching. i was just giving examples to help people to understand what i was interested in talking about. i can adapt fairly well and i realize the only way to get moving financially is to either find a niche or be exceptional at what everyone else can already do.

If Im being perfectly honest, I dont think america stands a chance in this global economy, unless our entire mentality and government changes drastically. Our constitution and general mentality was forged hundreds of years ago, and it is fast becoming outdated. The realities of new technology is not reflected in our constitution.

Free speech is a great thing, and if anything its needs the least amount of change, but with the internet, speech is a hell of a lot freer than it ever was. Right to bear arms is also a good thing, but they had muskets back in those days, now we have concealable submachineguns. And so on and so on.

What we have is a patchwork society. When something goes wrong, just patch the hole up enough to keep the boat afloat. We're practically floating on bandages nowdays. Our ideal of hands off capitalism has led to the VAST rift between rich and poor. I dont care how many feel good american dream stories you come up with, the poor simply dont have a chance to rise up in our nation anymore. Back in the 20s you could be a hard working poor man with a good idea and work your way up to something big. Nowadays you cant get a decent job without a degree, and you cant get a degree without forking over a ton of cash. And your current job is probably so low paying that you have to work overtime every day just to keep afloat, which leaves little time for school anyway.

But who wants to listen to a politician thats saying these things, regardless of whether or not he's telling the truth? No no, instead he's just going to lower taxes, lower gas prices, and stop companies from shipping overseas! Yay our savior! None of these things are going to work. There are realities that our country needs to face now, before its too late. If we're going to compete on a global market, we need to be a global entity. The rich can afford to play this game, because theyre rich. Theyre the ones controlling the power, and they have much less to risk that the average american. When the rich are in control, the only reforms that are going to be made are the ones that benefit them. And that is exactly what is happening, and will continue to happen.

What we need is cheaper healthcare (doctors should be for the sick, not for the rich), cheaper education, and a social conscience that realizes the realities of a global market.

Imagine what would happen to your body if a few of the cells had access to all of resources. They would grow nonstop, while the rest of the body withers, does what it can with what it has, gets a handout every now and then, but in the end what you have is basically....cancer. Great for the cancer cells, bad for the body, and once the body goes....so does the cancer.

This post is incredibly depressing.

Particularly the bolded.

/looks in mirror

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: CPA
once again, since it looks like it got buried amongst the current argument

the article has a nice heading, but it also says some negative things about outsourcing

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: CPA
once again, since it looks like it got buried amongst the current argument

the article has a nice heading, but it also says some negative things about outsourcing

True, but I also think it goes against some myths.

 

[MrDudeMan]

bd2003...thanks for shedding some light on this for me. that makes so much sense.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: CPA
once again, since it looks like it got buried amongst the current argument

the article has a nice heading, but it also says some negative things about outsourcing

True, but I also think it goes against some myths.

true, and i have no counter-arguement this time

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
bd2003...thanks for shedding some light on this for me. that makes so much sense.

I do what I can.

But of course, this is the future we're talking about, so anything can happen...but from what I can see, and what history should be teaching us...that is the direction we are heading.

There is a reason that no empire lasts forever. Its because old tricks dont last forever, and overconfidence is the catalyst for the downfall. Instead of adapting, we try to muscle our way through things. Look at what happened to rome when they abused the goths, or what happened to france when they held their people down for too long.

Developing countries have a chance to look at america, what is wrong with it, and how to do it better. We're becoming bloated like microsoft software here. The legacy of years past is not being erased. We're stuck with the remnants of our old way of life, and its very hard to change them. Personally, Im not even sure no matter how vast the reforms that are made that the people of our country can handle it.

But that is the good thing about a global economy. Its global. Things get any worse, Ill take my productivity to another country that doesnt have its head so far up its ass that it cant see the train coming. Either that, or Ill find a nice spot in the middle of nowhere, and take it easy. I grew up a poor boy (by american standards). I know I can live without our luxuries. I just hope the retards with the finger on the button can too.

 

[MrDudeMan]

LOL bd2003 i like your last sentence.

after reading your posts...i really do understand this whole sitaution a lot better. that should give me something to think about for a while... :beer:

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: NogginBoink

Originally posted by: dman
The only problem I have is we are endorsing a way of life that we don't accept on our own soil. And thus, we are pricing ourselves out of the market. More or less.

This is true. However, long-term, the standard of living overseas will increase as a result and will eventually reach equilibrium with domestic standards of living. At which time we'll probably see a wave of 'insourcing.'

This is why I have a problem with outsourcing....most of it is done with countries that have a MUCH lower standard of living. This causes our standard to drag down to reach a lower level.

Company sends jobs to overseas low standard of living area.....company saves money
Company lays off US workers that would have been the customers of these products...
Less customers in US = less in sales of the companies
Lowering standard of living of the customers also = the seeking of even cheaper goods.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Chadder007

Originally posted by: NogginBoink

Originally posted by: dman
The only problem I have is we are endorsing a way of life that we don't accept on our own soil. And thus, we are pricing ourselves out of the market. More or less.

This is true. However, long-term, the standard of living overseas will increase as a result and will eventually reach equilibrium with domestic standards of living. At which time we'll probably see a wave of 'insourcing.'

This is why I have a problem with outsourcing....most of it is done with countries that have a MUCH lower standard of living. This causes our standard to drag down to reach a lower level.

Company sends jobs to overseas low standard of living area.....company saves money
Company lays off US workers that would have been the customers of these products...
Less customers in US = less in sales of the companies
Lowering standard of living of the customers also = the seeking of even cheaper goods.

It seems as if you totally ignored the post you replied to. Your equations are missing quite a few variables.


Company sends jobs to overseas low standard of living area.....company saves money - Check

Company lays off US workers that would have been the customers of these products... - Check

Less customers in US = less in sales of the companies - Almost. Indian Programmers (to use a typical example), are paid much less than American programmers, but far more than the average indian. They can afford the things that these companies make to a degree now, and more later.

Lowering standard of living of the customers also = the seeking of even cheaper goods. Again...almost. Lower standard of living here, higher standard of living there. Evens it out. Corporations are transnational, and dont care about america only.

Outsourcing is a great idea for productivity and economic growth. Just not our AMERICAN SHORT TERM MIDDLE CLASS economic growth. Things change, and you can bellyache about it, or deal with it, and adapt to it. If you think this is the first time economic equations have drastically changed, youre in for a shock. You dont hear people still complaining about how railroads, airplanes, interstate highways and massive corporations have runied local business anymore, because we have adapted to the change, and the benefits in general outweigh the negatives. Same with oursourcing.

But a politician simply isnt going to get reelected by telling you the above, he has to pander to the masses if he wants to get elected. That is why stupid things like tax refunds, and invading a country because it has a lot of oil work. Dont worry guys, America is always right, and if anyone says otherwise, we'll kick their ass.