Discussion [WCCFTech] What’s Up With The Missing NVIDIA DLSS Support In AMD Sponsored FSR Titles?

[Thunder 57]

My understanding was that Vulkan was a somewhat open standard, and a successor to OpenGL.

My understantading is that Vulkan is largely based on Mantle, but with some OpenGL being redone.

 

[Shmee]

Yeah that is a fair thought, mantle development did help lead into Vulkan. But then it also helped pave the way for DX12. It was the pioneer low level API.

 

[moinmoin]

Vulkan is AMD tech.

So is DX12, both borrowed heavily from Mantle (which btw. was a joint venture of EA's DICE with AMD, not AMD alone) but only one of them is an open standard.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Vulkan would be preferable at this point.

DirectX is more widely used for PC games, but it can be added to both.

 

[moinmoin]

DirectX is more widely used for PC games, but it can be added to both.

Windows games, you mean.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Windows games, you mean.

Which are >90% of PC games, so they are essentially the same thing.

 

[moinmoin]

Which are >90% of PC games, so they are essentially the same thing.

As a PC user using Linux I naturally disagree completely.

 

[Heartbreaker]

As a PC user using Linux I naturally disagree completely.

Pretty sure Linux PC gamers are less than 2% of the population, and most Linux gaming is probably playing Windows games through emulation, so what exactly are you disagreeing with?

 

[moinmoin]

Pretty sure Linux PC gamers are less than 2% of the population, and most Linux gaming is probably playing Windows games through emulation, so what exactly are you disagreeing with?

The PC is hardware. The DirectX games run under Windows, so they are Windows games.

 

[Heartbreaker]

The PC is hardware. The DirectX games run under Windows, so they are Windows games.

Which doesn't contradict any of my statements.

Most PC games use directX, because most PC games target Windows, because well over 95% of gaming PCs run Windows.

 

[moinmoin]

Which doesn't contradict any of my statements.

Oh, you did add a statement that contradict that.

so they are essentially the same thing.

They are not.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Oh, you did add a statement that contradict that.

They are not.

Saying the PC gaming market is essentially the Windows Gaming market is true.

So it's 98% instead of 100%, but for the purpose of any decisions around which API to target that 2% difference is irrelevant.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

Now that Microsoft is almost cleared for the acquisition of Activision Blizzard, it's ultimately a matter of either life or death for DLSS at Microsoft's own hands since they have more POWER than everybody else to decide for the entire industry in this "upscaling tech race" ...

 

[aigomorla]

Actually the largest game market is probably android / ios followed by consoles, and then windows.

But Heartbreaker is partially correct if we get rid of the first two.
However Vulkan again thanks to consoles would see the largest benefit.

Oh, you did add a statement that contradict that.

They are not.

Your just twisting his words.
He said:

Most PC games use directX, because most PC games target Windows, because well over 95% of gaming PCs run Windows.

He implied most PC gamers are Windows users...
Which again is partially true if we ignore Andriod / iOS and Consoles.

The Steam Hardware Survey reports that as of July 2021, 1% of users are using some form of Linux as their platform's primary operating system.

Video games and Linux - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

in 2021 it was 1%.

Steam now shows its less then 1%

Steam Hardware & Software Survey

What amazes me is how many people are using laptop 3060's to play games on steam.
I guess its from the pandemic times when GPU's in general were near impossible to source, and it was cheaper getting a laptop with a dgpu then a videocard by itself.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Actually the largest game market is probably android / ios followed by consoles, and then windows.

But Heartbreaker is partially correct if we get rid of the first two.
However Vulkan again thanks to consoles would see the largest benefit.

I was pretty clear I was talking about the PC games market, which automatically excludes the Mobile/Console markets.

AFIAK, Vulkan doesn't benefit from consoles. Last time I read about this Microsoft was DirectX only for Xbox, and Sony has was only GNM/GNMX APIs for PlayStation development. So again more benefit for DirectX.

What amazes me is how many people are using laptop 3060's to play games on steam.
I guess its from the pandemic times when GPU's in general were near impossible to source, and it was cheaper getting a laptop with a dgpu then a videocard by itself.

Given that the PC market is mostly laptops now, I'm a little surprised the laptop chips are still lower than the desktop chips.

 

[Tup3x]

I agree. It could lead to developer laziness.

With DLSS support it's possible to get DLAA even if it's not officially supported (to include DLSS and not include DLAA is next level laziness...). Since in-game TAA solutions can be anything from garbage to passable, it would be nice to have that DLSS/DLAA option. Though, considering that TAA was rather good in Skyrim: SE, it's likely going to be decent in Starfield too.

 

[Thunder 57]

I was pretty clear I was talking about the PC games market, which automatically excludes the Mobile/Console markets.

