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Wesley Clark sounds off...

kage69

Lifer
You tell'em Wes!



To be honest, he didn't inspire me much back during the last election primaries (not that I could vote in them) but...


"This administration has taken us on a path to nowhere ? replete with hyped intelligence, macho slogans and an incredible failure to see the obvious,"

and

"Let's face it: We're not going to win the war on terror unless we start making more friends and fewer enemies in the world, and we're not going to be able to protect the American people without a new strategy."



Bravo, always nice to see guys who used to be higher management say what needs to be said. :thumbsup:


 
You know what I like about that, he isn't just complaining, he's pointing out some obvious problems with Republican anti-terrorism strategy. That second quote especially is something Republicans should take note of, we can win the war on terrorism by killing all our potential enemies, and we can't win it alone. Bush took what was a historic level of international support after 9/11 and pissed it away. So instead of fighting the war on terrorism alongside our longterm allies, we're going it alone. That really seems worth the "Freedom Fries" jokes, doesn't it? And it's not just our allies in Europe, we need more allies in the Middle East as well...especially because they are the people who could turn into enemies pretty quickly. French people aren't going to start killing our troops with IEDs when they don't like us, but people in the Middle East will. And I don't mean we need more repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia on our side, we need to get the average person to view us differently.

Anyways, my point is that while complaining is good, new ideas are even better...and I'm glad every time I hear a Democrat with them.
 
French people aren't going to start killing our troops with IEDs when they don't like us, but people in the Middle East will. And I don't mean we need more repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia on our side, we need to get the average person to view us differently.

:thumbsup: :laugh: That's what this world needs! More Pakistans! Eureka! 😉

Starting to wish Moore hadn't endorsed Clark, it probably cost him a lot.
 
Originally posted by: kage69
French people aren't going to start killing our troops with IEDs when they don't like us, but people in the Middle East will. And I don't mean we need more repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia on our side, we need to get the average person to view us differently.

:thumbsup: :laugh: That's what this world needs! More Pakistans! Eureka! 😉

Starting to wish Moore hadn't endorsed Clark, it probably cost him a lot.

Indeed. I don't hate Michael Moore, but I sort of wish he'd keep his comments to himself. He seems like a fairly smart guy, so I wonder why he doesn't realize that his presence hurts the left a lot more than he helps it.
 
We must understand Wesly Clark is retired general and somewhat a self promoter. He is likley testing the waters for the 08 democratic nomination. So he piles on the Bush bashing bandwagon-------saying in so many words that Bush was right to invade Iraq but was just an idiot on implemenation. The same message Kerry tried in 04 and that went over like a lead balloon.

But as we examine the Bush rethoric------now and at this late date---its now apparent that Bush lied---now explain to me why any could believe that Saddam had WMD---but every time Inspectors went in clever Saddam moved the WMD out the backgate when the inspectors knocked on the front gate. Not just once but time after time.-------just how dumb is someone that buys that line----ask Hillary, Lieberman, Edwards, and the rest. Where was Wes then other than showing sour grapes that he wasn't chosen to lead the Iraq invasion.

So when I look for a list of candidates for the dems in 08, I am looking for somewhat smart enough to be on record that Bush was lying.------and that list is painfully small------and Weslie is missing in action.
 
He seems like a fairly smart guy, so I wonder why he doesn't realize that his presence hurts the left a lot more than he helps it.

You know, The Nader Effect has a catchy jingle to it... 😉


Where was Wes then other than showing sour grapes that he wasn't chosen to lead the Iraq invasion.


Are you infering this, or have you come across anything to indicate this former general is really just an immature brat? I'm not horribly well-read on this guy, so the chances are good that you've seen something I haven't. That said this kinda smacks of an often used smear that's in fashion these days, like what happened with the other Clarke. But, I guess an important distinction would be that one of them is trying to enter politics. Agreed, he's going through the paces based on his strengths, he labled himself a dem, now he has to act like it. 😉
Seriously though, I can sneer at his identification with the Democratic party, or sit around all day and ponder how he fit into the 'landscape' back in the day, but none of that voids the spot-on remarks he made about executive competence and national security. I think he knows full well Bush lied, anyone with half a brain does, his omission of that is likely intentional I believe.
At least Clark saw action, unlike so many others now hoping to wield our new unitary executive power. 😉
 
Another retired General, Tony Zinni, the former Commander of U.S. Central Command, joine the chorus of Bush critics, today, on Meet The Press. Transcript won't be up until tomorrow, but here's Tim Russert's intro:
Then, Gen. Tony Zinni (Ret.), the former Commander of U.S. Central Command, has written a new book: "The Battle for Peace: A Frontline Vision of America's Power and Purpose." He calls the war in Iraq "ill-conceived" with "no end in sight" and outlines his strategy for "repairing America's international relations and Washington's response to domestic and foreign crises." "Meet the Press" has the exclusive first interview.
I watched it, and among other things, he refers back to then Army Chief of Staff, Eric Shinseki's warnings to Ronald Dumbsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz in 2003 that they would need several hundred thousand troops to do the job.

