Wealth versus Health: an example of why things are broken

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201002u/drug-development

There's a pretty simple idea. We accumulate our knowledge of drugs, and apply our best knowledge for treatment, while coming up with some system for researching new, better drugs, gradually improving care.

That's how we'd like to think it works.

Pieces of the system make sense. For example, companies who spendto research new drugs are rewarded patents for them to profit for a period of time to recoup their investment; balanced by this being temporary so eventually, the drug becomes public domain, allowing for inexpensive production in a competitive market of generics.

So far, so good.

But the law of unintended consequences plays a big role. For example, as the article above notes, drugs long since public domain don't make much profit for drug sellers - while they are compelled to make big bucks on the drugs they have patent protection for. And so the healthcare is skewed for the commercial, as money pushes the choices in drugs to change to meet the needs of wealth rather than healthcare.

A drug company might have a patent on drug 1, and drug 2 might be in the public domain. Each might cost $1 - but drug 1 can be sold for $100, $20, $5 - some big markup in big profit since there is no competition, the sky the limit as far as marketig to create demand for the drug can take the price, because no one else can sell it, compete, and lower the price. Meanwhile, drug 2 might get the manufacturer $1.25, and retail for $2.50 on the market, makin gvery little profit.

And so in this system, there can be enormous pressure - based on profit - for the drug companies to get drug 1 used - and that may well mean instead of drug 2 even if drug 2 is better.

In a perfect world, drug 2 would get full use for the good of the patient - but when, when there are such huge economic distortions to incent the wrong choice, has the perfect world not had corruption?

"Ask your doctor about" is one way. With huge marketing budgets, drug companies can build demand directly among the public to 'ask their doctor', who typically have competitive pressure not to say no to their patients too much where they're allowed to say yes, and the use of the drug increases. Everyone's happy - the patient has his manufactured desire met, the doctor has his patient, and the drug company gets more sales.

Now, the government would be a natural for regulating this issue - in finding ways to ensure the real medical needs of the nation are met withyout the bias of profit. So who is spending big bucks to sell the public an ideology against the government playing a role, for 'small government', that 'government is incompetent'? Big Pharma was Republicans' #1 donor the election before the Republicans passed Medicare Part D.
THey give heavily to Democrats as well.

Indeed, under the Republicans, regulatory agencies, typically run by former industry lobbyists, were told to view the companies they regulated as the companies they served the needs of. Saying no was discouraged; negative regulation because overruled on appeal; rules became optional guidelines. None of which served the public, all of which served the industry, who had paid for it, with money for slick ads to persuade the public that that guy claimed he invented the internet so don't vote for him.

What does work? 'Good government', with neutral experts who serve the public interest regulating the industries in ways that work for everyone, and cut out the corruption of policy by profit motives.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
The FDA is the problem, not Republicans. Has been for decades. Although I see how you (wrongfully) link the two.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Typical Craig solution.

A lot of people like yourself have been conned into believing that government isn't for the people and by the people, but is instead some external entity out to get you.

Only government can ban drug ads, assuming it would be constitutional, which has been done in every other developed nation except New Zealand.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The problem is both, with a few Democrat sprinkles on top.

For some fun reading google Monsanto and the FDA.

Always good to see an informed post. I might do a post on Monsanto if I see interest since not one right winger will take your good suggestion. they all but never do, they really don't care about the facts.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
The FDA is the problem, not Republicans. Has been for decades. Although I see how you (wrongfully) link the two.


Would you elaborate? The FDA performs vital functions, however it like most government institutions is in need of reform.

What particularly are you meaning?
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
A lot of people like yourself have been conned into believing that government isn't for the people and by the people, but is instead some external entity out to get you.

Only government can ban drug ads, assuming it would be constitutional, which has been done in every other developed nation except New Zealand.

Consumer-targeted drug advertisement used to be banned here in the USA. They used to have to market to the doctors / healthcare professionals only. Until the drug lobby un-did that (in the late eighties / early nineties, if i recall correctly).
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Would you elaborate? The FDA performs vital functions, however it like most government institutions is in need of reform.

What particularly are you meaning?

