What amount of miles makes a Honda civic start to show it's age? Also what is the most important info to ask for about?

[Thegonagle]

Originally posted by: coolred
Are there any good places that talk about the reliability of cars? I have been reading consumerguide a lot lately, but they don't say much about reliability.

Go out and try to find the april issue (AKA annual auto issue) of Consumer Reports. There's a lot of good info in there every year.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Garfang

Originally posted by: coolred
Are there any good places that talk about the reliability of cars? I have been reading consumerguide a lot lately, but they don't say much about reliability.

Go out and try to find the april issue (AKA annual auto issue) of Consumer Reports. There's a lot of good info in there every year.

Or better yet, get a free months worth

 

[coolred]

This stinks, I can't seem to find a car I like that is a decent invest, that I can actually afford.

 

[coolred]

Oh I almost forgot. The cavalier got a 3 for drivers and 4 for passenger in the crash test.

 

[coolred]

How about the pntiac sunfire, any good? What domestic cars are good. And how do they stack up against the Japanese cars?

 

[Thegonagle]

The Sunfire is on par with the Cavalier, since they are GM twins. Hey, they're cheap. If you get one with under 30,000 miles, and keep it in good shape, it should be an OK car for you. They will likely have a few more problems than a Civic, as you might guess, and you'll find that they're relatively unrefined, with a slow-breathing engine, but I wouldn't rule them out completely if I was in your situation.

Hell, I'm not even close to "in your situation," yet I just bought a (very) used Saturn to drive around instead of my Civic because it was so cheap. Of course, I'm totally into saving money, and not flaunting any of the $15-19/hr that I make (because I know it's not all that much.) The people who actually have a lot of money in the bank almost invariably live well below their means.

 

[SuperTool]

I second the Chevy/Geo Metro suggestion. It's a corolla with chevy/geo badge, but that chevy badge brings the price down by $1K for an excellent and peppy small car.
Also check out 1995-1996 Nissan Altimas. They are a lot of car for the money. reliable, bigger than civics, more power, etc. Civics are great cars, but they are overpriced for what you get, unless you really care about handling, because they do have better suspensions.

 

[coolred]

So is a 2002 civic a good car to lease or a bad car?

 

[coolred]

What I mean is, I know they hold thier value quite well, so would a civic be a better deal in a lease then say a focus or something else that doesn't have a very high resale value?

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: coolred
What I mean is, I know they hold thier value quite well, so would a civic be a better deal in a lease then say a focus or something else that doesn't have a very high resale value?

Depends - sometimes Ford/GM subsidize their leases and purposely inflate the residual value of the car to make it more desireable and competative with foreign competitors. With a focus though, you'd be better off just financing. You're payments will be lower than a lease, and after another year or two, you'll own the car. Pretty much the same with cavaliers.

If you want to save some money, like you sound like you need to do, go used. A 99'ish altima will run you $9,000 and come nicely equiped. Monthly payments on it will be in the $200 range with a 50 month loan, with no down payment. Put $2,000 or so down and you can be into $150 a month payments. Not too shabby. Altimas are great cars, have good room, are uber reliable, and if they do break down, they are much cheaper than their competitors to repair.

 

[coolred]

Well I think these are subsidized loans. Subsidized means that it is national,. not just limited to a certain car or dealership, right? You can lease a civic for 36 months at 149.00 a month with 3000.00 down, 179.00 with 2000.00 down and 209.00 with 1000.000 down. Plus they have a push pull or drag in your trade for a minimum of 2000.00, which would be good as the car we would like to get rid of is not worth much. The downside to this lease is that it's only 12,000 miles a year. Does anyone know about how much bumping that up to 15,000 a year would cost? As you all have noticed I don't have a lot of money right now. I figured leasing for a few years would get me a new car for a decent payment that is under warranty for the entire time, then if I save up some money maybe I can afford to buy it. Do civics normally end up being worth more or less then what is expected. I mean say the dealer tells you a 18,000 dollar car will be worth 12,000 at the end of the lease. So at the end of the lease do civics usually end up being worth more or less then the quote given?

 

[vi edit]

No, by subsidize I mean that Ford or GM will give their lease vehicles unrealistictly high residuals. For example, a focus might only retain 40% of it's original price after 36 months and 36,000 miles, and the monthly rate *should* cost you about $300 a month. But, in order to be competitive with honda/toyota they purposely raise the residual values to something like 52% and in turn you'll only have to pay around $230 a month.

