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"We're not upset with you because we think you support Bush,"

So I have a second friend now attacked while overseas for being an american, I came across this letter on the net from some activist site, it is no recent thing in the past few years americans have become despised when traveling for our foreign policy and wars, even those that can't stand bush, a interesting point of view that it is not the right wing aspect of this country that infuriate people so much at this point, but our apathy.




I travel a lot in France these days, and for a long time I was irritated by the anti-Americanism when it was blindly directed toward me. After all, I thought, French people read the paper enough to know that least 50% of our population opposes Bush, the war, and so on. Then, at one point, over a beer at a highway gas station bar, an older French man said to me the following (and it's all the more compelling after the news of the repeal of the youth labor law):

"We're not upset with you because we think you support Bush," he told me. "In fact, we know that most of the Americans that come to France, in particular, don't support him. The point is, if this were happening in France, the vast majority of our students would be out in the streets protesting. Because we believe in political protest, and you don't. That's why you're such a dangerous country in the hands of Bush -- public opinion doesn't matter in your country, because you don't have the power of protest as a check against your President. Every time we see a picture of your city streets with the protesters missing, we blame America not for its idiots that support Bush. Every country has its idiots. Rather, the fact that Bush is still in office is the fault of you--" (he pointed his finger at me) "--you who know that you should be on the streets, and yet you are not."




But do we deserve all the worst things people say are happening? corporate fascism, eroding of church and state, mass corruption? Ok ok, I know some of us here actually voted for the bush, but what of the other side and those that have woken up and has been against this the whole time Have we let this all slide? How much is the media complient in this?
 
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
But do we deserve all the worst things people say are happening?

Corporate fascism, eroding of church and state, mass corruption?

Ok ok, I know some of us here actually voted for the bush, but what of the other side and those that have woken up and has been against this the whole time Have we let this all slide?

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Enjoy
 
I think the Frenchman's speech was absolutely correct. We all sit here, while our totally insane bloodthristy goverment does anything it wants, whenever it wants. We are absolutely to blame. We're cowards.🙁
 
Originally posted by: tommywishbone
I think the Frenchman's speech was absolutely correct. We all sit here, while our totally insane bloodthristy goverment does anything it wants, whenever it wants. We are absolutely to blame. We're cowards.🙁



Well, I would not go so far as to say _cowards_ I mean there we millions at first when the war started, even the first gulf war had lots of protesters, and it is a bit easier for french to rally as they have a central city pretty much a days travel from anywhere.

But as the opposition for the war grows less people are coming out to show support to the anti-war movement, is it pure apathy as our government shows they could care less what the people feel? (nixon acted like he didn't care either though) When is too much enough to stop all this? Iran getting nuked? I am not so sure even that would motivate people as long as there was no draft.

Yeah I do agree with him though, we are just as responsible for our inaction as the cons are for buying into the BS.
 
Originally posted by: tommywishbone
I think the Frenchman's speech was absolutely correct. We all sit here, while our totally insane bloodthristy goverment does anything it wants, whenever it wants. We are absolutely to blame. We're cowards.🙁

Cowards, not all of us. Apathetic yes, to blame yes. I don't remember the last time a candidate for national office seemed interested in anything other than continuing 100+ years of rotten foreign policy. Beyond this, didn't Bush say doing his first presidential campaign that he wasn't for nation building? If they'll flat-out lie and we don't have the balls to nail them to the wall then what's to be done?

 
The reason you don't see people protesting is because here at home things are fine, the economy is doing pretty well, and for a major war, casualties are relatively low (don't get me wrong, I hate the casualties and wish this war could end -- but they aren't nearly as bad as other major wars we've been in)
 
Boy, what that guy said is really true. I admit I haven't ever protested out in the streets either. Here bush is trampling over all our constitutional rights and we don't do anything. I guess we're all just really apathetic. Even the illegal immigrants organized a much bigger protest than the anti-war crowd has.
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
The reason you don't see people protesting is because here at home things are fine, the economy is doing pretty well, and for a major war, casualties are relatively low (don't get me wrong, I hate the casualties and wish this war could end -- but they aren't nearly as bad as other major wars we've been in)


Which shows how selfish and insular we've become as a society. As long as the shine is still on our apple we don't give a flying f*ck what is happening in the rest of the orchard...

Hubris plays a major role in the downfall of all empires.
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
The reason you don't see people protesting is because here at home things are fine, the economy is doing pretty well, and for a major war, casualties are relatively low (don't get me wrong, I hate the casualties and wish this war could end -- but they aren't nearly as bad as other major wars we've been in)

Wow... This is rich... What ones have we been in recently???

