Discussion [WCCFTech] What’s Up With The Missing NVIDIA DLSS Support In AMD Sponsored FSR Titles?

[DrMrLordX]

If this is how industry is going, my next card maybe a 7950XTX and not a 4090ti.

AMD has technically dominated the GPU space for years thanks to the Xbox 1 and PS4, if we use those criteria. In the meantime, NV still has the fastest dGPUs on the PC market and ~90% of the PC marketshare (and near-100% of its mindshare). Despite all the console ports.

Remember FSR still works on NV video cards which is why this whole "controversy" is so stupid. Hopefully AMD will address quality problems with FSR in its next incarnation so there will be fewer legitimate complaints.

 

[PJVol]

I love you for the comic value you provide in this thread

Yeah, it kinda looks like he didn't really realize what the pic was about, since his whole point perfectly fit "the first way to be fooled" )

 

[Heartbreaker]

Yeah, it kinda looks like he didn't really realize what the pic was about, since his whole point perfectly fit "the first way to be fooled" )

You pretty much have to be delusional at this point to still deny that AMD is locking partners out of DLSS.

 

[Panino Manino]

This is still circumstantial evidence, I'm not seeing anything more than opinion that this upscaling fsr exclusivity is part of a contract. This could be what Tim/HUB/etc allege, it could just be CYA from AMD marketing to avoid losing their jobs if they say no, yes, maybe and turn out to be wrong.

Like in that famous meme, "Talk to me in your own words! I'm begging you, speak so I can understand you!"

It's not a question if it's true or not anyome, the genius at AMD marketing are killing (their mind share) again!
The engineering team should sue the marketing team.
Its unacceptable that their hard word be compromised like this.

 

[igor_kavinski]

As someone who knows this flamboyant guy in marketing, they are so dumb but relentless. Think Steve Ballmer level crazy. They will hammer their idiotic message into your head. Repeat their spiel till your mind goes numb and you have no choice but to repeat after them. I can totally believe AMD marketing as being responsible for this PR disaster.

 

[AtenRa]

Like in that famous meme, "Talk to me in your own words! I'm begging you, speak so I can understand you!"

It's not a question is it's true or not anyone, the genius at AMD marketing are killing (their mind share) again!
The engineering team should sue the marketing team.
Its unacceptable that their hard word be compromised like this.

The only problem I see from AMD right now is that NVIDIA has released 6x ADA graphics cards from $1600 all the way down to $300 the last 8 months but on the other hand AMD only released 3 cards , two at $900 and $1000 and one at $280.
No matter what marketing you have, if you dont have the hardware to sell you are domed to fail and let consumers buy the competitor's product uncontested.

 

[PJVol]

No matter what marketing you have, if you dont have the hardware to sell you are domed to fail and let consumers buy the competitor's product uncontested

How does it matter when none of the new products from both are really competitive to the previous gen outside of the top end segment?

 

[AtenRa]

How does it matter when none of the new products from both are really competitive to the previous gen outside of the top end segment?

AMD doesnt actually have a competing product from $280 to $800, so it does matter.

 

[Timorous]

I use a rendering technique called "Native 4K". Some of you may have heard of it. It works in both AMD and Nvidia sponsored titles.

Even still DLAA is usually a step up vs the games in built TAA solution and once you have implemented DLAA you have DLSS as well (same for FSR 2).

 

[darkswordsman17]

AMD doesnt actually have a competing product from $280 to $800, so it does matter.

Sure they do, well slowly getting to did. Their previous gen filled that gap. Which is also what Nvidia tried for initially to clear stock. And it was one of the few times Nvidia took the heat for the overall situation. But as we see with this thread, nothing will matter because anything and everything, big or small, real or imagined, will still fall back on AMD. And this is why we knew why Nvidia's behavior would lead exactly to this situation. And, as shown, propaganda works. From the moment Nvidia's literally doing something, they've been able to get enough people to be certain AMD is doing the same (or in their minds worse). See the OP who's been straight up calling anyone that criticizes Nvidia as paid AMD shills. Meanwhile, he doesn't say a peep about issues that affect everyone including Nvidia users.

