What a the 330 billion taxcut could have bought...

sMiLeYz

Platinum Member
Feb 3, 2003
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CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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www.ShawCAD.com
1. read this

2. We already pay for healthcare for people - but lets take it into consideration. The Dem. President candidates are spewing plans of 80billion/year for gov't health insurance - seems to me that 80 X 10 years = 800billion and the tax cut is ~350billion over 10 years. 800<350? New math?:confused: ;)

3. 2002 spending on 'Elementary, secondary, and vocational education' = $25,879,000,000. 2003 spending on the same is $32,798,000,000. I fail to see how we aren't throwing piles of cash at education;) Don't mind that 2003 spending on this is double that of what was spent in 1998 ;)

4. for the "Rich"?
Tax cuts and you - CNN
41,000 income "gets" $1200 which is 3% of their income
63,000 income "gets" $1,100 which is <2% of their income
120,000 income "gets" $3,028 which is 2.5% of their income
170,00 income "gets" $3,148 which is <2% of their income
assuming 2 kids. (Source: AP/Deloitte & Touche)

Want to try again?

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Oh, and I almost forgot...I thought we were "borrowing from future generations" with this tax-cut:confused: but yet you people want the gov't to go and actually spend it?

:confused: ;)

CkG
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
Fiancial aid for the states, healthcare for people who cant afford it, paid for teachers and educators... instead of the rich.
Envy bug bite you?

The states that have mismanaged themselves into deep holes (i.e. Cali) don't deserve pandering. Healthcare is partly unaffordable to many because of government and now so many want to pay government more to repair the damage they've caused? That's just amazing to me. Finally throwing even more money at teachers and administrators won't help kids learn.
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
1
81
Health insurance is IMO a bad thing.

The doctors and hospitals wouldn't be charging an arm and a leg if the customer's paid the bulk of it themselves rather than having insurance pay. All the prices have a digit added based on the assumption that your insurance is going to be paying 90% of it. So you end up paying everything you would have payed (10% of 10x increased cost) PLUS paying for insurance.
 

KenGr

Senior member
Aug 22, 2002
725
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0
It's always interesting to speculate on what could have been. Based on past experience an extra 330 billion would have bought a bunch of new federal buildings in West Virginia courtesy of Senator Byrd, a bunch of questionable infrastructure projects in Alaska courtesy of Senator Stevens, etc. etc. etc.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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In the wild it is survival of the strongest. Why should the human seek to continue a line of weak humans? Let the sick die off and the strong multiply. We will evolve a race of super humans with out illness or disease and answer most of the Health Care concerns... not today but someday and in the meantime we faze out the system and eliminate tax on the wealthy so they can employ the grave digger and coffin maker for the economy is all that matters and this will surely help.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
1. read this

2. We already pay for healthcare for people - but lets take it into consideration. The Dem. President candidates are spewing plans of 80billion/year for gov't health insurance - seems to me that 80 X 10 years = 800billion and the tax cut is ~350billion over 10 years. 800<350? New math?:confused: ;)

3. 2002 spending on 'Elementary, secondary, and vocational education' = $25,879,000,000. 2003 spending on the same is $32,798,000,000. I fail to see how we aren't throwing piles of cash at education;) Don't mind that 2003 spending on this is double that of what was spent in 1998 ;)

4. for the "Rich"?
Tax cuts and you - CNN
41,000 income "gets" $1200 which is 3% of their income
63,000 income "gets" $1,100 which is <2% of their income
120,000 income "gets" $3,028 which is 2.5% of their income
170,00 income "gets" $3,148 which is <2% of their income
assuming 2 kids. (Source: AP/Deloitte & Touche)

Want to try again?

CkG
Perhaps a more suitable title would have been "What the $330 billion tax cut could have bought, but in all likelihood, probably wouldn't have..."

You'll have to forgive the Dems and their incessant use of their favorite ruse 'Republican tax cuts favor the rich' based on dollar amounts refunded when my five year-old nephew understands that the more you pay in the more you stand to get back from even a uniform across-the-board rate cut.

Its among the last remaining scare tactics which is still somewhat effective for them, so you bet their going to use it all they can to keep their dullard and downtrodden constituents mired in the resentful and bitter class warfare mentality which keeps them poor and reliant upon Democrats.

