We're screwed. Court rules against net neutrality.

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Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Heh, and the same government that freaking invented the internet...

Good to see so much support for our military spending.

That being said, local governments grant these companies monopolies AFAIK, was the NN bill not Federal?

Not implying that I am against NN, quite the contrary.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
LOL You are my new hero, wise one.

Question: If the FCC obtained the right to regulate the Internet and its providers to require content neutrality, would it not also have the ability to regulate content?

Exactly.

The problem is that the "progressive" (who hates how the FCC regulates TV/Radio) actually believes that eventually government wont fall into the same trap like it always does.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I love how people qualify alternatives with frivolous reasons why they do "not work" or are "too expensive".

Are you trolling, or are you really that dumb? With dial-up, you're limited to a small fraction of what's on the internet. It's like stranding someone on an atoll in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, handing them a unicycle, and telling them that they're free to travel all over the world.

And satellite? I have satellite. I pay something like $90 a month. I'm very limited as to what I can do online, else I exceed my bandwidth and my connection is effectively turned off. They advertise that it's rolled back to dial-up speeds, but I've been there. There's no priority, and "sorry, we can't diagnose why you cannot open a simple text page online, because this is peak hours." "When is it not peak hours?" "The only hours that tech support isn't available. Bwuahahaha!"
Satellite = facebook, email, forums, and maybe a few youtube videos a day. Most content requiring broadband would wipe my connection out in a couple of days.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
This is outrageous. Cable companies have government sanctioned monopolies on these things. To get rid of the monopolies, we need to lower the barrier of entry, which means lower regulation. Get rid of regulation, flood the country with low cost cable providers, and watch comcast cry.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
What part of "if you do not like a product do not buy it" do people not understand?

Comcast has an obligation to ensure that their network works for the majority of their users, users who DO NOT USE P2P file sharing.

The part where its practically a government sanctioned monopoly. If you want to lay wire, you need to deal with pesky government regulations and rules. That stuff costs money. Plus, the governments will sometimes do exclusive deals for a cut of the revenue. Less government, more freedom! Get rid of the exclusive deals and costly regulation. Free the internet from government slavery!
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
What part of "if you do not like a product do not buy it" do people not understand?

Comcast has an obligation to ensure that their network works for the majority of their users, users who DO NOT USE P2P file sharing.

The same thing could have been said about "online web-based video" when it was in its infancy.

Now try and find someone who hasn't used YouTube at least once.

Pro business 100% of the time = FAIL.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
LOL You are my new hero, wise one.

Question: If the FCC obtained the right to regulate the Internet and its providers to require content neutrality, would it not also have the ability to regulate content?

The FCC would simply say "you cannot do this". When proof came out that ISP's were indeed doing that, they would be required to stop it. Similar to what happened with the P2P issue. How is this not obvious?
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
They can't have it both ways. If they want to have monopoly control over an area, they should be regulated. If they compete in a free market, then the market can control the features.

Broadband de-regulation would have the same effect as phone de-regulation back in the 90's. Prices would shoot through the floor and features would increase.

There needs to be some sort of technology for cable plants to allow them to share their "last mile" connections with other providers. That is critical, competition being able to use the same pipe. The government gave these companies BILLIONS in the 90's (above and beyond our monthly payments) to build out our infrastructure for the future and they squandered it.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
Exactly.

The problem is that the "progressive" (who hates how the FCC regulates TV/Radio) actually believes that eventually government wont fall into the same trap like it always does.

Hmm.. They are successfully regulating phone lines. How did that happen?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Free Market strikes again.

The same free market where companies are granted monopolies by the government?

Do you fruitcakes have any idea what the words you use even mean or do you just randomly choose them from the Democrat Talking Point of the Day memo?
 

jersiq

Senior member
May 18, 2005
887
1
0
Not an option.

Don't know about the WiMAX network, but 3G Internet connections are typically allotted only 5GB of bandwidth each month.