Well, the FDA deserves its own thread, one Im not going to start. That said, I agree it performs vital functions. dont misunderstand my post with meaning I think they need to be disbanded. Not at all. But, coming from a medicine background growing up, I am somewhat familiar with problems that the FDA faces. For example, takew all the drug recalls from China. Did you know that the FDA is in charge of inspections for companies that make drugs for US companies? Off the top of my head, I believe there are about 750 (give or take 50) factories that produce drugs for the USA. Of those, less than 20 were actually inspected last year. Same goes for our food. Less than 5% of cattle farms are ever inspected. Notice the rise in beef recalls in the last decade? (watch the movie I have linked in my sig). Its one of the reasons I dont eat anything but locally grown, grain fed beef and poultry. It's the FDA's fault we have been taught corn fed beef is the best. Its not! It's TERRIBLE feed for beef.

I just dont trust the FDA, in general. Take a look at the FDA's board of directors, and look up their profiles...most are old cronies at companies like 3M, Monsanto, Tyson, and Smithfield foods. Look at prescription drug deaths over the last 15 years...they've quadrupled. Thats because the requirements for drug trials are less, and approval times that used to be 2+ years are now down to less than one.

I'll leave it at that for now. There are too many problems to list in one thread. But there's no denying the FDA needs an overhaul.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Well, the FDA deserves its own thread, one Im not going to start. That said, I agree it performs vital functions. dont misunderstand my post with meaning I think they need to be disbanded. Not at all. But, coming from a medicine background growing up, I am somewhat familiar with problems that the FDA faces. For example, takew all the drug recalls from China. Did you know that the FDA is in charge of inspections for companies that make drugs for US companies? Off the top of my head, I believe there are about 750 (give or take 50) factories that produce drugs for the USA. Of those, less than 20 were actually inspected last year. Same goes for our food. Less than 5% of cattle farms are ever inspected. Notice the rise in beef recalls in the last decade? (watch the movie I have linked in my sig). Its one of the reasons I dont eat anything but locally grown, grain fed beef and poultry. It's the FDA's fault we have been taught corn fed beef is the best. Its not! It's TERRIBLE feed for beef.

I just dont trust the FDA, in general. Take a look at the FDA's board of directors, and look up their profiles...most are old cronies at companies like 3M, Monsanto, Tyson, and Smithfield foods. Look at prescription drug deaths over the last 15 years...they've quadrupled. Thats because the requirements for drug trials are less, and approval times that used to be 2+ years are now down to less than one.

I'll leave it at that for now. There are too many problems to list in one thread. But there's no denying the FDA needs an overhaul.

The FDA is seriously underfunded and understaffed. This was done on purpose by Ronald Reagan. He neutered them for the sake of ideology.

Here is an article from 1987 http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/04/w...fda-is-unsafe-in-reagan-era.html?pagewanted=1
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,397
8,564
126
Consumer-targeted drug advertisement used to be banned here in the USA. They used to have to market to the doctors / healthcare professionals only. Until the drug lobby un-did that (in the late eighties / early nineties, if i recall correctly).

broadcast rules loosened in the http://www.kff.org/rxdrugs/upload/Impact-of-Direct-to-Consumer-Advertising-on-Prescription-Drug-Spending-Summary-of-Findings.pdf, it appears.

do you take issue with all DTC marketing? magazine ads seem fine to me, the TV ads are the really big one, it seems.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
The FDA is seriously underfunded and understaffed. This was done on purpose by Ronald Reagan. He neutered them for the sake of ideology.

Here is an article from 1987 http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/04/w...fda-is-unsafe-in-reagan-era.html?pagewanted=1

To try and pin FDA problems on to one president is not only naive, but pretty much dismisses your claim as partisan and uneducated. Funny you mention Reagan but fail to mention Clinton's passing of "user fee" laws in 1992. Arguably that bill was far more damaging than Reagans. But again, it's no one president's problem, and the FDA's problem dont necessarily stem from the white house. But rather, from congress.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201002u/drug-development

There's a pretty simple idea. We accumulate our knowledge of drugs, and apply our best knowledge for treatment, while coming up with some system for researching new, better drugs, gradually improving care.

That's how we'd like to think it works.

