What a great speech! Tom DeLay at the Israeli Kenesset

[ThePresence]

Long Read Warning! But worth it.

 

[Siwy]

Not a bad speech, I'd agree with 90% of it but non the less it seems a little bit one sided. He criticizes Arafat and terrorism as he should, but he does not touch on Sharon's wrongdoings or even the discrimination in Israel. Israel is not that great of a democracy as he makes it out to be, although a definite improvement in the region. My 5 cents 🙂

 

[BarneyFife]

He's Israel's bitch. Bought and paid for.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

That Evangelical freak. When will the Israelis realize that the only reason Evangelical Protestants et al in this country support them is so that Israel is in the hands of the Jews when Armageddon comes around and Jews will have the option to either convert or be destroyed? It is probably the most "anti-Semetic" thing there can be, but no ones asking questions.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
He's Israel's bitch. Bought and paid for.

America is Israel's bitch, given away for free.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

I sat with former refuseniks, heroes who spoke truth to power and helped bring an evil empire to its knees.

WTF is he talking about? Arn't the refuseniks the guys who refuse to enlist in the Army and go into the OCCUPIED territories?

On the bus ride back home from the doctor, their joyful path met the profound cruelty of a homicide bomber's. The terrorist detonated his weapon, and this family and their baby were gone.

Guess whose been watching Fox News

She told me this story this week in a park, surrounded by the play of children directly affected by Palestinian terror. She called two of them over, and introduced me to her two grandchildren who were orphaned that day.

To hell with any Palestinian kids who might be orphaned, you know, since their not democratic.

We know our victory in the war on terror depends on Israel's survival.

Funny, I thought it depended on OUR survival.

These are the terms Providence has put before the United States, Israel, and the rest of the civilized world.

Someone should explain the concept of separation of Church and State to this fvck. But since only Christians and Jews live in the "civilized world", what would it matter?

Israel's liberation from Palestinian terror is an essential component of that victory.

What about Palestinian liberation from Israeli OCCUPATION? What can be more democratic than a good ol' occupation?

An immediate and total end to Palestinian terrorism is not a concession the civilized world asks of the Palestinian Authority to advance the peace process. It is a prerequisite to the Palestinian Authority's invitation to it.

Those monkeys want to be part ot the civilized world? May the Lord have mercy on our souls! What next? Palestinians living in their own state? You see, this is what happens when you let colored folks go to school meant only for decent folks. What next??!!

That through brute force, powerful men can erase the imprint of the Almighty etched into the souls of all His children

Testify! Praise the lord!

George W. Bush is a man of integrity and honesty.

Hahahahahaha. This was one of my favorites...

Their plight is real: they have been oppressed and abused by a pernicious enemy. But their enemy is not Israel, nor its people, nor its democratic government. Their enemy is Yasser Arafat.

Hahahahahaha! Yeah, you know, Yasser Arafat preventing them from earning a living, from seeing their families, from working on their land. Lets not forget the settlements hes financing and building with his own two hands.

Israel is not the problem; Israel is the solution!

Can this delusioned freak kiss any more ass?

This speech is not worth reading, hell I'll summarize it for you. NeoCon goes to Israel, pulls a lot of nice sounding tripe out of his ass, goes home and wins more votes in the Bible Belt. This guy is an embarrasment to my home state. Once again, I promise, Texans are not all bible toting, cow humping, Arab/Black/Muslim hating, ignorant jokers. Promise!

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
That Evangelical freak. When will the Israelis realize that the only reason Evangelical Protestants et al in this country support them is so that Israel is in the hands of the Jews when Armageddon comes around and Jews will have the option to either convert or be destroyed? It is probably the most "anti-Semetic" thing there can be, but no ones asking questions.

Well, since Jews don't belive that any of that will come to pass, it seems more foolish than Anti-Semetic.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

I sat with former refuseniks, heroes who spoke truth to power and helped bring an evil empire to its knees.

WTF is he talking about? Arn't the refuseniks the guys who refuse to enlist in the Army and go into the OCCUPIED territories?

