Westboro idiots have their tires slashed

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preCRT

Platinum Member
Apr 12, 2000
2,340
123
106
"the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police".

1. what kind of person would help those hateful jackasses?
2. bet the cops didn't try very hard either, see #1.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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"the protesters were unable to find anyone in town who would repair their vehicle, according to police".

1. what kind of person would help those hateful jackasses?
2. bet the cops didn't try very hard either, see #1.
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Sadly that gets borderline dangerous for commercial establishments. In the same way a restaurant can't discriminate against customers based on race,the Westboro church looks for such discrimination as a means to self-finance themselves by lawsuit. So could the Westboro church sue a open for business repair business that declined them service?
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,673
482
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Sadly that gets borderline dangerous for commercial establishments. In the same way a restaurant can't discriminate against customers based on race,the Westboro church looks for such discrimination as a means to self-finance themselves by lawsuit. So could the Westboro church sue a open for business repair business that declined them service?

No. Businesses still have the right to refuse service in most cases.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
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it's just good old fashioned schadenfreude.

who doesn't enjoy it when bad things happen to bad people?

We shouldn't be supportive of people breaking the law, no matter what. And he still never answered what the ACLU has to do with anything.

Interesting, the wiki explanation for schadenfreude says this:

A New York Times article in 2002 cited a number of scientific studies of schadenfreude, which it defined as "delighting in others' misfortune." Many such studies are based on social comparison theory, the idea that when people around us have bad luck, we look better to ourselves. Other researchers have found that people with low self-esteem are more likely to feel schadenfreude than are people who have high self-esteem

I guess this explains why so many P&N posters like schadenfreude.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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Answer the question...why does it matter?

So do you support breaking the law? yes or no?

Sure. The law is a 95% solution. These people fall in that special 5% where adherence to the law isn't the best solution for our society.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
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Sure. The law is a 95% solution. These people fall in that special 5% where adherence to the law isn't the best solution for our society.

Ah, the old, "the law only applies when I agree with it" excuse. Well played.

Never saw that in US law before, got a link?
 

2Xtreme21

Diamond Member
Jun 13, 2004
7,044
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Seriously fuck the Westboro Baptist Church, but should we really advocate illegality against them? Everything they've done is protected by the first amendment. No reason to throw out the Constitution because we don't agree with them, right?

Just ignore them like the scum they are.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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Seriously fuck the Westboro Baptist Church, but should we really advocate illegality against them? Everything they've done is protected by the first amendment. No reason to throw out the Constitution because we don't agree with them, right?

Just ignore them like the scum they are.

Yes, they are protected by the first amendment, and I would never advocate the police, or the government violating their rights.

The constitution protects people from government infringements. If some angry war veteran who happens to be an explosives experts takes out the whole gaggle of hateful retards, that's not a government action. That's just karma.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
32
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Sadly that gets borderline dangerous for commercial establishments. In the same way a restaurant can't discriminate against customers based on race,the Westboro church looks for such discrimination as a means to self-finance themselves by lawsuit. So could the Westboro church sue a open for business repair business that declined them service?
No. Businesses still have the right to refuse service in most cases.

Yup. There's a difference between pre-judging and post-judging. Prejudice isn't connected to reality, and it's really hard smoothing out social problems resulting from a baseline of delusion. Post-judgment is connected to reality, which tends to keep things addressable.
Post-judgments are left pretty much wide open.
 

Tristicus

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2008
8,107
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www.wallpapereuphoria.com
I don't understand how their message falls under the protection of free speech?

During their protests they hold signs up with pictures of the deceased soldiers saying "lovely human." I can't go outside and start calling strangers faggots without being arrested for disorderly conduct so why is this not true for these bozos? Their protest is being done solely to cause pain and suffering for those mourning the deceased so I'm not clear why it should be protected speech.

As far as I know protesting is legal.
Hate speech isn't.
So these faggots deserve what they get.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
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I don't understand how their message falls under the protection of free speech?

During their protests they hold signs up with pictures of the deceased soldiers saying "lovely human." I can't go outside and start calling strangers faggots without being arrested for disorderly conduct so why is this not true for these bozos? Their protest is being done solely to cause pain and suffering for those mourning the deceased so I'm not clear why it should be protected speech.



