Discussion [WCCFTech] What’s Up With The Missing NVIDIA DLSS Support In AMD Sponsored FSR Titles?

[yottabit]

Is this really where we are at now? A 15 page thread crying about upscalers?

Lord have mercy on our souls

 

[AdamK47]

Is there really where we are at now? A 15 page thread crying about upscalers?

Lord have mercy on our souls

We live in times where controversy is the norm with people looking for their next dopamine bump.

Look on YouTube with these supposed PC hardware experts (influencers). It's always something new to get angry about. They want their views and they know how to get it. It has been getting worse and worse.

 

[Tup3x]

If this was about NVIDIA I'm sure that most people here would already be out there burning cars and shouting how horrible and anti-consumer etc. they are. The fact that they aren't saying "Developers are free to add competing scalers." is damning enough.

Currently it looks like this: There's a man in a porcelain shop with a sledgehammer and everything is in pieces. No one saw what happened. When asked if he was the one who broke everything, he says: "No comment."

 

[DrMrLordX]

If this was about NVIDIA I'm sure that most people here would already be out there burning cars and shouting how horrible and anti-consumer etc. they are. The fact that they aren't saying "Developers are free to add competing scalers." is damning enough.

Currently it looks like this: There's a man in a porcelain shop with a sledgehammer and everything is in pieces. No one saw what happened. When asked if he was the one who broke everything, he says: "No comment."

Except the shop owner won't comment either, and the competitor across the street isn't exactly complaining. You see where your analogy doesn't quite hold up? NV could easily be raising hell right now, but they aren't. It isn't NV saying anything, it's CapFrameX and WCCFTech.

This supposedly-major feature goes missing from an AMD-sponsored title and the only party saying anything is one AMD dev on Twitter calling it horse hockey. Bethsoft won't say anything. AMD won't say anything. NV won't talk, either.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Is this really where we are at now? A 15 page thread crying about upscalers?

Lord have mercy on our souls

Same as it ever was. This is what the GPU market has always been.

Except the shop owner won't comment either, and the competitor across the street isn't exactly complaining. You see where your analogy doesn't quite hold up? NV could easily be raising hell right now, but they aren't. It isn't NV saying anything, it's CapFrameX and WCCFTech.

This supposedly-major feature goes missing from an AMD-sponsored title and the only party saying anything is one AMD dev on Twitter calling it horse hockey. Bethsoft won't say anything. AMD won't say anything. NV won't talk, either.

Curious that, no? And what, a week later, we have the report that Nvidia is pressuring AIBs to not partner with Intel. A few certain posters in this thread are curiously quiet about that though. Wonder why...

It is a major feature because its necessary for them to keep pushing their stilted version of ray-tracing, otherwise the performance hit would make games unplayable.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Is this really where we are at now? A 15 page thread crying about upscalers?

Lord have mercy on our souls

Crying? No. Just amusement at the people still in denial, with no alternative explanation of why AMD can't answer a simple question, after three weeks of being asked in multiple ways, by multiple media outlets. Something NVidia had no trouble answering on the first day...

But hey, AMD are the "good guys", because "reasons"...

It just points out something I've said all along.

"Corporations aren't your friend".

No one should super-fan any corporation. They all do what they do, to make the most money possible. No other reason.

The only reason you get better pricing from the corporations in second, or third place, is because they need to have lower pricing to attract buyers, not because they are the "good guys". The moment they were on top, they would start charging more, and the newly behind would be cutting their prices.

 

[coercitiv]

This supposedly-major feature goes missing from an AMD-sponsored title and the only party saying anything is one AMD dev on Twitter calling it horse hockey. Bethsoft won't say anything. AMD won't say anything. NV won't talk, either.

FYI AMD wasn't saying much when Nvidia started their Geforce Partner Program either. Should we have ignored the press reports about their attempt to capture AIB premium branding?

Exclusive FSR deployment in a few PC titles is almost meaningless by itself. It doesn't move the needle in the upscaler race. However, by openly accepting this practice, we help normalize the idea that exclusive access to IQ features is fair game. We're telegraphing this to industry players, and you can be sure they're watching with interest.

 

[gdansk]

FYI AMD wasn't saying much when Nvidia started their Geforce Partner Program either. Should we have ignored the press reports about their attempt to capture AIB premium branding?

Exclusive FSR deployment in a few PC titles is almost meaningless by itself. It doesn't move the needle in the upscaler race. However, by openly accepting this practice, we help normalize the idea that exclusive access to IQ features is fair game. We're telegraphing this to industry players, and you can be sure they're watching with interest.