[/quote]
He's talking about RUSSIAN refuseniks, from the former Soviet Union.

On the bus ride back home from the doctor, their joyful path met the profound cruelty of a homicide bomber's. The terrorist detonated his weapon, and this family and their baby were gone.

Guess whose been watching Fox News[/quote]
Actually, FOX probably gets it from him.

She told me this story this week in a park, surrounded by the play of children directly affected by Palestinian terror. She called two of them over, and introduced me to her two grandchildren who were orphaned that day.

To hell with any Palestinian kids who might be orphaned, you know, since their not democratic.[/quote]
No, not since their not democratic, but because the terrorists bring onto themselves and their people.

We know our victory in the war on terror depends on Israel's survival.

Funny, I thought it depended on OUR survival.[/quote]
Okay, I don't exactly know what he meant by that.

These are the terms Providence has put before the United States, Israel, and the rest of the civilized world.

Someone should explain the concept of separation of Church and State to this fvck. But since only Christians and Jews live in the "civilized world", what would it matter?[/quote]
Seperation of Church and State? Is he passing a law here or making a point?

Israel's liberation from Palestinian terror is an essential component of that victory.

What about Palestinian liberation from Israeli OCCUPATION? What can be more democratic than a good ol' occupation?[/quote]
If you actually knew something about the situation, I doubt you'd feel that way.

An immediate and total end to Palestinian terrorism is not a concession the civilized world asks of the Palestinian Authority to advance the peace process. It is a prerequisite to the Palestinian Authority's invitation to it.

Those monkeys want to be part ot the civilized world? May the Lord have mercy on our souls! What next? Palestinians living in their own state? You see, this is what happens when you let colored folks go to school meant only for decent folks. What next??!![/quote]

That through brute force, powerful men can erase the imprint of the Almighty etched into the souls of all His children

Testify! Praise the lord! [/quote]
Just because you dont believe in God, does not mean you should ridicule those who do. It makes you look bad.

George W. Bush is a man of integrity and honesty.

Hahahahahaha. This was one of my favorites...[/quote]
You're right. Clinton (and the party that respects him) is the man we should look to for honest and integrity.

Their plight is real: they have been oppressed and abused by a pernicious enemy. But their enemy is not Israel, nor its people, nor its democratic government. Their enemy is Yasser Arafat.

Hahahahahaha! Yeah, you know, Yasser Arafat preventing them from earning a living, from seeing their families, from working on their land. Lets not forget the settlements hes financing and building with his own two hands.[/quote]
No, he must have meant a different Arafat. He probably meant the one who has been one of the worst terrorists the world has ever seen. You know, Yasser, from the Palestinian "Authority".

Israel is not the problem; Israel is the solution!

Can this delusioned freak kiss any more ass?[/quote]
Now you're just being bitter.

This speech is not worth reading, hell I'll summarize it for you. NeoCon goes to Israel, pulls a lot of nice sounding tripe out of his ass, goes home and wins more votes in the Bible Belt. This guy is an embarrasment to my home state. Once again, I promise, Texans are not all bible toting, cow humping, Arab/Black/Muslim hating, ignorant jokers. Promise![/quote]
Typical leftwing gibberish. No, indeed not all Texans are how you described. After all, this is the home State of the Dixie Chicks.

 

[sMiLeYz]

That speech was inspirational *NOT*. It sounds like his typical rhetoric. All Palestinians fault for supporting Yasser Arafat... blah blah blah.

The problem with people like Tom DeLay and his Evangelical pals is that they have a very one sided view of the world. He believes that everyone should share his point of view or get the fvck out of the way. Not to mention the guy is ruthless, power hungry, and fkn crazy.

He recently tried to push Texas republicans to resdistrict areas to grab more seats for Republicans, when the democrats rebelled against his wishes... he tries to get a federal agency Homeland security to force them into line. He has no business in Texas politics, he should stick to Washington.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
That speech was inspirational *NOT*. It sounds like his typical rhetoric. All Palestinians fault for supporting Yasser Arafat... blah blah blah.