And education, Jesus don't get me started. We keep spending more by seeming orders of magnitude, scores keep falling. The problem is we need to spend more!
rolleye.gif


The problem has never been about money. Russian kids with little more than freaking chalk boards and an abacus outscore their American counterparts who have computers and biology labs and physics labs and chemistry labs. And the Russian kids have no freaking heat in their buildings.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
1. read this

2. We already pay for healthcare for people - but lets take it into consideration. The Dem. President candidates are spewing plans of 80billion/year for gov't health insurance - seems to me that 80 X 10 years = 800billion and the tax cut is ~350billion over 10 years. 800<350? New math?:confused: ;)

3. 2002 spending on 'Elementary, secondary, and vocational education' = $25,879,000,000. 2003 spending on the same is $32,798,000,000. I fail to see how we aren't throwing piles of cash at education;) Don't mind that 2003 spending on this is double that of what was spent in 1998 ;)

4. for the "Rich"?
Tax cuts and you - CNN
41,000 income "gets" $1200 which is 3% of their income
63,000 income "gets" $1,100 which is <2% of their income
120,000 income "gets" $3,028 which is 2.5% of their income
170,00 income "gets" $3,148 which is <2% of their income
assuming 2 kids. (Source: AP/Deloitte & Touche)

Want to try again?

CkG
Perhaps a more suitable title would have been "What the $330 billion tax cut could have bought, but in all likelihood, probably wouldn't have..."

You'll have to forgive the Dems and their incessant use of their favorite ruse 'Republican tax cuts favor the rich' based on dollar amounts refunded when my five year-old nephew understands that the more you pay in the more you stand to get back from even a uniform across-the-board rate cut.

Its among the last remaining scare tactics which is still somewhat effective for them, so you bet their going to use it all they can to keep their dullard and downtrodden constituents mired in the resentful and bitter class warfare mentality which keeps them poor and reliant upon Democrats.

And education, Jesus don't get me started. We keep spending more by seeming orders of magnitude, scores keep falling. The problem is we need to spend more!
rolleye.gif


The problem has never been about money. Russian kids with little more than freaking chalk boards and an abacus outscore their American counterparts who have computers and biology labs and physics labs and chemistry labs. And the Russian kids have no freaking heat in their buildings.

I agree with much of this. However is'nt some of what makes this country great is the opportunties afforded by collectivism? Like Federally guaranteed business loans 7a etc, great roads, federal pell grants for education etc etc etc? Basically commissioning the government to act in the common intrest is'nt bad IMO.
We just fight about how much.

However the schools my boys go to costs $2100 a year vs. public in this area of $8,000 per student and I bet you can't guess which turns out better students:)
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,407
8,595
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Originally posted by: Carbonyl

I agree with much of this. However is'nt some of what makes this country great is the opportunties afforded by collectivism? Like Federally guaranteed business loans 7a etc, great roads, federal pell grants for education etc etc etc? Basically commissioning the government to act in the common intrest is'nt bad IMO.
We just fight about how much.

However the schools my boys go to costs $2100 a year vs. public in this area of $8,000 per student and I bet you can't guess which turns out better students:)
prob is the gov't rarely spends money on general public interests projects (much of its just pork corruption) and when they do they manage to do so they spread the project around to 300 congressional districts and raise the cost of the project then bitch that it costs too much so then they cut down on how many they were going to buy and say that it costs even more *cough*F-22*cough*

as for private vs public schools, you do realize that the selection bias probably accounts for a very very large portion of the performance difference, right?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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81
El Fenix when it comes to renegotiation time private contractors such as LockheedMartin always put the screws to the account. It's SOP. You actually make a good anti-privatization agruement by bringing this up. I have only woked for federal contractors and the waste is worse than Fed employees.

Re-pvskool Wrong. It's parental involment and discipline. Any non-mentally retared child should be able to get straight A's with the watered down camp snoopy curriculum tought in todays schools. All successful busniesses and people have discipline which a public school can't give.

spelling
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126
However the schools my boys go to costs $2100 a year vs. public in this area of $8,000 per student and I bet you can't guess which turns out better students
Tell you a little story...

I went to public schools in a little farming burb - population nine hundred ninety-two (1990 Census). Our high school had a 1950's era chemistry lab (and a teacher to match), a computer lab containing 10 donated 286 Leading Edge computers with monochrome monitors, no biology lab, no physics lab, no computers in the classrooms outside of our computer lab, no air conditioning, not the newest of books or in the best of condition, etc. The 'greater area' encompassed two additional townships whose schools merged with this little farming burb and the combined population was approximately 8,500 (IIRC).

Before the school districts merged, I attended school in trailers K through 2nd grade. The trailers were added due to a population 'boom'. lol! Each trailer held an entire grade - approximately 20 students - K through 2nd. These were early 70s make mobile trailers with no air conditioning and only a space heater - hot as hell in the summer and drafty in the winter. We did ABCs and 123s with winter coats on during extremely cold mornings.

Our school system was at times so budget strained, PARENTS and TEACHERS had to chip-in to buy badly needed school supplies. There were years we had to pay upwards of $300 to play sports in order to put fuel in the busses and purchase needed sports equipment.

I was some what lazy, academically. I was happy being only 'average', like my friends. As it turns out, 'average' in my school was still well above the national average. I scored 25 on the ACT when the national average was 20. My standardized aptitude tests (Michigan Educational Assessment Program) were always above the state average.