From USA Today, 2/25/2003:
Army chief: Force to occupy Iraq massive

WASHINGTON (AP) ? The Army's top general said Tuesday a military occupying force for a postwar Iraq could total several hundred thousand soldiers.

Iraq is "a piece of geography that's fairly significant," Gen. Eric K. Shinseki said at a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he said any postwar occupying force would have to be big enough to maintain safety in a country with "ethnic tensions that could lead to other problems."

In response to questioning by Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the committee, Shinseki said he couldn't give specific numbers of the size of an occupation force but would rely on the recommendations of commanders in the region.

"How about a range?" said Levin.

"I would say that what's been mobilized to this point, something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers," the general said. "Assistance from friends and allies would be helpful."
From Time, Jun. 26, 2003
For obvious domestic political reasons, the Bush Administration going into the war had downplayed the scale and duration of a post-war occupation mission. When then-Army Chief of Staff General Eric Shinseki told legislators that such a mission would require several hundred thousand U.S. troops, his assessment had been immediately dismissed by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz as "wildly off the mark." Wolfowitz explained that "I am reasonably certain that (the Iraqi people) will greet us as liberators, and that will help us to keep requirements down." Six weeks ago, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld was still suggesting the U.S. force in Iraq could be reduced to 30,000 by the end of the year. But the prevailing assessment in Washington appears to be shifting to the idea of a figure closer to Shinseki's.
Of course, the Bush administration didn't want to hear that from anyone who actually knew something so they did what any good exec would do -- They fired him. :roll:

In his memoirs, A World Transformed (1998), written with Brent Scowcroft, on pp. 489 - 490, George H.W. Bush wrote:
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.
If only his idiot son could read! 🙁
 
To kage69,

Wish I could better document it but I have head much about Wes not being a team player, being somewhat of a self promoter,
and worse yet, I have also head he was the guy in the army that released all that army equipment to the ATF when they first raided the branch dividians------and we all now know the drug conenction that was required to release this was trumped up at best. So much for Wes doing his homework.

To Harvey,

Yes I saw Zinni on meet the depressed-------have to admot he was impressive, he put things well, but his ending phrase while sucient and to the point, sounded all to pat for something that was supposed to sound spontanious. And again, where was Zinni when Bush was cranking up the pre-war propaganda blitz?----missing in action also. But when Zinni flat out says he had seen no pre-war intel that Saddam was taking active WMD steps---its 150% in variance to what Bush was saying at the time.

So I still in the same place----looking for someone--anyone-----on record that the emperor wore no clothes at the time before Bush lied this country into war.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To Harvey,

Yes I saw Zinni on meet the depressed-------have to admot he was impressive, he put things well, but his ending phrase while sucient and to the point, sounded all to pat for something that was supposed to sound spontanious. And again, where was Zinni when Bush was cranking up the pre-war propaganda blitz?----missing in action also. But when Zinni flat out says he had seen no pre-war intel that Saddam was taking active WMD steps---its 150% in variance to what Bush was saying at the time.

So I still in the same place----looking for someone--anyone-----on record that the emperor wore no clothes at the time before Bush lied this country into war.
Actually, Zinni was fairly outspoken that it was a total waste of time to attack Iraq. He stated, correctly, that Saddam was in a very small box where he couldn't even send planes/troops to either his northern or southern borders and he had been exceedingly weakened by the UN-backed embargo.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
So I still in the same place----looking for someone--anyone-----on record that the emperor wore no clothes at the time before Bush lied this country into war.
Read my post. Army Chief of Staff, General Eric Shinseki did warn the Bushwhackos about the number of troops they'd need and why. They ignored him and canned him.

They also ignored all warnings about the possiblity of an attack like 9/11, despite explicit warnings from people like Richard Clarke, former terrorisim advisor to Presidents Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton (and Bushwhacko, himself), and from former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
Ex-Bush aide: Iraq war planning began after 9/11

This despite doubt that Saddam was responsible, he says


By Corbett B. Daly
Thursday, May 6, 2004 Posted: 11:53 AM EDT (1553 GMT)

(CBS MarketWatch) -- A second former Bush administration official is set to accuse top presidential aides, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, of planning retaliatory strikes on Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, despite briefings from intelligence officials explaining that Iraq likely wasn't responsible.