You've asked for our opinions, so I'll give you mine again - look at these cars.

They are 97-99 Nissan Altimas. A $9,000 loan financed at 8.24% for 50 months will run you $213 a month. You don't have to put a dime down except tax, title, and license. Tax will run about $450 depending upon state sales tax, and title and license shouldn't run much more than a hundred or two. If you can sell/trade in you current car for $1000, and then put down another $1000, for a total down payment of $2000, then you only have to finance $7000 and it'll run you $165 a month.

Altimas are great cars as I have mentioned before. If you buy from a dealer, you may even be able to get a certified vehicle with a warranty.

Your insurance will be cheaper, you'll actually build equity, and I personally feel you are getting considerably more car for your money.

 

[coolred]

According to edmunds you are right, but I beleive I am also right.

In subsidized leases, the interest rates are very low and residual values are very high. Subsidized leases allow dealers to lower payments by artificially raising residual values or lowering the capitalized cost through dealer incentives. You can easily recognize a subsidized lease. Any nationally or regionally advertised lease is generally subsidized by the manufacturer to keep lease payments low. The $189 per month VW Jetta is an example of a subsidized lease payment. It is based on a 1.9 percent APR. If you read the fine print, you see that it is a 48-month lease; tax and license fees have not been added; and it requires a $2,500 payment at signing.

So by that, that means that in my example the dealership says that the car will be worth 12,000 at the end of the lease. But in a subsidized lease they use a number like 14,000 or whatever instead, so that I will have lower payments, which is what i want. But then at the end of the lease the car is prolly only worth the 12,000, so are they gonna wanna sell the car for 14,000 or 12,000? Remember my numbers are just random, I didn't use any calculations to figure them.

I will take a look at the altima, but I think I have checked it out before and didn't care for it, but I have been looking at a lot of cars, so i will check again to make sure its what I am thinking of? I agree i would rather own then lease, but i don't have the money right now to try to buy a non warrented car. Also how exactly will buying a car help me build equity. I mean there not like houses, the older they get the less they are worth?

 

[coolred]

I looked into the altima, and while it looks like a nice car, it doesn't get the greatest gas mileage, and is still probablly bigger then what i need. Thanks for the suggestion though. I appreciate all your help

 

[vi edit]

Also how exactly will buying a car help me build equity. I mean there not like houses, the older they get the less they are worth?

After 4 years of financing you own the car, and you have equity in the amount of whatever it's current market value is. So say you buy a $9000 car. After 4 years of payments you own the car and it's worth $4,000. You have $4,000 in equity in the car that you can regain by trading in, selling off, or just keeping the car.

If you lease a vehicle, the lease is figured so that you have no equity in the car. You pay a monthly payment, and gain nothing at the end of the term. After three years of paying $200 a month, all you have to show for your payments is a deficeit of $7000 in your checking account. Nothing more. You have no equity to put twords a trade in, you have no equity that can regain by selling the car, and you have to turn around and just dump more money out again to either buy another car (with no trade in amount) or to drop another $2000 or however much down to get into another lease.

If there is ANY advice that you should know, it is this -

DO NOT PAY MONEY UP FRONT FOR A LEASE!!!! That is money money that you just threw away. Gone. Lost. Forever. If you put $2000 down, you just turned that attractive $180 a month payment for 36 months into a $235 a month payment, PLUS Tax-Title-License, and the increased insurance rate of a new car that you have to provide full coverage on plus possibly full coverage.

It just is not a smart move. If the Altima is too big, look at a 99'ish Nissan Certified Sentra. Great gas milage, and just as reliable as a Civic. Leasing is not a good idea if you need to be as budget minded as you have to be.

 

[Thegonagle]

Actually, the pre-2002 is not a big car, but it has a big 2.4 L 150-155 HP engine. It's quick (0-60 in under 8, IIRC), a definite rice boy killer, and it handles pretty well. I recommend the 2000 over the 99. They made a ton of little changes and refinements for 2000 that made it a nicer, quieter, better car. The GXE version is well equipped and was the volume seller of the Altima line, so you should have no problem finding one. If you do take another look at 2000 Altima GXEs, be sure to look for the alloy wheels, because those also have a better stereo (CD + Cassette + tweeters, as opposed to CD only), an OEM strut tower brace, and I think a few other little things, as an option package.