How is that not an option. You get to the internet at faster than dial-up speeds. Simply because people are unable to live under a quota like most of the world does, does not make it an option.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
The FCC is so much of a joke they might as well rename it to CLA (Communications Lobbyist of America) . They have never passed any law that telecom did not later get repealed or changed the way that telecom wanted it. The rest of us can't compete with lobbyist paying for $500 dinners and $50K campaign contributions.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Question: If the FCC obtained the right to regulate the Internet and its providers to require content neutrality, would it not also have the ability to regulate content?


They could just get rid of local monopolies and then net neutrality wouldn't even be a topic. If 20 companies own the last mile to my home and one wants to change terms I just switch to another I like better. The way it is now the carriers own everything up to your modem and if you don't like their service then do without.

The solution has been around for years now but lobbyist keep it from happening.
The line connecting our homes needs to be made a utility, managed by state and local utility laws where the only role would be to maintain the line. Those lines would then be leased to anyone wanting to use them so people could choose between 10 other companies. That is why other countries are cheaper not because they are smaller like many people say. The only role government would have is making sure the maintenance was performed and that their was no favoritism giving one provider better rates than another. The government would not be providing content, filtering or monitoring anything but how much the local city charged for the lines up keep.

Want fiber to your home, then your local city could ask the people their if they are willing to pay for an increase to provide it. Net neutrality is moot because now if one provider decides to block traffic for video I can switch to another. No need for it.
 
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Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
They could just get rid of local monopolies and then net neutrality wouldn't even be a topic. If 20 companies own the last mile to my home and one wants to change terms I just switch to another I like better. The way it is now the carriers own everything up to your modem and if you don't like their service then do without.

The solution has been around for years now but lobbyist keep it from happening.
The line connecting our homes needs to be made a utility, managed by state and local utility laws where the only role would be to maintain the line. Those lines would then be leased to anyone wanting to use them so people could choose between 10 other companies. That is why other countries are cheaper not because they are smaller like many people say. The only role government would have is making sure the maintenance was performed and that their was no favoritism giving one provider better rates than another. The government would not be providing content, filtering or monitoring anything but how much the local city charged for the lines up keep.

Want fiber to your home, then your local city could ask the people their if they are willing to pay for an increase to provide it. Net neutrality dies because now if one provider decides to block traffic for video I can switch to another. No need for it.

Ya,and you'd have taxpayers paying to maintain services they don't need. Don't need broadband? Well the taxpayer will need to pay for it ANYWAYS!
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Ya,and you'd have taxpayers paying to maintain services they don't need. Don't need broadband? Well the taxpayer will need to pay for it ANYWAYS!

Wrong.
It would not be a taxpayer service. It would be done under utility laws where only the revenue from the service is used to pay for the maintenance. Look up project green light. They wired a town, the city provides the service and it never used a single cent of taxpayer money. What it brings in is what pays for it.

I think you are confused with giving everyone free internet and freeing up local lines. This isn't giving everyone government sponsored access. It is only making sure the local lines remain open to competition. The only way you get internet under the plan is to pay for it. You would have two charges, one for the local loop and the other for the service provider.

If the people living there wanted faster connections they would have to decide if paying more for the local loop each month would be worth it. Only the users are effected. Don't want internet, you get no bill and can carry on as usual.
 
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her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
How is that not an option. You get to the internet at faster than dial-up speeds. Simply because people are unable to live under a quota like most of the world does, does not make it an option.
What percentage of people in the US do you think uses less than 5BG of bandwidth a month? Its probably the same percentage that uses >250GB a month. The only reason the low bandwidth cap is even tolerated right now is because 3G connections are typically used as a secondary Internet connection when people are away from home/work.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
They could just get rid of local monopolies and then net neutrality wouldn't even be a topic. If 20 companies own the last mile to my home and one wants to change terms I just switch to another I like better. The way it is now the carriers own everything up to your modem and if you don't like their service then do without.

The solution has been around for years now but lobbyist keep it from happening.
The line connecting our homes needs to be made a utility, managed by state and local utility laws where the only role would be to maintain the line. Those lines would then be leased to anyone wanting to use them so people could choose between 10 other companies. That is why other countries are cheaper not because they are smaller like many people say. The only role government would have is making sure the maintenance was performed and that their was no favoritism giving one provider better rates than another. The government would not be providing content, filtering or monitoring anything but how much the local city charged for the lines up keep.