As far as I know protesting is legal.
Hate speech isn't.
So these faggots deserve what they get.

No such thing as hate speech laws in the US, and no matter how offensive these people are it is better that way.

Hate speech laws are a slippery slope that can also be used to stifle criticism and debate on controversial topics. Imagine if the Religious Right Christians and American Flag protectionists had hate speech laws to go after those that were critical of their religion or the same hate speech laws to go after flag burners, just look at the article below for examples from other countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/us/12hate.html

Unlike Others, U.S. Defends Freedom to Offend in Speech

By ADAM LIPTAK
VANCOUVER, British Columbia — A couple of years ago, a Canadian magazine published an article arguing that the rise of Islam threatened Western values. The article’s tone was mocking and biting, but it said nothing that conservative magazines and blogs in the United States do not say every day without fear of legal reprisal.
Things are different here. The magazine is on trial.


Two members of the Canadian Islamic Congress say the magazine, Maclean’s, Canada’s leading newsweekly, violated a provincial hate speech law by stirring up hatred against Muslims. They say the magazine should be forbidden from saying similar things, forced to publish a rebuttal and made to compensate Muslims for injuring their “dignity, feelings and self-respect.”
The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, which held five days of hearings on those questions here last week, will soon rule on whether Maclean’s violated the law. As spectators lined up for the afternoon session last week, an argument broke out.
“It’s hate speech!” yelled one man.
“It’s free speech!” yelled another.

In the United States, that debate has been settled. Under the First Amendment, newspapers and magazines can say what they like about minorities and religions — even false, provocative or hateful things — without legal consequence.

The Maclean’s article, “The Future Belongs to Islam,” was an excerpt from a book by Mark Steyn called “America Alone” (Regnery, 2006). The title was fitting: The United States, in its treatment of hate speech, as in so many other areas of the law, takes a distinctive legal path.
“In much of the developed world, one uses racial epithets at one’s legal peril, one displays Nazi regalia and the other trappings of ethnic hatred at significant legal risk, and one urges discrimination against religious minorities under threat of fine or imprisonment,” Frederick Schauer, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, wrote in a recent essay called “The Exceptional First Amendment.”
“But in the United States,” Professor Schauer continued, “all such speech remains constitutionally protected.”

Canada, England, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech. Israel and France forbid the sale of Nazi items like swastikas and flags. It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and France.
Earlier this month, the actress Brigitte Bardot, an animal rights activist, was fined $23,000 in France for provoking racial hatred by criticizing a Muslim ceremony involving the slaughter of sheep.

By contrast, American courts would not stop a planned march by the American Nazi Party in Skokie, Ill., in 1977, though a march would have been deeply distressing to the many Holocaust survivors there.
Six years later, a state court judge in New York dismissed a libel case brought by several Puerto Rican groups against a business executive who had called food stamps “basically a Puerto Rican program.” The First Amendment, Justice Eve M. Preminger wrote, does not allow even false statements about racial or ethnic groups to be suppressed or punished just because they may increase “the general level of prejudice.”
Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech.

“It is not clear to me that the Europeans are mistaken,” Jeremy Waldron, a legal philosopher, wrote in The New York Review of Books last month, “when they say that a liberal democracy must take affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack.”
Professor Waldron was reviewing “Freedom for the Thought That We Hate: A Biography of the First Amendment” by Anthony Lewis, the former New York Times columnist. Mr. Lewis has been critical of efforts to use the law to limit hate speech.
But even Mr. Lewis, a liberal, wrote in his book that he was inclined to relax some of the most stringent First Amendment protections “in an age when words have inspired acts of mass murder and terrorism.” In particular, he called for a re-examination of the Supreme Court’s insistence that there is only one justification for making incitement a criminal offense: the likelihood of imminent violence.