A few years after graduating, I watched a half-hour news report about the state of public schools in Flint, Michigan, which is only about 25 minutes from where I grew up. A news crew went into one of Flint's 'impoverished and disadvantaged' public schools to show the 'terrible conditions' in which the downtrodden students were forced to learn.

KISS MY ASS AND CALL ME WHITEY! If that was a 'disadvantaged' school, then we attended school in third f-cking world conditions by comparison. 'Disadvantaged' compared to what? A $20,000/year elite private academy? F-CK ME!

There were some legitimate gripes. The fire control systems were in poor condition, the buildings were decaying, the boilers didn't work some times. What does that have to do with learning? NOT A THING!

Their biology labs were 10 years out-dated. BOO F-CKING HOO! We didn't have a biology lab. Their books were five years old. BOO HOO! I remember using books that had "Class of 1969" etched into the inside cover - in 1983! And those movies! We had the old projectors and film. The productions were all from the 1950s and 1960s. I think the school bought a VCR in like 1985.

But we were just a bunch of white kids, nobody gave a damned about us. In fact, we didn't know we were 'disadvantaged' and never had that 'stigma' hanging over our heads. We didn't have the professional 'uplifters' and 'crusaders' come in to our school to inform us how 'disadvantaged' we were compared with some other kids somewhere else, fostering if not deliberately encouraging resentment, bitterness, and class envy, because quite frankly, there was no money or 'prestige' in promoting the 'plight' of white kids. You know it and I know it.

And because we didn't have some social uplifter or crusader always at our elbow incessantly reminding us that we were 'disadvantaged', we weren't. Not in our minds, we weren't, which is precisely where this kind of stigma can have the greatest affect. Legions of young inner-city youths are sent - deliberately - into 'the world' believing they are 'owed' something because they were some how 'slighted' or 'cheated'. CRAP!

There were kids failing in our school, but it wasn't due to any short-comings of our school. There were also kids excelling academically in math, physics, chemistry, etc. What's the difference? New books? New desks? New ceiling tiles? A computer? The failing kids must not have had qualified teachers? Bullsh-t. The difference was THE HOME.

When all this federal education money can figure out how to make fathers support their children, or stop being alcoholics, or stop being abusive, or can convince PARENTS to prioritize education and give PARENTS the tools to promote an interest in learning at an early age, then you'll see a positive association between money spent and test scores.

As long as we have these failing communities with high rates of single parent households, teen pregnancy, alcohol and substance abuse, unemployment, no parental support, among other stability and support issues within the home and community as a whole, a new damned computer, or textbook, more teachers and smaller class sizes, isn't going to mean sh-t.

Teachers aren't surrogates for supportive parents and stable homes, they are merely compliments to them. There are exceptions, but then they are the exceptions.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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81
Woohoo great rant. Really.

As long as we have these failing communities with high rates of single parent households, teen pregnancy, alcohol and substance abuse, unemployment, no parental support, among other stability and support issues within the home and community as a whole, a new damned computer, or textbook, more teachers and smaller class sizes, isn't going to mean sh-t.

I blame all this on income inequality. If you look at these issues as well as crime and dropout rates you'll see a direct coorelation to income. Low income = high crime in general. Is correlation causation? No, the chicken could have come first. But I know when someone has something to loose like a house, career, reputation etc they are more likely to tow the line and be a productive member of society. You dislike Unions and I favor them because they seek to put low/no skilled in the middle class. You dislike higher taxation on those who have a generous disposable income and I think redistribution to everyone also helps to balance things. Ok go ahead with the commie comments, but just know I think in order to recieve governmnet welfare you should work 40 hrs a week for it, hell , we could stop all lowskilled manufacturing jobs fleeing this country with one step. And Bring back text books from the 50's. Hard as hell.
 

LeadMagnet

Platinum Member
Mar 26, 2003
2,348
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Most likely $320 billion would have gone to add 100,000 more bureaucrats , additional pork , and a kick butt party for the congress. $10 billion would go towards social programs.
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
Could have just given it to the homeless and welfare recipients so they can snort it all away and then 5 years later be ready for more.
 

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Woohoo great rant. Really.

As long as we have these failing communities with high rates of single parent households, teen pregnancy, alcohol and substance abuse, unemployment, no parental support, among other stability and support issues within the home and community as a whole, a new damned computer, or textbook, more teachers and smaller class sizes, isn't going to mean sh-t.