 

[coolred]

Forgive me if i say something incorrect, it's not that i don't beleive you, it's just that I am trying to get my facts straight and right now they are differant then yours vi. So you are saying you get equity from a 9,000.00 dollar car because when it's done and paid for you still have a car worth 4,000.00 to do whatever with. But you had to pay 9,000.00 for it. So you paid 9,000.00 and in the end got a car worth 4,000.00. Where as with leasing I will in essence only be paying for the 5,000.00 worth of time i used the car. Sure I wouldn't have that extra 4,000.00 dollars to deal with at the end, but I also didn't have to pay for 9,000.00 dollars like you did. Like i said, don't get mad, I need to get this straight. Your saying that someone that pays 9,000.00 for a car for 4 years and then at the end of the 4 years has a car that is worth 4,000.00 that you can either keep or use as trade in or sell or whatever is better off then some who leases a 18,000.00 car for 3 years meaning say they have to pay for 5,000.00 worth of the car since at the end of the 3 years it's worth 13,000.00, but at the end of that 3 years or 4 years or whatever you like that person still has an extra 4,000.00 dollars that he didn't have to put into the car. Sorry i know that was a long sentance that prolly should have been split up. But your saying that paying 9,000.00 for a car and then having 4,000.00 dollars in equity in that car is better off then someone who leases a car in which they pay for 5,000.00 dollars worth of the cars use and yet still have 4,000.00 dollars in the bank at the end of the deal?

I know all that i just said is confusing, so let me try to simplify it again.

Okay you have 2 people, lets just say one is me the other is you. We both have 9,000.00 dollars to spend on a car. You spend all your money on a car and once you own it, it's worth 4,000.00 dollars. So you basically spent 5000.00 dollars at the end of the deal. Where as I lease a car during which i pay for use of the car which totals 5,000.00 dollars, then at the end of my lease i still have 4,000.00 dollars in the bank, so wouldn't they both be equal? Sure my numbers prolly aren't totally acurate, but I also didn't figure in that you may have to pay for repairs where as I wouldn't. So let me know what part of what i am saying is wrong.

I guess i didn't exactly mean the altima is too big, i would just prefer a 2 door coupe. I am just afraid to buy a used car, cause then I have to pay out even more money if it breaks down. if i could find a good deal on a car I would happliy buy rather then lease. But looking at the civics unless you find a real good deal, then buying used is stupid since they hold there resale value so well.

 

[vi edit]

The $9,000 to $4,000 drop is somewhat unrealistic, I just used it for example. It really depends up
1. how good of a deal you got up front
2. how well you maintain the car
3. how well the car maintains it's value.

A two or three year old car has already taken it's biggest depreciation hit. Yes, it's going to continue to drop in value, but not like the 33% drop that a brand new car takes in a year.

Here's what I was looking at -

In three years time, you'll have paid $8460 in downpayment and monthly payments alone on that leased car. That doesn't include TTL + higher insurance rates. It also doesn't include milage overages which CAN ADD UP FAST. At $.15 a mile, you'll pay $150 for every 1000 miles you go over. It also doesn't include any damage costs that you'll have to pay for if the dealer doesn't like the condition that you turned the car in with.

So in theory, you just paid a MINIMUM of $8460 for 36 months worth of rental.

In my scenario, you pay for 50 months @ $165 a month total of $8250 (counting trade in of $1000, and downpayemnt of $1500 on a $9000 vehicle, this price includes TTL). I'm already $200 ahead, and I'll have cheaper insurance, my TTL out of the way, don't have to worry about milage overages, and if I put a ding or dent in the car, I don't have to fix it if I don't want to saving major $$$$$.

In my scenario, I'm already ahead money wise, and EVEN IF I loose $4000 in value in my car, I'm STILL ahead of you by $4000 in equity. The $50 a month I save in payments (plus probably an easy $20 or $30 in insurance) I can bank away for repairs. On a nice Nissan or used Toyota, tranny work isn't going to be an issue, timing belts won't be a big problem yet, and just about everything else is solid as well.

You have to look at total cost of ownership.

Dollar for dollar, you can not beat a used vehicle so long as it is mechanically sound in the first place.