The imminence requirement sets a high hurdle. Mere advocacy of violence, terrorism or the overthrow of the government is not enough; the words must be meant to and be likely to produce violence or lawlessness right away. A fiery speech urging an angry mob to immediately assault a black man in its midst probably qualifies as incitement under the First Amendment. A magazine article — or any publication — intended to stir up racial hatred surely does not.
Mr. Lewis wrote that there was “genuinely dangerous” speech that did not meet the imminence requirement.
“I think we should be able to punish speech that urges terrorist violence to an audience, some of whose members are ready to act on the urging,” Mr. Lewis wrote. “That is imminence enough.”
Harvey A. Silverglate, a civil liberties lawyer in Cambridge, Mass., disagreed. “When times are tough,” he said, “there seems to be a tendency to say there is too much freedom.”
“Free speech matters because it works,” Mr. Silverglate continued. Scrutiny and debate are more effective ways of combating hate speech than censorship, he said, and all the more so in the post-Sept. 11 era.
“The world didn’t suffer because too many people read ‘Mein Kampf,’ ” Mr. Silverglate said. “Sending Hitler on a speaking tour of the United States would have been quite a good idea.”
Mr. Silverglate seemed to be echoing the words of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., whose 1919 dissent in Abrams v. United States eventually formed the basis for modern First Amendment law.
“The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market,” Justice Holmes wrote.
“I think that we should be eternally vigilant,” he added, “against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death.”
The First Amendment is not, of course, absolute. The Supreme Court has said that the government may ban fighting words or threats. Punishments may be enhanced for violent crimes prompted by racial hatred. And private institutions, including universities and employers, are not subject to the First Amendment, which restricts only government activities.
But merely saying hateful things about minorities, even with the intent to cause their members distress and to generate contempt and loathing, is protected by the First Amendment.
In 1969, for instance, the Supreme Court unanimously overturned the conviction of a leader of a Ku Klux Klan group under an Ohio statute that banned the advocacy of terrorism. The Klan leader, Clarence Brandenburg, had urged his followers at a rally to “send the Jews back to Israel,” to “bury” blacks, though he did not call them that, and to consider “revengeance” against politicians and judges who were unsympathetic to whites.
Only Klan members and journalists were present. Because Mr. Brandenburg’s words fell short of calling for immediate violence in a setting where such violence was likely, the Supreme Court ruled that he could not be prosecuted for incitement.
In his opening statement in the Canadian magazine case, a lawyer representing the Muslim plaintiffs aggrieved by the Maclean’s article pleaded with a three-member panel of the tribunal to declare that the article subjected his clients to “hatred and ridicule” and to force the magazine to publish a response.
“You are the only thing between racist, hateful, contemptuous Islamophobic and irresponsible journalism, and law-abiding Canadian citizens,” the lawyer, Faisal Joseph, told the tribunal.
In response, the lawyer for Maclean’s, Roger D. McConchie, all but called the proceeding a sham.
“Innocent intent is not a defense,” Mr. McConchie said in a bitter criticism of the British Columbia law on hate speech. “Nor is truth. Nor is fair comment on true facts. Publication in the public interest and for the public benefit is not a defense. Opinion expressed in good faith is not a defense. Responsible journalism is not a defense.”
Jason Gratl, a lawyer for the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of Journalists, which have intervened in the case in support of the magazine, was measured in his criticism of the law.
“Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech,” Mr. Gratl said in a telephone interview. “We don’t subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat.”
Many foreign courts have respectfully considered the American approach — and then rejected it.
A 1990 decision from the Canadian Supreme Court, for instance, upheld the criminal conviction of James Keegstra for “unlawfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group by communicating anti-Semitic statements.” Mr. Keegstra, a teacher, had told his students that Jews were “money loving,” “power hungry” and “treacherous.”
Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Brian Dickson said there was an issue “crucial to the disposition of this appeal: the relationship between Canadian and American approaches to the constitutional protection of free expression, most notably in the realm of hate propaganda.”
Chief Justice Dickson said “there is much to be learned from First Amendment jurisprudence.” But he concluded that “the international commitment to eradicate hate propaganda and, most importantly, the special role given equality and multiculturalism in the Canadian Constitution necessitate a departure from the view, reasonably prevalent in America at present, that the suppression of hate propaganda is incompatible with the guarantee of free expression.”
The United States’ distinctive approach to free speech, legal scholars say, has many causes. It is partly rooted in an individualistic view of the world. Fear of allowing the government to decide what speech is acceptable plays a role. So does history.