As we see there's little point to them offering such, because neither company can seemingly offer a compelling product in that price range.

Even still DLAA is usually a step up vs the games in built TAA solution and once you have implemented DLAA you have DLSS as well (same for FSR 2).

And here we see exactly what we said, that Raytracing and all this other was going to lead to exactly what we were told it was there to fix (all the middleware and "cheats"), we were told over and over that raytracing was going to make everything easier for devs and would bring performance gains because it was going to get rid of all the stuff they were using for fakery of similar lighting, just like now we're being told over and over that DLSS just needs a simple box checked to enable it (which ignores a variety of issues).

People remember that right? Remember how we were told raytracing was going to get rid of issues and make it easier for devs, now we have Nvidia defenders touting how you DLSS can be applied through middleware (Streamline) that translates any similar so it can be enabled (which they act like is both trivially easy and also would be problem free and superior). And then they have the gall to try and gaslight us like they haven't been spouting this stuff but we're paid shills for calling this nonsense out. (Not saying you specifically are doing that, but we've repeatedly had people like the OP doing exactly that.)

Furthermore, now, instead of reviewers bothering to spend basically any time actually testing image quality any longer (which shows how often 8GB limitations causes serious degradation due to these various cheats hogging VRAM), and other issues like how even native isn't native because they automatically apply some affects that seemingly can only be resolved by using other cobbled together cheats, most of which don't work as claimed (or we get nebulous "wait for the next version), meanwhile we get more and more cheats and fakery like DLSS 3 interpolating frames.

 

[PJVol]

AMD doesnt actually have a competing product from $280 to $800, so it does matter

How so? Aren't all currently selling RDNA2 GPUs competing with the 7600 and yet to be released n32?

 

[aigomorla]

AMD doesnt actually have a competing product from $280 to $800, so it does matter.

the 6600XT does a dayam good job at 280 market... and the upcoming 7800XT will probably do a nice job at the 800.

But Sigh... when did we start seeing 800 dollar video cards as normal and 1600 dollar non titan / development cards as top tier?

 

[Tup3x]

the 6600XT does a dayam good job at 280 market... and the upcoming 7800XT will probably do a nice job at the 800.

But Sigh... when did we start seeing 800 dollar video cards as normal and 1600 dollar non titan / development cards as top tier?

If it costs 800 €/$ it's dead on arrival.

 

[BFG10K]

Once you have one of these temporal scalers, adding any of the others is trivial: They all use the same inputs, so it's literally just cut and paste coding to add another, assuming you don't already have template, macro, abstract class for this.

Please provide evidence. Source code examples having one then "copy / paste" to get the other two. Or direct developer commentary from a neutral (non-nVidia sponsored) developer.

We were told something similar about ray tracing. "Just flip a switch and everything automatically works everywhere without developer effort!"
A lie.

We were also told "once engines support DX12, everyone will get automatic performance boosts without any developer effort, including all indie developers!"
Also a lie.

 

[Heartbreaker]

... and the upcoming 7800XT will probably do a nice job at the 800.

The 7900 XT is already $800, so it would need to be less than that, and if it was only $100 less, it would seem like it's making the original 7900 XT pricing mistake all over again. If 7800 XT is more than $600, AMD screwed up again on RDNA 3 launch.

 

[igor_kavinski]

If 7800 XT is more than $600, AMD screwed up again on RDNA 3 launch.

I'll let them price it up to $649. More than that makes the value proposition iffy, especially since they are running behind on the promised software side of things. FSR3 still MIA.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Please provide evidence. Source code examples having one then "copy / paste" to get the other two. Or direct developer commentary from a neutral (non-nVidia sponsored) developer.

All three of the GPU company Scalers use the same inputs/setup. The real work will be exposing those inputs and setting up for the first scaler you support, but after you have done that for any one of them, it definitely would be as simple as copying what you did for the first one, and changing the calls to one of the others. Though most developers would do as was mentioned earlier in the thread and build some kind of abstraction layer. Either using NVidia Streamline or something in house.