Pieces of the system make sense. For example, companies who spendto research new drugs are rewarded patents for them to profit for a period of time to recoup their investment; balanced by this being temporary so eventually, the drug becomes public domain, allowing for inexpensive production in a competitive market of generics.

So far, so good.

But the law of unintended consequences plays a big role. For example, as the article above notes, drugs long since public domain don't make much profit for drug sellers - while they are compelled to make big bucks on the drugs they have patent protection for. And so the healthcare is skewed for the commercial, as money pushes the choices in drugs to change to meet the needs of wealth rather than healthcare.

A drug company might have a patent on drug 1, and drug 2 might be in the public domain. Each might cost $1 - but drug 1 can be sold for $100, $20, $5 - some big markup in big profit since there is no competition, the sky the limit as far as marketig to create demand for the drug can take the price, because no one else can sell it, compete, and lower the price. Meanwhile, drug 2 might get the manufacturer $1.25, and retail for $2.50 on the market, makin gvery little profit.

And so in this system, there can be enormous pressure - based on profit - for the drug companies to get drug 1 used - and that may well mean instead of drug 2 even if drug 2 is better.

In a perfect world, drug 2 would get full use for the good of the patient - but when, when there are such huge economic distortions to incent the wrong choice, has the perfect world not had corruption?

"Ask your doctor about" is one way. With huge marketing budgets, drug companies can build demand directly among the public to 'ask their doctor', who typically have competitive pressure not to say no to their patients too much where they're allowed to say yes, and the use of the drug increases. Everyone's happy - the patient has his manufactured desire met, the doctor has his patient, and the drug company gets more sales.

Now, the government would be a natural for regulating this issue - in finding ways to ensure the real medical needs of the nation are met withyout the bias of profit. So who is spending big bucks to sell the public an ideology against the government playing a role, for 'small government', that 'government is incompetent'? Big Pharma was Republicans' #1 donor the election before the Republicans passed Medicare Part D.
THey give heavily to Democrats as well.

Indeed, under the Republicans, regulatory agencies, typically run by former industry lobbyists, were told to view the companies they regulated as the companies they served the needs of. Saying no was discouraged; negative regulation because overruled on appeal; rules became optional guidelines. None of which served the public, all of which served the industry, who had paid for it, with money for slick ads to persuade the public that that guy claimed he invented the internet so don't vote for him.

What does work? 'Good government', with neutral experts who serve the public interest regulating the industries in ways that work for everyone, and cut out the corruption of policy by profit motives.

So you have problems with medical company advertising (that pesky 1st Amendment and freedom of speech - grumble); the profit motive (those filthy capitalists), and the needs of the wealthy being catered to (dang people who make money, how dare they).
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
So you have problems with medical company advertising (that pesky 1st Amendment and freedom of speech - grumble); the profit motive (those filthy capitalists), and the needs of the wealthy being catered to (dang people who make money, how dare they).

He's a progressive now. Duh.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
So you have problems with medical company advertising (that pesky 1st Amendment and freedom of speech - grumble); the profit motive (those filthy capitalists), and the needs of the wealthy being catered to (dang people who make money, how dare they).

No, clueless. I could explain how you are misrepresenting my position, but you don't deserve the bother.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/09/fda.scientists/
Anything done about that?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5356029
Big Pharma wins, Americans lose.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/executive/2003-12-23-canada-drugs_x.htm
Big Pharma wins, Americans lose.

http://www.naturalnews.com/021791_the_FDA_medical_racket.html
The FDA is a tool for Big Pharma, not American citizens.

But it's not shocking. Just another government agency created to "protect Americans" that becomes a tool for corporations who wish to break the barriers set by the market.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/09/fda.scientists/
Anything done about that?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5356029
Big Pharma wins, Americans lose.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/executive/2003-12-23-canada-drugs_x.htm
Big Pharma wins, Americans lose.

http://www.naturalnews.com/021791_the_FDA_medical_racket.html
The FDA is a tool for Big Pharma, not American citizens.

But it's not shocking. Just another government agency created to "protect Americans" that becomes a tool for corporations who wish to break the barriers set by the market.

Exactly.