Want fiber to your home, then your local city could ask the people their if they are willing to pay for an increase to provide it. Net neutrality is moot because now if one provider decides to block traffic for video I can switch to another. No need for it.
Isn't this what Google Fiber is trying to accomplish among other things... Google owns the fiber which it then leases to ISPs which would compete for customers based on service.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Isn't this what Google Fiber is trying to accomplish among other things... Google owns the fiber which it then leases to ISPs which would compete for customers based on service.

Free market in action.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/technology/07net.html?ref=technology





I hope this only means that the fcc can't do this under current law and they could if the law is changed.
Otherwise, we are all fucked.

To regulate is the antithesis of net neutrality. There has to be a better way to approach this very complicated issue....


Media justice organizers at the Center for Media Justice (CMJ) and MAG-Net have recently produced a brilliant campaign plan ("The Campaign for universal broadband") to win three policies crucial for just and democratic communication: network neutrality, universal broadband and universal service fund reform. Considering the renewed struggle required to win these goals, and to protect them afterwards, two questions seem particularly important. First, to win media access rights, social justice movements need media access. So, how do we get the kind of access that can allow us to succeed? Second, as net neutrality and universal broadband are not ends in themselves, but rather the means to enable a just and democratic media system, who should produce that system? Open access to a media system controlled by the status quo will not provide the necessary means for disadvantaged communities and social justice movements to change power relations.
To win and protect the three central policies of the MAG-Net plan, media justice movements must have allies at radio and TV stations - the leading sources of news for most people, especially those without the Internet (Pew Center for People and the Press). Mainstream commercial channels will not provide that access as they are also agents defending corporate power and driving social justice movements to the margins. So, what about public media? The problem is that too often public broadcasting outlets have boards populated by elite and corporate representatives, who historically have used their power to filter out the very perspectives we seek to extend. However, a movement of active publics could restructure governance at public media and demand democratically elected boards. This change could enable representatives from diverse communities to make decisions about programming and provide new access for marginalized and oppressed social groups to shape and produce content, self-organize and build just social relationships.
So, like network neutrality and universal broadband, should social justice movements also consider control over public media to be a racial and economic justice issue? In the effort to constitute a just and a ubiquitous public media system, should a high priority be to demand direct, democratic community governance of publicly funded outlets, especially local NPR and PBS affiliates? Though flawed, badly funded and commercialized, CPB outlets are the material of an existing system that could - if under community control - be a new means for self-organization by diverse publics.
What do you think the priority is or should be for synergizing isolated community print, online, radio, PEG and other media producers into a new public system - creating a publicly controlled, radically reorganized, public media system that could enable social justice movements to change social conditions?
There are excellent reasons to conceive of network neutrality as a social justice issue. The Center for Media Justice made particularly important contributions to this understanding with their document "Network Neutrality, Universal Broadband, and Racial Justice," as did CMJ's Malkia Cyril and co-authors Joseph Torres and Chris Rabb with their statement, "The Internet Must Not Become a Segregated Community." Both works powerfully clarify that the Internet system envisioned by corporate and state officials would create first- and second-class Netizens. As the net neutrality struggle continues to demonstrate, diverse publics must communicate and act on their own behalf to establish and preserve a policy for digital technology based on equal access.
However, marginalized communities must not hope that a neutral Internet will build a media system to meet their needs. It is time to give up any remaining illusions of technological determinism. There is no political orientation inherent in technology - not even a neutral digital network. Only the creative labor of our communities and our movements can produce the spaces we need to collaboratively create new understandings of ourselves and our purposes; to communicate, coordinate and act. Lacking creative action by our communities and movements, universal broadband would only enable widespread access to a system dominated by the same corporate and racist forces that dominate the current system. After all, war and injustice continue irrespective of Facebook, Twitter and Digg. Though perhaps it seems obvious, it is crucial to remember that it was primarily the culture of the producers - not the users - that shaped the Internet medium (Castells, The Internet Galaxy, 2003).
Historically marginalized communities now, at this crucial juncture, could wield power as producers to shape the Internet into a new media network to increase equity in media access and political participation. Movements for media justice could struggle to develop the Internet as a platform where marginalized communities can speak to themselves and to wider audiences.
As the CMJ's statements on network neutrality and universal broadband remind us, social justice movements cannot simply trust professionals employed by either corporations or the state to decide which social groups get broadband access or what digital content we can access once online. That same critical logic applies to control over public media and public news production. Unfortunately, it is evident that professional journalists and their allies are organizing to create a revitalized public media system that they, state officials and corporate, elite, station trustees will largely control with little or no role for historically marginalized communities as decision makers or as content producers.
Professional news models of production are collapsing - or rather transforming. Professional journalists themselves are engaged in a desperate struggle to maintain their social position as elite interpreters of daily life through controlling access to the occupation of reporting. As professional journalists seek to reconstruct their gatekeeping authority over online news production, they are also rebuilding barriers to access that historically excluded people of color, the poor and working classes, political dissidents, LGBT communities, and other groups. In short, virtually every emerging model to "save journalism" presented by commercial - and public - media professionals (as well as some academics) reproduces old hierarchies that exclude disadvantaged communities from decision making.