 

[coolred]

I am confused about what you just said. First of all how can you get $8250.00 for 165.00 a month for 50 months? The only way that is possible is with 0% interest, and good luck to you finding a loan like that. That is my first problem with what you said. If you can tell me how to get 8500.00 bucks for only 165.00 a month then i will just get a used civic. For that much i could get an 97 or a 98 civic, which would be great. So please tell me how you came up with those figures. Secondly how would you be paying 50.00 dollars less a month then me. You said your paying 165.00 right? Well when I put 3000.00 down i would only be paying 149.00 a month. I think there was something else but now i can't remember, so please answer that.

 

[vi edit]

Damn, I messed up, forgot to add the downpayment Sorry.

Ok. $9000 car. You have $1000 trade in on your car, and you kick in another $1000 out of your own pocket. Figure in $500 for TTL. Total amount financed is $7500. $7500 @ 8.24% interest for 50 months is a $177 payment. Put another $1000 down for a total of $6500 financed is $154 a month. $154 * 50 = $7700. Add in your original $3000 and your total payment is $10,700.

With the lease - $149 a month * 36 = $5364. Add in the other $3000 and you'll have paid out $8364. NOT counting TTL, which could add in another $500. Then, also factor in a higher insurance payment for an easy $20 a month, or $240 a year. $240 * 3 = $720. Add in another $500 for TTL. Once you figure in TTL and insurance premiums, you are looking at $9584. A little over a $1000 less than the finaced car. Factor in milage adjustments, plus any body work you'll have to and you could easily be at, or above the costs for the finaced car.

If you are worried about a warranty, for $600 you can always add on a factory bumper to bumper to cover the car for another 3 years or 30,000 miles.

And after all that, you still own the car, and the value that it still has.

 

[coolred]

Well one problem i see with that is that my 3000.00 dollar down payment is coming from trade in of another vehicle I own. This vehicle is not even worth 500.00 dollars. So i would need to take it to a dealership offering a 3000.00 dollar minimum trade in. I could be wrong, but i think that only applies to new cars. So therfore I would not be spening the extra 3000.00 for a down payment, so then your theory kinda doesn't apply. I thought I mentioned this earlier, but i should have been more clear

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: coolred
Well one problem i see with that is that my 3000.00 dollar down payment is coming from trade in of another vehicle I own. This vehicle is not even worth 500.00 dollars. So i would need to take it to a dealership offering a 3000.00 dollar minimum trade in. I could be wrong, but i think that only applies to new cars.

Nope, not even close. MSRP markup on a new civic is about $1300. The dealer WILL NOT give you that much trade in on a civic. Average markup on a used car is WAY more than that. A dealership only gives trade in value on peoples trade ins. Average trade in difference from retail difference is about $3500 or so. I knocked $4000 off the asking price of the used 2000 passat I bought a couple months ago. I also knocked about $1800 off the asking price of a '94 camry that I bought just last week.

There is far FAR more room for wheeling and dealing in the used car market. Go to any dealer on the last day of the month and offer them $500 over wholesale(trade in) and you'll be in like flynt. You might just save yourself $2500 or more depending on the car.

Another example - I was looking at a '97 Nissan Altima with 78,000 miles on it. Dealer was asking $7800 for it. I walked and told them I'd give them $6500 for it. The didn't bat an eye and asked when I wanted to complete the deal. Hell, I could have probably got the car for under $6000 if I really wanted to get down and dirty.

Bottom line is, used cars have way more bargaining room.

 

[vi edit]

One more question for you - what's your credit rating?

You need a nearly spotless credit rating to even get approved for a lease.

 

[coolred]

I understand they have more bargaining room, but does that mean they will also allow the use of the 3000.00 dollar minimum trade? I would have assumed that they would only allow that on the higher priced new cars. But I guess i could see what your saying, since they overprice the used cars by so much, giving you 3000.00 minimum trade would still make them money. Is that correct? If that is, then i will buy rather then lease. I have always wanted to buy as opposed to lease, but I need to be able to afford it. But if i can get that much for my trade in then I can prolly afford a late 90's civic or sentra or whatever.

 

[coolred]

I don't exactly know what my credit rating is. I don't really have any credit though. I have a few credit cards and school loans that i pay on, but not much else. I undertsand i probablly wouldn't qualify for a lease or even probablly a loan, in which case i will ask my father to cosign it.