I agree with that but we already accepted exclusive technology. The entire point of DLSS is an exclusive IQ feature...

 

[Heartbreaker]

I agree with that but we already accepted exclusive technology. The entire point of DLSS is an exclusive IQ feature...

When a company develops a new technology and is first to deploy it.

That is the kind of exclusive you want to see. You want to encourage the development of new/alternate technologies.

It's another when a company deploys a technology, and then actively blocks competing technologies, this is the behavior you want to discourage, because it discourages alternate technologies.

From an end user perspective you want to maximize the encouragement of new/alternate technologies, not minimize or discourage them.

 

[gdansk]

When a company develops a new technology and is first to deploy it.

That is the kind of exclusive you want to see. You want to encourage the development of new/alternate technologies.

It's another when a company deploys a technology, and then actively blocks competing technologies, this is the behavior you want to discourage, because it discourages alternate technologies.

From an end user perspective you want to maximize the encouragement of new/alternate technologies, not minimize or discourage them.

And what does this do to stop it from being an exclusive IQ feature?
The only way out is for them to open DLAA. And they are not doing that. So until then who cares. It's just another proprietary feature for which one can have no expectation of support.

 

[Heartbreaker]

And what does this do to stop it from being an exclusive IQ feature?
The only way out is for them to open DLAA. And they are not doing that. So until then who cares. It's just another proprietary feature for which one can have no expectation of support.

Only the implementation is proprietary, everyone is free to copy the idea, and everyone has implemented their own version of temporal scaling.

After which they can compete on the quality of their implementations. Which is pretty much how everything works in GPUs. Rasterizers, Ray Tracing, etc.. All proprietary implementations of the same idea.

Rather than, block the competitors scaler from showing up, because you can't compete on quality.

 

[Ajay]

Only the implementation is proprietary, everyone is free to copy the idea, and everyone has implemented their own version of temporal scaling.

After which they can compete on the quality of their implementations. Which is pretty much how everything works in GPUs. Rasterizers, Ray Tracing, etc.. All proprietary implementations of the same idea.

Rather than, block the competitors scaler from showing up, because you can't compete on quality.

Uh, no. Companies obtain an extensive patent portfolios when they develop new technologies, from the general to the particular (called bracketing), purposefully, so that it is extremely difficult to create a competing technology. Thankfully, allot of the ideas behind fundamental 3D rendering technologies were either out of patent protection or licensable by more friendly companies/universities earlier in the development of gaming GPUs.

 

[Panino Manino]

FYI AMD wasn't saying much when Nvidia started their Geforce Partner Program either. Should we have ignored the press reports about their attempt to capture AIB premium branding?

Except that that case wasn't supposition or circunstancial evidence.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Uh, no. Companies obtain an extensive patent portfolios when they develop new technologies, from the general to the particular (called bracketing), purposefully, so that it is extremely difficult to create a competing technology. Thankfully, allot of the ideas behind fundamental 3D rendering technologies were either out of patent protection or licensable by more friendly companies/universities earlier in the development of gaming GPUs.

Ideas are not patentable. Implementations are. You are free to pursue your own implementation.

NVidia, Intel, and AMD are all doing their own implementation of temporal scaling idea.

That's not to say that occasionally, overly broad Patens aren't granted making it hard for alternative implementations.

 

[aigomorla]

Curious that, no? And what, a week later, we have the report that Nvidia is pressuring AIBs to not partner with Intel. A few certain posters in this thread are curiously quiet about that though. Wonder why...

I am really sure this is all a rumor.
Why? because Intel did this with vendors to lock out AMD from enterprise and big AIBS like Dell and HP for example.

And do you remember what happened?

So unless some super idiot at Nvidia ignore history, and wanted to repeat the epic fail Intel did, i highly doubt any of that is true.

Then again, there have been a lot of idiotic moves done by corporations lately, all in the act of trying to preserve there DEI score ESG for firms to invest in, but i don't this falls under any of those two.

 

[KompuKare]

I am really sure this is all a rumor.
Why? because Intel did this with vendors to lock out AMD from enterprise and big AIBS like Dell and HP for example.

And do you remember what happened?

So unless some super idiot at Nvidia ignore history, and wanted to repeat the epic fail Intel did, i highly doubt any of that is true.