The problem with people like Tom DeLay and his Evangelical pals is that they have a very one sided view of the world. He believes that everyone should share his point of view or get the fvck out of the way. Not to mention the guy is ruthless, power hungry, and fkn crazy.

He recently tried to push Texas republicans to resdistrict areas to grab more seats for Republicans, when the democrats rebelled against his wishes... he tries to get a federal agency Homeland security to force them into line. He has no business in Texas politics, he should stick to Washington.

I wasn't talking about the man, I was talking about his speech, what was said.

 

[PandaBear]

Let me tell you what these Israel lover think in their mind. They think that Israel should live and all the Palestinians should die because they are not welcomed in an all Jewish state. These Israel supporter think they are doing Jesus a favor by doing what the bible told them to: support christian and fight off all other religions, esp Islam.

Let me tell you what Jesus will in a situation like this. Back then when the jews want him to rise up and fight off Caesar, he teach them to love the enemy, to forgive others, to be peaceful. Even when he die on the cross he did not take revenge onto his own hand, he told lord to forgive them because they don't know what they are doing. He show us with his own life the value of love and forgiveness.

I don't agree with Tom DeLay, but I forgive him because Jesus show me what I should do. I hate the government policy of Israel and its decision maker, but I forgive them and pray for them to learn the importance of making peace, and sharing the land with others, because thats what Jesus show us 2000 years ago.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
That Evangelical freak. When will the Israelis realize that the only reason Evangelical Protestants et al in this country support them is so that Israel is in the hands of the Jews when Armageddon comes around and Jews will have the option to either convert or be destroyed? It is probably the most "anti-Semetic" thing there can be, but no ones asking questions.

Well, since Jews don't belive that any of that will come to pass, it seems more foolish than Anti-Semetic.

I don't know, convert and embrace the Son Of God or be destroyed sounds kind of anti-Semetic to me, kind of along the lines of what Evans claim as being the sole philosophy of Islam.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

I sat with former refuseniks, heroes who spoke truth to power and helped bring an evil empire to its knees.

WTF is he talking about? Arn't the refuseniks the guys who refuse to enlist in the Army and go into the OCCUPIED territories?

He's talking about RUSSIAN refuseniks, from the former Soviet Union.
Thanks for clarifying, it was not clear in the article

On the bus ride back home from the doctor, their joyful path met the profound cruelty of a homicide bomber's. The terrorist detonated his weapon, and this family and their baby were gone.

Guess whose been watching Fox News[/quote]
Actually, FOX probably gets it from him.
From one right wing whacko to another, makes no difference to me

She told me this story this week in a park, surrounded by the play of children directly affected by Palestinian terror. She called two of them over, and introduced me to her two grandchildren who were orphaned that day.

To hell with any Palestinian kids who might be orphaned, you know, since their not democratic.[/quote]
No, not since their not democratic, but because the terrorists bring onto themselves and their people.
I was being sarcastic. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the occupation has anything to do with it? I know you will now say that terrorists want the undonditional destruction of Israel, but did it ever occur to you that people who have no hope and who are sick of being humiliated might want to lash out as well?

We know our victory in the war on terror depends on Israel's survival.

Funny, I thought it depended on OUR survival.[/quote]
Okay, I don't exactly know what he meant by that.
Nor do I, maybe he should become an Israeli, but wait, even if he marries one he can't thanks to that new law. Or maybe that only relates to Palestinians

These are the terms Providence has put before the United States, Israel, and the rest of the civilized world.

Someone should explain the concept of separation of Church and State to this fvck. But since only Christians and Jews live in the "civilized world", what would it matter?[/quote]
Seperation of Church and State? Is he passing a law here or making a point?
He is a member of Congress and in such, is representing the American people who are not all Christian and whose country is based on the notion of separation of Church and State.

Israel's liberation from Palestinian terror is an essential component of that victory.