The accusation from Richard Clarke, a counterterrorism official at the White House until February 2003, will come first in an interview on CBS News' "60 Minutes" set to be broadcast Sunday, the network said.

Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill made similar accusations on "60 Minutes" in January.

Although O'Neill said the Bush administration began planning an Iraqi invasion just after taking office, Clarke said Bush's top aides immediately sought to use the terrorist attacks to levy a war against Iraq even though it appeared that al Qaeda, not Saddam, was responsible.

"They were talking about Iraq on 9/11. They were talking about it on 9/12," Clarke said in the CBS interview that was conducted as part of the promotion for his book.

"Against All Enemies: Inside the White House's War on Terror -- What Really Happened" is scheduled for release Monday by Simon & Schuster's Free Press. Simon & Schuster is owned by CBS parent Viacom.

Clarke and O'Neill both say Bush was determined to oust the Iraqi leader and used the terrorist attacks as an excuse to remove him from power.

O'Neill, who was fired from his job as Treasury secretary, said in a book about his time in Washington that Bush was fixated on Iraq from the first days of his administration.

Clarke, who headed a cyber-security office at the White House until the office was transferred to the newly created Homeland Security Department in February 2003, told CBS that Rumsfeld suggested retaliating against Iraq immediately after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

"Rumsfeld was saying we needed to bomb Iraq ... We all said, 'but no, no, al-Qaeda is in Afghanistan,'" Clarke said in the interview. "And Rumsfeld said, 'There aren't any good targets in Afghanistan, and there are lots of good targets in Iraq.' I said, 'Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with [the September 11 attacks].'"

After O'Neill's book was published, Rumsfeld said the idea that Bush "came into office with a predisposition to invade Iraq, I think, is a total misunderstanding of the situation."

Bush administration officials have noted that U.S. policy dating from the Clinton administration was to seek "regime change" in Iraq, though it focused on funding and training Iraqi opposition groups rather than military force.

It was evident before September 11, 2001, that Iraq was a concern for the Bush administration.

In July 2001, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice told CNN that Saddam "is on the radar screen for the administration," and senior officials met at the White House two days later to discuss Iraq.

During the same time, Iraq began dispersing aircraft and air-defense capabilities in preparation for more aggressive U.S. airstrikes to enforce the "no-fly" zones over northern and southern Iraq.

A senior administration official told CNN that early Bush administration discussions regarding Iraq reviewed existing policies and plans.

Officials were particularly concerned with enforcement of the "no-fly" zones, where Iraqi air defense forces had been taking potshots at U.S. and British warplanes since late 1998. Iraq considered the areas, set up to protect anti-Saddam elements in northern and southern Iraq, as violations of its sovereignty.

Clarke is scheduled to testify Tuesday before a federal panel reviewing the attacks.
Strange that both of them were fired for their objections. Their MO was simply to ignore or get rid of anyone who stepped up to counter their moves to take the country to their war of lies. :|

Then, of course, there's the explicit warning I quoted in my last post from Bushwhacko's dear ol' dad. Junior would probably fire him from that job if he could. :roll:
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Yes I saw Zinni on meet the depressed-------have to admot he was impressive, he put things well, but his ending phrase while sucient and to the point, sounded all to pat for something that was supposed to sound spontanious. And again, where was Zinni when Bush was cranking up the pre-war propaganda blitz?----missing in action also. But when Zinni flat out says he had seen no pre-war intel that Saddam was taking active WMD steps---its 150% in variance to what Bush was saying at the time.

So I still in the same place----looking for someone--anyone-----on record that the emperor wore no clothes at the time before Bush lied this country into war.

Retired general assails U.S. policy on Iraq
Warnings ignored, says retired Marine
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20040416-9999-7m16zinni.html
For years Zinni said he cautioned U.S. officials that an Iraq without Saddam Hussein would likely be more dangerous to U.S. interests than one with him because of the ethnic and religious clashes that would be unleashed.

...

"I've been called a traitor and a turncoat for mentioning these things," said Zinni, 60. The problems in Iraq are being caused, he said, by poor planning and shortsightedness, such as disbanding the Iraqi army and being unable to provide security.

Zinni said the United States must now rely on the U.N. to pull its "chestnuts out of the fire in Iraq."

"We're betting on the U.N., who we blew off and ridiculed during the run-up to the war," Zinni said. "Now we're back with hat in hand. It would be funny if not for the lives lost."

I even posted that up here two years ago:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1292368&enterthread=y&arctab=y
 
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