For example, in December of 2009, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) held a workshop deep within the beltway titled "How Will Journalism Survive the Internet Age?" These meetings attempted to make sure that journalism's future will be market based. Of course, when market forces shape news production they inevitably shape the content and the political meaning of news. Renowned journalist Edward R. Murrow acknowledged as much when he warned, if "news is to be regarded as a commodity, only acceptable when saleable, then I don't care what you call it - I say it isn't news" (Speech to the Radio and Television News Directors Association (RTNDA) convention, Chicago, 10/15/1958). Murrow's concern over corporate influence on news did not seem to be shared by the many FTC participants, who, instead, struggled to find ways that the government could help shore up the declining commodity value of news.
Even a workshop panel that explored noncommercial options, "Public- and Foundation-Funded Journalism," (starts at about the 1:18:00 mark here; transcript starts at page 23 here) raised little criticism of corporate influence on news production. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the panel also displayed some of the same exclusions that media activists have critiqued for years, namely a lack of diversity: seven white men, two white women, and one male of color. This translates to 90 percent white, 80 percent male. Lacking representatives from disenfranchised communities, and entertaining no questions from the audience, there was almost no consideration of the issues important to historically marginalized social groups. It was almost as if the panelists had never read the Carnegie Commission report that founded public broadcasting and were unaware of the central role it defined for such groups. The Carnegie report called for a system that will "bring into the home" people's "protests"; "provide a voice for groups in the community that may otherwise be unheard"; "increase our understanding of the world, of other nations and cultures, of the whole commonwealth of man"; and "help us to see America whole, in all its diversity."
This is not to say that the word "diversity" was missing from their vocabularies, but that they used the word in restricted ways. The panelists did support a greater diversity of audiences and content. Panelists also advocated for "technological diversity" and the need for government money to fund it, as well as the need for new productive relationships with software developers. But never did they consider the possibility that the diverse communities they view as audiences also have a legitimate role to play making decisions about public media. Nor did panelists consider opening up new productive relationships - and, thus, career paths - to historically marginalized communities.
There was a little critical discussion about the influence of powerful commercial or state funders, but there was virtually no discussion about the difficulty of making journalism accountable to diverse publics. Instead, some of the most powerful representatives of journalism on the panel argued that the old system simply "worked," and all that's needed is more public money for journalists and technology. The best kind of accountability, they claimed, was for journalists to govern themselves using professional ethics and a strong "firewall" between the newsroom and funding.
To most of us, a firewall is that impenetrable metal barrier that protects the driver and passengers in a car from a conflagration in the engine compartment. There is no such physical divide when it comes to news production, as evidenced by decades of academic research, the work of groups such as Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting and common experience. Instead of the mythical firewall, a more honest depiction should acknowledge a historic and ongoing social struggle among publishers, journalists, designers, and powerful sources to shape the news to their own vision. Lacking power, disadvantaged communities are largely excluded from this struggle.
Panelist Jon McTaggart, the senior vice president & COO of American Public Media (producer of NPR's MarketPlace), said, "I think that any serious news organization has a fire wall in place where organizational funding is certainly distinct from the activities of the journalists themselves."
NPR President and CEO Vivian Schiller went farther and argued that firewalls truly do provide genuine accountability: "Advertising subsidizes the newspaper and all commercial media. You know, does that mean that newspapers have pulled their punches about those advertisers? Certainly not." Astoundingly, she even claimed that there has never been "any instance in the history, at least, of NPR where a story has been slanted or, you know, favorable to a foundation funder."
Eric Newton, vice president of the journalism program at the Knight Foundation, also argued that the old system successfully held commercial news media accountable. "It's about professional ethics. And one of the great things about the commercial newspaper industry is how many hundreds of major newspapers have fantastic codes of ethics that they do hold each other accountable for and the professional organizations and journalism schools do hold them accountable." He even made false and misleading claims that libraries and schools rely on professional ethics and self-governance to be accountable to their communities. Citizens in voting booths looking at their ballots may disagree. Publicly elected boards often govern public libraries and schools.
Even Josh Silver, executive director of Free Press, did little to challenge the clearly self-serving assertions raised by news producers and industry representatives, but, instead, reinforced their frames and ideas. For example, his statement, "we have to know that the firewall is rock-solid" accepts that firewalls could actually be "rock-solid," that professional ethics and best practices could truly be a concrete substitute for public participation. Other statements he made further reinforced a conceptual division between expert professionals and the public, this time casting the FTC participants as legitimate decision makers over community needs: "[W]e need to figure out ... what do communities really need" so that "we" can "really engage the public." Who is this "we" that stands apart from the public, yet decides what that public truly needs?
As the only representative from a media activism movement on the panel, Silver should have defended public participation in the public media system. Instead, Silver's only suggestions for "structural change" were for better ombudsmen, a different appointment process for CPB board members and an abandonment of the appropriations process. But as none of these ideas expose professionals or officials to any meaningful consequences from diverse publics, these ideas would in fact continue to structure public media as a domain of elite control. These changes would, he said, help to insulate public media from too much politics - and on this point he has it all upside down. After all, limiting decision making over public media to officials and insiders is to ensure that it is their political culture that will shape the medium. Should not media justice and democracy activists instead increasingly expose public media to the politics of economic and racial justice and democratic participation?
We need a media system that is partial to justice and the health of our communities. The media justice community and its allies need to critically analyze proposals to remake public media - most importantly those from the Knight Foundation and from Schudson and Downie. Despite the claims of media professionals, industry reps, and some academics, we cannot leave the development of public media to their expertise alone. Professional journalists, corporations, and state officials seem poised to produce a system that represents the relationships they need - not what marginalized communities and social justice movements need. They will give us a marketplace of their ideas and call it just.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Isn't this what Google Fiber is trying to accomplish among other things... Google owns the fiber which it then leases to ISPs which would compete for customers based on service.