What about Palestinian liberation from Israeli OCCUPATION? What can be more democratic than a good ol' occupation?[/quote]
If you actually knew something about the situation, I doubt you'd feel that way.
So are you saying that there is no occupation? Are you saying that Israel is not stealing more and more Palestinian land on a daily basis? Is not inflicting collective punishment and is not building a huge wall around the West Bank, making it into a huge gulag of sorts, separating families from their land and each other? Are you saying that even Israeli Arabs are not treated like third class citizens? Maybe you need to learn more about the situation

An immediate and total end to Palestinian terrorism is not a concession the civilized world asks of the Palestinian Authority to advance the peace process. It is a prerequisite to the Palestinian Authority's invitation to it.

Those monkeys want to be part ot the civilized world? May the Lord have mercy on our souls! What next? Palestinians living in their own state? You see, this is what happens when you let colored folks go to school meant only for decent folks. What next??!![/quote]

So you find nothing wrong with Delay calling Palestinians uncivilized?

That through brute force, powerful men can erase the imprint of the Almighty etched into the souls of all His children

Testify! Praise the lord! [/quote]
Just because you dont believe in God, does not mean you should ridicule those who do. It makes you look bad.
You do not know my religious convictions so please refrain from insinuating that you do. Like I said, a person in Delay's position cannot go preaching religious sermoms while representing the American people

George W. Bush is a man of integrity and honesty.

Hahahahahaha. This was one of my favorites...[/quote]
You're right. Clinton (and the party that respects him) is the man we should look to for honest and integrity.

I never mentioned Clinton. In typical Cons. fashion you had to bring him in to counteract critisizm of W

Their plight is real: they have been oppressed and abused by a pernicious enemy. But their enemy is not Israel, nor its people, nor its democratic government. Their enemy is Yasser Arafat.

Hahahahahaha! Yeah, you know, Yasser Arafat preventing them from earning a living, from seeing their families, from working on their land. Lets not forget the settlements hes financing and building with his own two hands.[/quote]
No, he must have meant a different Arafat. He probably meant the one who has been one of the worst terrorists the world has ever seen. You know, Yasser, from the Palestinian "Authority".
So basically you're saying this whole thing is only the Palestinians fault and that the Israelis are just innocent victims? Arafat is a terrorist but so is Sharon, you are just incapable of critisizing Israel or counteracing Bush's assertion that Sharon, the father of the settlement program, is a "man of peace"

Israel is not the problem; Israel is the solution!

Can this delusioned freak kiss any more ass?[/quote]
Now you're just being bitter.
No, I'm just pointing out what this whole speech was about: kissing ass

This speech is not worth reading, hell I'll summarize it for you. NeoCon goes to Israel, pulls a lot of nice sounding tripe out of his ass, goes home and wins more votes in the Bible Belt. This guy is an embarrasment to my home state. Once again, I promise, Texans are not all bible toting, cow humping, Arab/Black/Muslim hating, ignorant jokers. Promise![/quote]
Typical leftwing gibberish. No, indeed not all Texans are how you described. After all, this is the home State of the Dixie Chicks.[/quote]
You're right, thank God they stood up and showed the world that not all Texans are bible toting, arm chair patriots who consider it immoral to question the actions of their Commander and Chief, a man beyond reproach

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: Siwy
Not a bad speech, I'd agree with 90% of it but non the less it seems a little bit one sided. He criticizes Arafat and terrorism as he should, but he does not touch on Sharon's wrongdoings or even the discrimination in Israel. Israel is not that great of a democracy as he makes it out to be, although a definite improvement in the region. My 5 cents 🙂

i agree with 90% of what you said 🙂

sharon has fooled his critics - not that it was too hard to do. who would have expected this 'war criminal' to be even
planning the displacement of the settlers. historically this is not unprecedented. begin (likud also) surrendered the
sinai to egypt and destroyed the isreali settlements built by jewish zealots within that conquered area.

begin was also regarded as a loose cannon who had occupied an ideological position far more instransigent than sharon
has over his political career. yet he came through.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

I'll just have to wait and see what "painful concessions" Sharon will actually make, talk is cheap.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Thanks for clarifying, it was not clear in the article

Sure, no problem.

From one right wing whacko to another, makes no difference to me

Okay. Whatever.