This isn't a war this is a JOKE...

One... If it was not for the oil we wouldn't be there.

Two... This was all based on a big fat lie from boosh...

Three... We can't afford to be over there ... Nothing is going right over there because nothing right is going on over here in USA. Has anything gone right??????? Can we continue to spend 2 billion per day in Iraq? NO....

Four... Iraq has a population about the size of any major city in the USA. They have old guns and some dude trying to find parts from radio shack to wire some remote control explosives together. Meanwhile we have full on Air Support ... Thousands of gun ships latest and greatest of everything and we still can't keep it together? Hmmm, who is getting rich off of this?

The reason you don't see protesting is because most people that believe in right for life, Gay agenda, stamping out evolution... Are religious phreaks. You know over half of this nation is willing to set aside how F'ed up this nation is for that reason alone!!!

I believe that is the whole evil agenda behind no one doing anything about this is because religion got idiot boosh into office to basically have a free ride and bend the laws and see how far and how fast he can put this nation into debt while everyone turns a blind eye in the name of the lord...

Ask any church that boosh is giving MILLIONS too if they are ok with this.... I bet you already know the answer to this one...

Good Luck america ... You will need it!
 
BTW, when we protest bush and the GOP just lock people up..

reporters, doctors .. anyone who disagrees with them

bush and rove have changed politics forever.. nobody is allowed to attend their klan meetings if they are suspected of not agreeing with everything bush and pnac do.
 
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: ntdz
The reason you don't see people protesting is because here at home things are fine, the economy is doing pretty well, and for a major war, casualties are relatively low (don't get me wrong, I hate the casualties and wish this war could end -- but they aren't nearly as bad as other major wars we've been in)

Wow... This is rich... What ones have we been in recently???

This isn't a war this is a JOKE...

One... If it was not for the oil we wouldn't be there.

Two... This was all based on a big fat lie from boosh...

Three... We can't afford to be over there ... Nothing is going right over there because nothing right is going on over here in USA. Has anything gone right??????? Can we continue to spend 2 billion per day in Iraq? NO....

Four... Iraq has a population about the size of any major city in the USA. They have old guns and some dude trying to find parts from radio shack to wire some remote control explosives together. Meanwhile we have full on Air Support ... Thousands of gun ships latest and greatest of everything and we still can't keep it together? Hmmm, who is getting rich off of this?

The reason you don't see protesting is because most people that believe in right for life, Gay agenda, stamping out evolution... Are religious phreaks. You know over half of this nation is willing to set aside how F'ed up this nation is for that reason alone!!!

I believe that is the whole evil agenda behind no one doing anything about this is because religion got idiot boosh into office to basically have a free ride and bend the laws and see how far and how fast he can put this nation into debt while everyone turns a blind eye in the name of the lord...

Ask any church that boosh is giving MILLIONS too if they are ok with this.... I bet you already know the answer to this one...

Good Luck america ... You will need it!

No wars recently, what's your point?
 
It's my opinion the fact you don't see protesting is because of the right wing media and the stupid politicians in DC (Both Republicans and Democrats). You see protesting of illegal immigrants and it's plastered all over the media and hyped up big time, but when you see protesting about Iraq it's like it's a weekend excursion for the liberals to say that they protested and then go back to their jobs on Monday and talk to fellow employess what a so-called "difference" they're making. Another problem with protests on the Iraq War is that it hard to get the message across to the policitians that the United States made a mistake (Actually it's mostly President Bush's mistake) when they're (Democrats and Republicans) more concerned about getting re-elected and trying to figure out who's going to be the next Presidential Canidates (I have gut feeling it's going to be Hillary Clinton for the Democrats and John McCain for the Republicans). An secondly the problem is that we still have troops risking and losing their lives right now in Iraq and Afghanistan and for me it's hard to protest against the war and still say "I support the troops". So I don't protest and I'm able to say "I support the troops" with a clear conciensous and this doesn't mean I support Bush because I definitely don't.
 
The French were protesting the job law to protect themselves. They also wanted to deny minorities employment opportunities. It was an act of selfishness. Their protests also devolved into chaos and violence. They ended up as riots, not protests.

Where were the French protesting when their government was organizing the Rwanda genocide? It's in the news again with the Rwanda government opening an official probe just as French warplanes are bombing villages in Chad. France has one of the most dangerous colonialistic genocidal histories and the people don't seem to be protesting against it.
 