“It would be really hard to criticize Israel, Austria, Germany and South Africa, given their histories,” for laws banning hate speech, Professor Schauer said in an interview.
In Canada, however, laws banning hate speech seem to stem from a desire to promote societal harmony. While the Ontario Human Rights Commission dismissed a complaint against Maclean’s, it still condemned the article.
“In Canada, the right to freedom of expression is not absolute, nor should it be,” the commission’s statement said. “By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to ‘the West,’ this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others.”
A separate federal complaint against Maclean’s is pending.
Mr. Steyn, the author of the article, said the Canadian proceedings had illustrated some important distinctions. “The problem with so-called hate speech laws is that they’re not about facts,” he said in a telephone interview. “They’re about feelings.”
“What we’re learning here is really the bedrock difference between the United States and the countries that are in a broad sense its legal cousins,” Mr. Steyn added. “Western governments are becoming increasingly comfortable with the regulation of opinion.

The First Amendment really does distinguish the U.S., not just from Canada but from the rest of the Western world.”
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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Their speech is protected, and needs to be. That being said I'd find it hard not to resort to violence if one of my family were killed in Iraq/Afghanistan and they showed up to protest. I wouldn't be right, but they are illiciting that kind of response.

They really are the most distasteful and disgusting people and I feel sorry for the kids they are twisting into their hateful image.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
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Yes, they are protected by the first amendment, and I would never advocate the police, or the government violating their rights.

The constitution protects people from government infringements. If some angry war veteran who happens to be an explosives experts takes out the whole gaggle of hateful retards, that's not a government action. That's just karma.

That would not be karma, that would be murder. You a sick person advocating something like that.

Do you support lynch mobs for anyone that you think are "hateful retards"? Or maybe you could start tarring and feathering people that don't meet your standards.

This is clear cut...they are allowed to do it, despite how disgusting it is. Advocating criminal acts is just wrong (and pretty sick with your example)
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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That would not be karma, that would be murder. You a sick person advocating something like that.

Do you support lynch mobs for anyone that you think are "hateful retards"? Or maybe you could start tarring and feathering people that don't meet your standards.

This is clear cut...they are allowed to do it, despite how disgusting it is. Advocating criminal acts is just wrong (and pretty sick with your example)

How hard do you think the authorities would work to find the Westboro Baptist Church Killer? The nation would applaud him. Vigilantes can be very popular.

I'm not at all afraid to say that bad people need to die so that the good people on this planet don't have to deal with them. Sick? I don't think so. Bad people are bad, m'kay?
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
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How hard do you think the authorities would work to find the Westboro Baptist Church Killer? The nation would applaud him. Vigilantes can be very popular.

I'm not at all afraid to say that bad people need to die so that the good people on this planet don't have to deal with them. Sick? I don't think so. Bad people are bad, m'kay?

:thumbsup:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,869
6,783
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How hard do you think the authorities would work to find the Westboro Baptist Church Killer? The nation would applaud him. Vigilantes can be very popular.

I'm not at all afraid to say that bad people need to die so that the good people on this planet don't have to deal with them. Sick? I don't think so. Bad people are bad, m'kay?

My name is Inigo Montoya.........
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
If it was God punishing the soldiers for us allowing homosexuals in this country, then perhaps it was God punishing the Westboro Baptists for being assholes. God did it. It's the only logical solution.
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
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The people responsible are sacks of shit. They should be found and publicly humiliated.
I'm talking about the people responsible for replacing the tires btw. The idiots in the van should of been left at the roadside.

That would be the local WalMart, thus, you are correct.
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
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I still don't understand their fundamental argument. The United States military is one of the only standing institutions that can legally discriminate against gays and yet they still attack the military? Their logic is as flawed as their intelligence.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
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I still don't understand their fundamental argument. The United States military is one of the only standing institutions that can legally discriminate against gays and yet they still attack the military? Their logic is as flawed as their intelligence.
Your error is in thinking the Phelps Family actually has an "argument" or uses "logic". You vastly overestimate their level of mental function.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
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nobodyknows said:
I myself would never condone doing this, however in this case I would loan them my knife if they needed it.
My sentiments exactly

Both of you are apparently vocabulary-challenged. "Condone" means pardon, forgive, overlook, give tacit approval to. Clearly both of you DO "condone doing this", because loaning a knife is tacit approval for the act of slashing tires.

No, what you both MEANT to say is that publicly you'll pretend to support free speech but privately you really don't believe in free speech, and will secretly work to undermine it.