I was being sarcastic. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the occupation has anything to do with it? I know you will now say that terrorists want the undonditional destruction of Israel, but did it ever occur to you that people who have no hope and who are sick of being humiliated might want to lash out as well?

Sure it does. I can understand their frustration and anger. Seriously. However, the only reason they are treated that way is because Israel must treat them like that to ensure the safety of Israel civillians. The terrorists destroy the lives, not only of Israelis, but of their fellow Palestinians too. And yes, they are committed to the destruction of Israel.

Nor do I, maybe he should become an Israeli, but wait, even if he marries one he can't thanks to that new law. Or maybe that only relates to Palestinians

Like it or not, Israel must do what it can to protect itself. Any country would.

He is a member of Congress and in such, is representing the American people who are not all Christian and whose country is based on the notion of separation of Church and State.

Seperation of Church and State is something that applies to passing laws. That's it. You may not like what he says, but the Church and State issue has nothing to do with it.

So are you saying that there is no occupation? Are you saying that Israel is not stealing more and more Palestinian land on a daily basis? Is not inflicting collective punishment and is not building a huge wall around the West Bank, making it into a huge gulag of sorts, separating families from their land and each other? Are you saying that even Israeli Arabs are not treated like third class citizens? Maybe you need to learn more about the situation

Israel is not stealing Palestinian land. What is Palestinian land? Who's was it before it was declared "Palestinian"? British? Maybe Turkish? They COULD have had their own land and country but they chose war instead. Guess what, they lost. I'm sure it sucks, but you can't just declare land your own because you're pissed off. It is not building a wall around the west bank, it is building a wall around their own (Israel's) border. Those trying to enter Israel legally will still be able to. All it punishes are those trying to enter Israel illegally. Sir, I doubt I need to learn more about the situation. I lived and served there, unlike those who just sit back in their armchairs assuming they understand feelings and emotions a half a world away

So you find nothing wrong with Delay calling Palestinians uncivilized?

He wasn't calling Palestinians uncivillized. He was calling the Palestinian Authority uncivllized. I have no problem with that.

You do not know my religious convictions so please refrain from insinuating that you do. Like I said, a person in Delay's position cannot go preaching religious sermoms while representing the American people

You are correct, I don't know your beliefs. I assumed it from the way you mocked his mention of (gasp) God.

I never mentioned Clinton. In typical Cons. fashion you had to bring him in to counteract critisizm of W

I was referring the party which respects him. Such a party obviously has no sense of honest or values.

So basically you're saying this whole thing is only the Palestinians fault and that the Israelis are just innocent victims? Arafat is a terrorist but so is Sharon, you are just incapable of critisizing Israel or counteracing Bush's assertion that Sharon, the father of the settlement program, is a "man of peace"

Yes, it is pretty much the Palestinians fault. Not all of them, but the terrorists among them. They ruined it for everyone and continue to do so. I am not a Sharon fan at all, but he does not try to kill innocent people, while that's precisely Arafat's goal.

No, I'm just pointing out what this whole speech was about: kissing ass

Ummm, I dont think so. The US has no need to kiss anyone's ass. I think he actually believes what he's saying. What a concept!

You're right, thank God they stood up and showed the world that not all Texans are bible toting, arm chair patriots who consider it immoral to question the actions of their Commander and Chief, a man beyond reproach

They are a bunch of bastard traitors to the country that made them as succesfull as they are. I'll never listen to them again. And these are the people that you feel so proud to show off as a shining example of a Texas citizen. My condolences.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
I'll just have to wait and see what "painful concessions" Sharon will actually make, talk is cheap.

Oh come on, you will never give the man any credit, regardless of what he will do.

 

[Double Trouble]

People like Delay are the reason the middle east will never be peaceful, and neither will Israel. His one-sided view of everything simply flies in the face of all that is logical. He refuses to see that there's two sides to every coin, and that simply blaiming everyting on one side or one person (Arafat) is completely useless.... What a disgrace he is.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
I'll just have to wait and see what "painful concessions" Sharon will actually make, talk is cheap.