AFIAK, Vulkan doesn't benefit from consoles. Last time I read about this Microsoft was DirectX only for Xbox, and Sony has was only GNM/GNMX APIs for PlayStation development. So again more benefit for DirectX.




Given that the PC market is mostly laptops now, I'm a little surprised the laptop chips are still lower than the desktop chips.

Doom Eternal is on consoles. AFAIK it runs exclusivly on Vulkan. Maybe they did some magic tricks to make it work in another way?

With DLSS support it's possible to get DLAA even if it's not officially supported (to include DLSS and not include DLAA is next level laziness...). Since in-game TAA solutions can be anything from garbage to passable, it would be nice to have that DLSS/DLAA option. Though, considering that TAA was rather good in Skyrim: SE, it's likely going to be decent in Starfield too.

I find DLAA more interesting than DLSS. TAA can be be crap, I wish it wasn't basically mandatory these days. If you have powerful enough hardware, I'd prefer to just turn on AA and increase resolution scaling for old school SSAA.

 

[DrMrLordX]

FYI AMD wasn't saying much when Nvidia started their Geforce Partner Program either. Should we have ignored the press reports about their attempt to capture AIB premium branding?

AMD sure responded to Gameworks:

AMD says Nvidia’s GameWorks “completely sabotaged” Witcher 3 performance

There are plenty of performance issues in The Witcher 3, but who’s to blame?

arstechnica.com

However, by openly accepting this practice, we help normalize the idea that exclusive access to IQ features is fair game.

That ship sailed over a decade ago.

@Tup3x

See above comments from AMD 8 years ago. Their response to Gameworks was quite a bit different than what NV is saying today (which is precious little). Of course NV knows they still dominate the PC dGPU space, and that it's not going to move more AMD cards or fewer NV cards if AMD-sponsored titles wind up supporting only FSR2.

Personally I'd like to see a standard emerge or at least have NV open up DLSS to everyone so it can compete on even ground with FSR and XeSS. XeSS might even be the eventual winner.

 

[moinmoin]

Personally I'd like to see a standard emerge or at least have NV open up DLSS to everyone so it can compete on even ground with FSR and XeSS. XeSS might even be the eventual winner.

Yeah, ideally there would be a unified standard upscaler that also incorporates the vendor specific optimizations. Unfortunately only FSR is using a permissive license (essentially MIT style from what I see), XeSS' license doesn't allow modification (wth? why put it on github at all then?), and as for Nvidia...

 

[Heartbreaker]

Doom Eternal is on consoles. AFAIK it runs exclusivly on Vulkan. Maybe they did some magic tricks to make it work in another way?

Idtech 7 is Vulkan only, on PC:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1028133659168186368

"Yes, it’s #Vulkan only on PC. #Vulkan is the best API if you want to achieve the absolute highest frame rates on PC."

They way they say that implies to me that for consoles, it's whatever the console wants. They are big boys they can code to the renderer that the console demands. From what I can find, the only console that supports Vulkan is the Switch.

 

[Glo.]

So is DX12, both borrowed heavily from Mantle (which btw. was a joint venture of EA's DICE with AMD, not AMD alone) but only one of them is an open standard.

And so is Metal, albeit with quite some higher level stuff, to simplify writing of Apps.

 

[moinmoin]

And so is Metal

And the similarities between Mantle, Vulkan, DX12 and Metal are definitely a positive as those make all the translation layers between those APIs feasible and usable to begin with.

Still looks like a completely unnecessary fragmentation.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

And the similarities between Mantle, Vulkan, DX12 and Metal are definitely a positive as those make all the translation layers between those APIs feasible and usable to begin with.

Still looks like a completely unnecessary fragmentation.

There's still plenty of differences between each API that don't make them quite interchangeable. Translation layers aren't trivial in implementations either ... (i.e. VKD3D-proton/dxil-spirv for D3D12/DXIL -> Vulkan/SPIR-V is well over 300K+ LoC)

Metal doesn't have geometry shaders or transform feedbacks/stream-output and their tessellation pipeline model is incompatible in design compared to other gfx APIs ... (hence mediocre or subpar results with their Game Porting Toolkit)

D3D12 and Mantle don't have renderpasses and they have a more powerful binding model to boot when not factoring in extensions ...

 

[Mopetar]

Now that Microsoft is almost cleared for the acquisition of Activision Blizzard, it's ultimately a matter of either life or death for DLSS at Microsoft's own hands since they have more POWER than everybody else to decide for the entire industry in this "upscaling tech race" ...

Not really that much more than previously. Activision Blizzard have had their heads up their posteriors for a while now and you already have Microsoft owned companies like Bethesda doing their own thing.

In the long term I think it'll play out against NVidia simply because open standards are better for more people. Of course by then there will be something new and probably even more stupid to fight over.

 

[coercitiv]

Of course by then there will be something new and probably even more stupid to fight over.

Did you just say proprietary ray tracing acceleration?!