Which shows how selfish and insular we've become as a society. As long as the shine is still on our apple we don't give a flying f*ck what is happening in the rest of the orchard...

Hubris plays a major role in the downfall of all empires.

______

Oh Americans, we're all so bad, we're all so selfish and insular, and evil and lazy and insensitive. We should all feel guilty that we are the megapower in the world today... its all our fault. We ought to penalize ourselves for being such a bullish little country. God knows the French know how to do things better anyway. they've really got a handle on the issues over there (muslim immigrants, student riots over new labor laws). Or maybe let China step up and be the benevolent nation its always wanted to be. I'm sure China would be all about human rights and helping their fellow man if only the U.S. would stop getting in the way

. I realize the U.S. contributes more money to Africa and developing nations than any other country in the world, but how dare we not give 10 times that! And what about all the Americans who generously gave to support those impacted by the Tsunami in Indonesia (which we caused by the way)? And who gave to the Pakistan earthquake relief.? Sure the American population voluntarily donated hundreds of millions of dollars in those relief efforts, but its not enough to voluntarily give to charitable institutions. Especially to give to (gasp) Christian churches and help provide relief through private groups. Its the government. The government should raise taxes by 20 percent right now and give all of that to the poor nations that really need it, right?
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
BTW, when we protest bush and the GOP just lock people up..

reporters, doctors .. anyone who disagrees with them


bush and rove have changed politics forever.. nobody is allowed to attend their klan meetings if they are suspected of not agreeing with everything bush and pnac do.

So you're typing this from prison then? :disgust: You need to check your tin-foil beanie for holes.
 
We are cowards? You use a FRENCHMAN`s words to tell us something that the French know quite a bit about?

Look online for a list of French war Heroe`s.......lolol
 
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
We are cowards? You use a FRENCHMAN`s words to tell us something that the French know quite a bit about?

Look online for a list of French war Heroe`s.......lolol

Lol, surprise surprise... an ignorant post! Let;s see...the French didn't want to get stuck in a quagmire in Iraq and guess what! We are in a quagmire. and that makes them cowards? For being intelligent? Talk about a double standard.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
The French were protesting the job law to protect themselves. They also wanted to deny minorities employment opportunities. It was an act of selfishness. Their protests also devolved into chaos and violence. They ended up as riots, not protests.
...but it worked.

Where were the French protesting when their government was organizing the Rwanda genocide? It's in the news again with the Rwanda government opening an official probe just as French warplanes are bombing villages in Chad. France has one of the most dangerous colonialistic genocidal histories and the people don't seem to be protesting against it.
No doubt.
 
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
We are cowards? You use a FRENCHMAN`s words to tell us something that the French know quite a bit about?

Look online for a list of French war Heroe`s.......lolol

...way to sound like a drone
 
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
So I have a second friend now attacked while overseas for being an american, I came across this letter on the net from some activist site, it is no recent thing in the past few years americans have become despised when traveling for our foreign policy and wars, even those that can't stand bush, a interesting point of view that it is not the right wing aspect of this country that infuriate people so much at this point, but our apathy.




I travel a lot in France these days, and for a long time I was irritated by the anti-Americanism when it was blindly directed toward me. After all, I thought, French people read the paper enough to know that least 50% of our population opposes Bush, the war, and so on. Then, at one point, over a beer at a highway gas station bar, an older French man said to me the following (and it's all the more compelling after the news of the repeal of the youth labor law):

"We're not upset with you because we think you support Bush," he told me. "In fact, we know that most of the Americans that come to France, in particular, don't support him. The point is, if this were happening in France, the vast majority of our students would be out in the streets protesting. Because we believe in political protest, and you don't. That's why you're such a dangerous country in the hands of Bush -- public opinion doesn't matter in your country, because you don't have the power of protest as a check against your President. Every time we see a picture of your city streets with the protesters missing, we blame America not for its idiots that support Bush. Every country has its idiots. Rather, the fact that Bush is still in office is the fault of you--" (he pointed his finger at me) "--you who know that you should be on the streets, and yet you are not."




But do we deserve all the worst things people say are happening? corporate fascism, eroding of church and state, mass corruption? Ok ok, I know some of us here actually voted for the bush, but what of the other side and those that have woken up and has been against this the whole time Have we let this all slide? How much is the media complient in this?