Sort of. The problem with the Google approach is that they are moving the monopoly from one company to a bigger company. That companies purpose is still profit . It needs to be someone local that is not in it for profit and is under control of some sort to prevent consumers from getting price gouged. Google might lease to others, but Google still owns the lines , can charge what they want and can lease to who they want and sets the terms.

This is the guy that came up with the plan for separating the local loop. He has a video explaining it all.
http://www.ionary.com/vis.html
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
0
Wrong.
It would not be a taxpayer service. It would be done under utility laws where only the revenue from the service is used to pay for the maintenance. Look up project green light. They wired a town, the city provides the service and it never used a single cent of taxpayer money. What it brings in is what pays for it.

I think you are confused with giving everyone free internet and freeing up local lines. This isn't giving everyone government sponsored access. It is only making sure the local lines remain open to competition. The only way you get internet under the plan is to pay for it. You would have two charges, one for the local loop and the other for the service provider.

If the people living there wanted faster connections they would have to decide if paying more for the local loop each month would be worth it. Only the users are effected. Don't want internet, you get no bill and can carry on as usual.

You know, this is an incredibly sensible and logical idea. I can't find any fault in it whatesoever, except for one thing: it involves government doing something, no matter how small a thing it is. Since it is axiomatic that no government anywhere, at any time in human history, has ever done anything correctly, I must assume for some reason that this idea is doomed to failure.

- wolf