Oh come on, you will never give the man any credit, regardless of what he will do.

Basically all you've said is that Arafat is a terrorist, the Israelis have unconditional right to all of Israel and that there is no "Palestinian land". What are your views on settlements? Do you think that they are ok and legal? And yes, the fence extends deep into Palestinian land to cercumvent settlements, so the Israelis ARE stealing land.
Didn't you serve in the Israeli army? Border guards is it? Ever demolish any houses or shoot a kid throwing stones at you? I can see why you're so blatantly biased an unobjective. Nice AMERICAN flag by the way.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
I'll just have to wait and see what "painful concessions" Sharon will actually make, talk is cheap.

Oh come on, you will never give the man any credit, regardless of what he will do.

Basically all you've said is that Arafat is a terrorist, the Israelis have unconditional right to all of Israel and that there is no "Palestinian land". What are your views on settlements? Do you think that they are ok and legal? And yes, the fence extends deep into Palestinian land to cercumvent settlements, so the Israelis ARE stealing land.
Didn't you serve in the Israeli army? Border guards is it? Ever demolish any houses or shoot a kid throwing stones at you? I can see why you're so blatantly biased an unobjective. Nice AMERICAN flag by the way.

My gosh, you really just swallow everything the media throws your way. Kinda sad, really. You have these deep held convictions based on media lies and skewed preceptions. And yes, it is a nice flag. It's my flag. I'm a proud US citizen.

 

[Macro2]

RE:"America is Israel's bitch, given away for free."

 

[Macro2]

RE:"America is Israel's bitch, given away for free."

 

[Kaiynne]

The Presence:

There most certainly is such a thing as Palestinian land. That land was Never British, though it was for a few decades the responsibility of the British (Mandated by the league of Nations). Sadly Britian failed miserably in that role, there are numerous reasons, one of the worst being the obvious racism shown towards the Palestinian people by the British.

So the Palestinians have a very valid claim to the land, they do not have a claim to the land IMHO that is present day Israel. This land was taken from the palestinian people though to create an Israeli State, which almost everyone can understand was a neccesity. However, what was not a neccesity was the way that the hand over was done by the league of nations, it was sloppy and had it been handled better we would probably not be in as bad a situation as we are today.

The settlements and the occupation are absolutely against the charter of the U.N. The settlements are a form of terrorism, they were designed to break up the occupied territories in strategic locations. Sharon stated this at the time and has done so many times since. So Sharon is a terrorist, by his own admission.

What he is also responsible for is the invasion of Lebanon. This was not an act of terrorism, it was worse than that it was a blatant act of aggression. It resulted in tens of thousands of dead civilians. Now i don't try to weigh atrocities against one another so lets just leave the actual numbers out of the final tally. Yes Arafat is a terrorist, but he has never commited an act of open agression towards another state, only Sharon can claim that one. So in the eys of international law Sharon is the bigger criminal. Yet who is the one who has had numerous meetings with bush?

By the way there is also the little matter of the Syrian Golan heights, that land belongs to Syria, yet there is no sign of Israel relinquishing it.

Something else you need to realize and almost everyone in America for that matter, is that not all Israelis want Palestine wiped off the map, wait no you allready did realize that, so tell me why can't you realize that not all Palestinians want Israel wiped off the map?

I expect that you will have numerous counter-points to what i have written and i will be happy to address them, but i don't think that we will be able to come to an agreement very easily, simply because, if you can manage to justify
support of US which you seem to, then it will be trivial to be able to support Israel, because Israel is only the second worst Terrorist State, the Grand Champion is the US.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
I'll just have to wait and see what "painful concessions" Sharon will actually make, talk is cheap.

Oh come on, you will never give the man any credit, regardless of what he will do.

Basically all you've said is that Arafat is a terrorist, the Israelis have unconditional right to all of Israel and that there is no "Palestinian land". What are your views on settlements? Do you think that they are ok and legal? And yes, the fence extends deep into Palestinian land to cercumvent settlements, so the Israelis ARE stealing land.
Didn't you serve in the Israeli army? Border guards is it? Ever demolish any houses or shoot a kid throwing stones at you? I can see why you're so blatantly biased an unobjective. Nice AMERICAN flag by the way.