Also for third party game engines like Unity and UE4, the work is already done (and I would bet most in house engines as well).

I have seen the example for UE4. Literally all you have to do for UE4 is download the free DLSS plugin, put it in your plug-in directory, activate the plug-in, and restart your project, and you have DLSS working. It's literally about 5 minutes work for UE4.

Anyone claiming it's a lot of work to add a 2nd or 3rd scaler at this point is either ignorant, or lying.

We were told something similar about ray tracing. "Just flip a switch and everything automatically works everywhere without developer effort!"
A lie.

We were also told "once engines support DX12, everyone will get automatic performance boosts without any developer effort, including all indie developers!"
Also a lie.

I think you misinterpreted some things.

These are fundamentally different things. RT obviously requires extensive work, per scene, it's an active decision about where you will and won't use reflections, ray limitations, tuning etc...

A scaler OTOH does not involve any per scene tuning. It hooks into the rendering engine in one place, once you do that setup, it's essentially done. Once you have hooked in one scaler, the others hook in the exact same place, with the exact same inputs, so it's absolutely trivial to add the others.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Once you have hooked in one scaler, the others hook in the exact same place, with the exact same inputs, so it's absolutely trivial to add the others.

Except you have to go and play test the game all over again, looking for any visual abnormalities or bugs. Using FSR, things will look the same on any powerful enough card.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Except you have to go and play test the game all over again, looking for any visual abnormalities or bugs. Using FSR, things will look the same on any powerful enough card.

If there are any visual anomalies (and you can see scaling issues in many games), there is generally nothing you can do about them, except ask the Scaler provider for a newer version to address those anomalies, so I would bet almost no one playtests explicitly looking for scaler anomalies, they just live with them.

 

[Tup3x]

Except you have to go and play test the game all over again, looking for any visual abnormalities or bugs. Using FSR, things will look the same on any powerful enough card.

Considering what kind of FSR implementations are out there (like Jedi Survivor) I highly doubt that they do any extensive visual anomaly testing for scalers.

 

[Dribble]

Except you have to go and play test the game all over again, looking for any visual abnormalities or bugs. Using FSR, things will look the same on any powerful enough card.

If you implement DLSS Nvidia will probably test it for you (they have a large dedicated game testing center) thereby giving you a load of free testing.

 

[Mopetar]

Considering what kind of FSR implementations are out there (like Jedi Survivor) I highly doubt that they do any extensive visual anomaly testing for scalers.

When you have goons posting about how the AI upsampled frame looks better than native why would anyone? Psychology tests have shown that if you just have one person claiming something false to a larger group, you can get a lot of people to conform with the lie just because they don't want to rock the boat.

 

[igor_kavinski]

If you implement DLSS Nvidia will probably test it for you (they have a large dedicated game testing center) thereby giving you a load of free testing.

Yeah right. Unless you have proof, I say that thing that comes out a cow's behind.

 

[Heartbreaker]

When you have goons posting about how the AI upsampled frame looks better than native why would anyone? Psychology tests have shown that if you just have one person claiming something false to a larger group, you can get a lot of people to conform with the lie just because they don't want to rock the boat.

I think we have reasonable unbiased testers like HWUB that show that it indeed sometimes some scalers can look better than native, though sometimes some can looks worse.

The issue with targeted scaler testing is that scaler image quality issues are ultimately out of your control. There are no per scene settings you can change. It's a scaler with one hook into your rendering engine, and it's quality is primarily determined by the company that built the scaler, and it's an option meant to improve performance, potentially at the expense of some image quality, so if that happens, it's not unexpected and would not raise a QA issue. Almost all games have significantly bigger QA issues to focus on, and I expect almost no time will be spent on testing for scaler image quality.

 

[aigomorla]

If it costs 800 €/$ it's dead on arrival.

yeah but market trend has shown them always overcharging the first couple of months, then flooring the price after.
But again who knows as other pointed the 7900XT can be bought on sale now for about 750.

But they can pull a Jensen, give the 7800XT 24 GB of ram, and charge a AMD Tax on it to 800 dollars like Nvidia