I blame all this on income inequality. If you look at these issues as well as crime and dropout rates you'll see a direct coorelation to income. Low income = high crime in general. Is correlation causation? No, the chicken could have come first. But I know when someone has something to loose like a house, career, reputation etc they are more likely to tow the line and be a productive member of society. You dislike Unions and I favor them because they seek to put low/no skilled in the middle class. You dislike higher taxation on those who have a generous disposable income and I think redistribution to everyone also helps to balance things. Ok go ahead with the commie comments, but just know I think in order to recieve governmnet welfare you should work 40 hrs a week for it, hell , we could stop all lowskilled manufacturing jobs fleeing this country with one step. And Bring back text books from the 50's. Hard as hell.

Redistribution? Disposable? my, my, you have no idea what the principals of this country was founded on. So you are wanting basically a welfare state, take from the rich, give to the poor. I wouldn't call you views commie views, just assinine.

KK

 

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Woohoo great rant. Really.

As long as we have these failing communities with high rates of single parent households, teen pregnancy, alcohol and substance abuse, unemployment, no parental support, among other stability and support issues within the home and community as a whole, a new damned computer, or textbook, more teachers and smaller class sizes, isn't going to mean sh-t.

I blame all this on income inequality. If you look at these issues as well as crime and dropout rates you'll see a direct coorelation to income. Low income = high crime in general. Is correlation causation? No, the chicken could have come first. But I know when someone has something to loose like a house, career, reputation etc they are more likely to tow the line and be a productive member of society. You dislike Unions and I favor them because they seek to put low/no skilled in the middle class. You dislike higher taxation on those who have a generous disposable income and I think redistribution to everyone also helps to balance things. Ok go ahead with the commie comments, but just know I think in order to recieve governmnet welfare you should work 40 hrs a week for it, hell , we could stop all lowskilled manufacturing jobs fleeing this country with one step. And Bring back text books from the 50's. Hard as hell.

double post, opps.

KK

 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: glugglug
Health insurance is IMO a bad thing.

The doctors and hospitals wouldn't be charging an arm and a leg if the customer's paid the bulk of it themselves rather than having insurance pay. All the prices have a digit added based on the assumption that your insurance is going to be paying 90% of it. So you end up paying everything you would have payed (10% of 10x increased cost) PLUS paying for insurance.


ahhh, finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. People need to wake up that this third party payee system is a failure. We need to go back to a competitive cash-based system.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: glugglug
Health insurance is IMO a bad thing.

The doctors and hospitals wouldn't be charging an arm and a leg if the customer's paid the bulk of it themselves rather than having insurance pay. All the prices have a digit added based on the assumption that your insurance is going to be paying 90% of it. So you end up paying everything you would have payed (10% of 10x increased cost) PLUS paying for insurance.


ahhh, finally someone who agrees with me on this issue. People need to wake up that this third party payee system is a failure. We need to go back to a competitive cash-based system.

I'd agree with that too.:) The "painful" change-over wouldn't be pretty though.

CkG
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: KK
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Woohoo great rant. Really.

As long as we have these failing communities with high rates of single parent households, teen pregnancy, alcohol and substance abuse, unemployment, no parental support, among other stability and support issues within the home and community as a whole, a new damned computer, or textbook, more teachers and smaller class sizes, isn't going to mean sh-t.

I blame all this on income inequality. If you look at these issues as well as crime and dropout rates you'll see a direct coorelation to income. Low income = high crime in general. Is correlation causation? No, the chicken could have come first. But I know when someone has something to loose like a house, career, reputation etc they are more likely to tow the line and be a productive member of society. You dislike Unions and I favor them because they seek to put low/no skilled in the middle class. You dislike higher taxation on those who have a generous disposable income and I think redistribution to everyone also helps to balance things. Ok go ahead with the commie comments, but just know I think in order to recieve governmnet welfare you should work 40 hrs a week for it, hell , we could stop all lowskilled manufacturing jobs fleeing this country with one step. And Bring back text books from the 50's. Hard as hell.

Redistribution? Disposable? my, my, you have no idea what the principals of this country was founded on. So you are wanting basically a welfare state, take from the rich, give to the poor. I wouldn't call you views commie views, just assinine.

KK

KK, Sorry to say we are paying for it one way or another.

-Prisons are exploding which cost a fortune to maintain.
-Quality of life for everyone around them suffers from having to look at the slums to being a victim of violent crime. ---
-Normal children must suffer a lowest common denomiator education system where high school diplomas are now given to people who are actually illiterate and profoundly ignorant. This also has the effect of rendering us a nation of smart labor importers. Democracy itself depends on educated and informed people making educated and informed decisions when they vote. Otherwise, you end up electing people like Bill Clinton and GWB.
-In sum we will turn into angola eventually with the elite in control of all wealth without some government or entity working for the collective.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
We need to go back to a competitive cash-based system.
Sadly, Ds will fight tooth-and-nail against this because they want to empower the government nanny-state. It's all about them and their Vision, nothing else is possible.

Equally sad, Rs don't seem inclined to do much either. At the very least they could eliminate things like red tape and over-regulation.