My gosh, you really just swallow everything the media throws your way. Kinda sad, really. You have these deep held convictions based on media lies and skewed preceptions. And yes, it is a nice flag. It's my flag. I'm a proud US citizen.

Actually, if I was just deluded by the media I would be very pro-Israeli. Have you served in the US army or are you just proud enough to serve in the Israeli one? And while you're at it, why don't you respond to the issues I've put forth instead of blindly regurgitating the official AIPAC "how to dodge issues and claim there is no occupation and Israel is the only victim" handbook?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Kaiynne
The Presence:

There most certainly is such a thing as Palestinian land. That land was Never British, though it was for a few decades the responsibility of the British (Mandated by the league of Nations). Sadly Britian failed miserably in that role, there are numerous reasons, one of the worst being the obvious racism shown towards the Palestinian people by the British.

Actually, the British showed terrible hatered and racisim towards the Jewish people there at the time (I know that from personal accounts of family members of mine who were there at the time, not from reading any books - which I did too). Before the British took over, the land belonged to the Ottoman empire. So perhaps Turkey has a claim to the land? The Palestinians might have had a claim to the land, but they chose war instead, and lost.

So the Palestinians have a very valid claim to the land, they do not have a claim to the land IMHO that is present day Israel.

I still don't see hwere that claim stems from.

This land was taken from the palestinian people though to create an Israeli State, which almost everyone can understand was a neccesity.

No it wasn't, it was taken from the British. The British felt that the situation was too hot for them and ran away. The Palestinians and other Arab countries promptly attacked. They lost. Where does the claim to the land come from?

However, what was not a neccesity was the way that the hand over was done by the league of nations, it was sloppy and had it been handled better we would probably not be in as bad a situation as we are today.

I don't think it matters how it was handled, because they probably would've attacked Israel anyway.

The settlements and the occupation are absolutely against the charter of the U.N. The settlements are a form of terrorism, they were designed to break up the occupied territories in strategic locations. Sharon stated this at the time and has done so many times since. So Sharon is a terrorist, by his own admission.

I am not a Sharon supporter. I am not really a settelment supporter either. I see the need for them, but I realize that Israel has to make concessions for peace. I doubt there will ever be peace (I don't see how you can make peace with an enemy who will not reast untill they destroy you), but Israel has to make a legitimate attempt.

What he is also responsible for is the invasion of Lebanon. This was not an act of terrorism, it was worse than that it was a blatant act of aggression. It resulted in tens of thousands of dead civilians. Now i don't try to weigh atrocities against one another so lets just leave the actual numbers out of the final tally. Yes Arafat is a terrorist, but he has never commited an act of open agression towards another state, only Sharon can claim that one. So in the eys of international law Sharon is the bigger criminal. Yet who is the one who has had numerous meetings with bush?

It was not an act of terrorism, it was an act of war from one country to another. That is not what terrorism is. Arafat has never done anything like that, because it's not his way. He'd rather sit back and bomb buses full of school childeren. Again, I am not a Sharon supporter.

By the way there is also the little matter of the Syrian Golan heights, that land belongs to Syria, yet there is no sign of Israel relinquishing it.

They lost it in a war.

Something else you need to realize and almost everyone in America for that matter, is that not all Israelis want Palestine wiped off the map, wait no you allready did realize that, so tell me why can't you realize that not all Palestinians want Israel wiped off the map?

I readily admit that. I spent time in Palestinian towns, and I know that. However, the terrorists ruin it for their own people. Israel has to protect it's citizens.

I expect that you will have numerous counter-points to what i have written and i will be happy to address them, but i don't think that we will be able to come to an agreement very easily, simply because, if you can manage to justify
support of US which you seem to, then it will be trivial to be able to support Israel, because Israel is only the second worst Terrorist State, the Grand Champion is the US.

In that case, I agree that we will never come to an agreement.