We don't protest? Ever heard of Cindy Sheehan, or the immigration protests or students at Duke in this curent rape case?

Yeah, there are some protests here. But no, we don't have the same history of protests on large scale the French do (notwithstanding Vietnam).

But at least 2 factors occur to me at the moment for this difference-
(1) The French people seem to view the government as their "sugar daddy", as mentioned above they are protesting for selfish reasons, i.e., give ME more benefits etc. Otherwise, their protests seem to be about keeping French culture "french". Like when protesting against McDonald's. Gawd, imagine the cries of racism if we protested against Mexican restaurants.

(2) The US is so much larger geographically speaking. Would these French travel to, oh say, Moscow or Berlin for a protest?

Moreover, it seems while most US people are dissatisfied with the war on Iraq, they don't wanna see US troop withdrawl at this time. Until that occurs I don't see any protests that make much sense ("We hate the war!" We hate the war!" "But, umm, keep doing it for now" What kind of protest slogan would that be?).

Oh, the bit about public opinion not counting over here - How can we complain about a "poll-driven" government and then say public opinion doesn't count here? :disgust:

Fern
 
Originally posted by: Fern


We don't protest? Ever heard of Cindy Sheehan, or the immigration protests or students at Duke in this curent rape case?
Those are pathetic examples, Sheenan rarely gets shown unless it is to mock her in some way, they do not let her speak, and the duke thing is not political.

Originally posted by: Fern
Yeah, there are some protests here. But no, we don't have the same history of protests on large scale the French do (notwithstanding Vietnam).

Our anti-war protests have been very large to rival france, possibly the UK has more people come out. Thing is french get something done, here it is just a free for aall for cops to act like thugs and something for the media to make fun of.

Originally posted by: Fern
But at least 2 factors occur to me at the moment for this difference-
(1) The French people seem to view the government as their "sugar daddy", as mentioned above they are protesting for selfish reasons, i.e., give ME more benefits etc. Otherwise, their protests seem to be about keeping French culture "french". Like when protesting against McDonald's. Gawd, imagine the cries of racism if we protested against Mexican restaurants.

Where do you get this idea from? French think of the government as sugar daddy? Is this some talk radio right wing anti-socialist thing? We are socialist also in a lot of ways also, our military is the biggest welfare queen the world has known.
Watch your local interstate get potholes and see who thinks the government is our sugar daddy.

Originally posted by: Fern
(2) The US is so much larger geographically speaking. Would these French travel to, oh say, Moscow or Berlin for a protest?
I agree there and already adressed this but why would someone go to another country they do not live in to protest?


Originally posted by: Fern
Moreover, it seems while most US people are dissatisfied with the war on Iraq, they don't wanna see US troop withdrawl at this time. Until that occurs I don't see any protests that make much sense ("We hate the war!" We hate the war!" "But, umm, keep doing it for now" What kind of protest slogan would that be?).

Polls show you are very wrong and people want them home, granted the media could care less and tow the administrations line.


Originally posted by: Fern
Oh, the bit about public opinion not counting over here - How can we complain about a "poll-driven" government and then say public opinion doesn't count here? :disgust:

Fern
[/quote]
Becasue the administration and the media could care less what the people think, there could be a million in dc and bush would act like it did not happen and the media would show some guy getting arrested and pass off the whole event. (and say it was 300k blatently lying to boot.) If the media actually looked into and gave even a part of the time that protesters put in to march and come from so far we would have a much healthier debate on the table, but our "free press" somehow has it's own agenda and straight up ignores america, this is a big part of where the apathy comes from it seems, I mean, why bother? RIght there is the problem, and shows action needs to be taken and far more then what has been done.
 
Originally posted by: ntdz
The reason you don't see people protesting is because here at home things are fine, the economy is doing pretty well, and for a major war, casualties are relatively low (don't get me wrong, I hate the casualties and wish this war could end -- but they aren't nearly as bad as other major wars we've been in)

The economy is doing pretty well if you make a better than average income. For no less than 100 million Americans they are being squeezed by wages that are not keeping pace with energy and health costs.

As for Iraq only a moron would look casualty figures as an indication of progress. Iraq is at best in a holding pattern and at worst in a slow spiral downwards. Bushistas should be ashamed every time they compare Iraq to the Revolutionary War or WWII. It's closer to Vietnam than any significant conflict in the past 150 years . . . but we know Bush Leaguers HATE that comparison. No realistic vision, no realistic plan for executing that vision, and a near total lack of introspection and retrospection . . .
 
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