Then again, there have been a lot of idiotic moves done by corporations lately, all in the act of trying to preserve there DEI score ESG for firms to invest in, but i don't this falls under any of those two.

Long term I recall this differently.
At the time nothing happened. Years and years later, Intel did pay some settlement but remember they never pleaded guilty.

So basically:

1. Lean heavy on Dell, HP with bribes, kickbacks, "or else" exclusivity.
2. Engage in activities which are illegal in most jurisdictions.
3. Reap the massive rewards.
4. Years and years later reluctantly pay a small fine while still maintaining your innocence.

As long as #3 is far larger than 4# then I don't think the Intel example is any deterrent. Quite the reverse. And the not pleading guilty is important as (at least with EC) once you are found guilty subsequent fines are harder and far quicker.

 

[Tup3x]

Except the shop owner won't comment either, and the competitor across the street isn't exactly complaining. You see where your analogy doesn't quite hold up? NV could easily be raising hell right now, but they aren't. It isn't NV saying anything, it's CapFrameX and WCCFTech.

This supposedly-major feature goes missing from an AMD-sponsored title and the only party saying anything is one AMD dev on Twitter calling it horse hockey. Bethsoft won't say anything. AMD won't say anything. NV won't talk, either.

NVIDIA doesn't have to say anything but they've said enough - they did say that they do not block other scalers which made AMD's PR team and their comments look even worse.

In any case, there's pretty clear trend in AMD sponsored games where there's only dated, poorly implemented FSR2 and no other scalers. It would be good for everyone if this would change. When companies act like this customers should react (and set their personal preferences aside).

Anyway, I hope they implement FSR, XeSS and DLSS in Starfield. That way everyone wins.

 

[Mopetar]

NVidia cards can still run FSR, so I'm not sure what the big deal is. It's a slightly worse way of increasing your frame rate than DLSS.

Frankly if I were a developer I wouldn't add support for anything that isn't an open standard unless paid. Otherwise you're just slitting your own wrists in the long term. This is just G-sync all over again. If NVidia wants DLSS in your game, make them pay, even if it's quick or easy to implement.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Frankly if I were a developer I wouldn't add support for anything that isn't an open standard unless paid. Otherwise you're just slitting your own wrists in the long term. This is just G-sync all over again. If NVidia wants DLSS in your game, make them pay, even if it's quick or easy to implement.

Game developers are going to use proprietary libraries, like DirectX. It's just a fact of life, unless you are developing open source games for free on Linux. You would probably also paying to use proprietary UE4, or Unity, or your own in house Proprietary game engine.

It would be best if Microsoft just added a temporal scaling API to DirectX, then this exclusive scaler support nonsense would be over...

 

[igor_kavinski]

It would be best if Microsoft just added a temporal scaling API to DirectX, then this exclusive scaler support nonsense would be over...

Or just DON'T use a scaler.

 

[Thunder 57]

Or just DON'T use a scaler.

I agree. It could lead to developer laziness.

 

[moinmoin]

Game developers are going to use proprietary libraries, like DirectX.

Vulkan would be preferable at this point.

 

[aigomorla]

PixilGTP.... have AI just draw new images for you.

Vulkan would be preferable at this point.

Vulkan is AMD tech.
Its not that much different from FSR.
Nvidia cards i believe can run FSR, but it doesn't play nice.
I believe some nvidia cards can run FSR tho.

I can't say much about DLSS.
I don't think any of the Radeon cards can run DLSS.

I feels like were back in the whole Xfire vs SLI days, where games would be broken for one but not the other, or scale horribly for one and not the other.

 

[Bigos]

Vulkan is AMD tech.
Its not that much different from FSR.

The initial Vulkan spec was based on AMD's Mantle. That was over 7 years ago. It evolved due to contributions from AMD, *NVidia*, Intel, ARM, Qualcomm, Microsoft, Google and many more. It is now very different, especially after the render pass stuff was reworked and binding model simplified. Heck, there are many NVidia-specific extensions (RT was one for a while before a proper cross-platform extension was implemented, VRS was cooking even longer as NVidia-only on Vulkan).

It is also developed by a consortium of many companies (see above) and not a one-man party like FSR.

If Vulkan is not working optimally on NVidia GPUs, NVidia can work on that by itself. Either in the spec or on its own driver. It is nothing like FSR which is controlled solely by AMD, from the algorithm to the implementation.

 

[Shmee]

My understanding was that Vulkan was a somewhat open standard, and a successor to OpenGL.