Wayne Gretzky had some insane career scoring numbers.

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: rh71
Guys, guys, you can't forget that he and Lemieux played in an era where goaltenders were floppers and defensemen had terrible positioning. Today's systems and use of game tapes makes those feats impossible... not to mention much bigger and better conditioned players as a whole. Watch some Youtube of his goals or assists and pay attention to what the goalies or defensemen are doing... goalie size... backcheckers? It's laughable.

Gretzky may still be great if he played now but it would be impossible to put up the same numbers in the NHL. Bank on it.

What is your point?

considering that a goal wouldn't count if an offensive player had any part of their body/equipment in the goalie's crease when Gretzky was playing, as opposed to today, I certainly find his point worthless.

I don't watch Hockey much these days, but from what I recall, the rules have been "updated" over the previous decade to increase scoring opportunities. Kind of odd to mention that it was "far easier" for Lemieux/Gretzky to score as many goals as they did during a time when it is popularly considered a "low-scoring" era.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: zinfamous
now that we have all the Canadians gathered together in one thread....

Whoa whoa zin, keep your pants on.

KT

 

[sandorski]

Gretzky and the '80's Oilers were awesome. Many times they were down and out going into the Third, then scored a flurry of Goals to Win. It was quite the thing to see.

 

[Steve]

Good thing he could play and score, because man he sure as hell couldn't fight. Check YouTube for (both?) his fights. Epic fail.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Legendary.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Legendary.

Awesome! :thumbsup:

KT

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: rh71
Guys, guys, you can't forget that he and Lemieux played in an era where goaltenders were floppers and defensemen had terrible positioning. Today's systems and use of game tapes makes those feats impossible... not to mention much bigger and better conditioned players as a whole. Watch some Youtube of his goals or assists and pay attention to what the goalies or defensemen are doing... goalie size... backcheckers? It's laughable.

Gretzky may still be great if he played now but it would be impossible to put up the same numbers in the NHL. Bank on it.

What is your point?

considering that a goal wouldn't count if an offensive player had any part of their body/equipment in the goalie's crease when Gretzky was playing, as opposed to today, I certainly find his point worthless.

I don't watch Hockey much these days, but from what I recall, the rules have been "updated" over the previous decade to increase scoring opportunities. Kind of odd to mention that it was "far easier" for Lemieux/Gretzky to score as many goals as they did during a time when it is popularly considered a "low-scoring" era.

this is correct

 

[oiprocs]

This is kind of like the Wilt Chamberlain thing.

Athletes just weren't that good in those days, so if you happened to be really talented your star shined much brighter than the rest.

Put Ovechkin or Kobe (even better, LeBron) into that era and you'd have stat lines that would make you cum on sight.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: rh71
Guys, guys, you can't forget that he and Lemieux played in an era where goaltenders were floppers and defensemen had terrible positioning. Today's systems and use of game tapes makes those feats impossible... not to mention much bigger and better conditioned players as a whole. Watch some Youtube of his goals or assists and pay attention to what the goalies or defensemen are doing... goalie size... backcheckers? It's laughable.

Gretzky may still be great if he played now but it would be impossible to put up the same numbers in the NHL. Bank on it.

What is your point?

considering that a goal wouldn't count if an offensive player had any part of their body/equipment in the goalie's crease when Gretzky was playing, as opposed to today, I certainly find his point worthless.

I don't watch Hockey much these days, but from what I recall, the rules have been "updated" over the previous decade to increase scoring opportunities. Kind of odd to mention that it was "far easier" for Lemieux/Gretzky to score as many goals as they did during a time when it is popularly considered a "low-scoring" era.

this is correct

Hockey was totally F'd in the late 90s. It's back to a real game these days where all the holding BS is no longer tolerated. Some people seem to forget that Wayne did play during the era of holding and did pretty damned good.

 

[DayLaPaul]

Yea sure, Gretzsky's numbers are godly, but he was playing in what amounts to the stone age of hockey. You had guys wearing Jason masks when he played.

 

[JDawg1536]

WTF are you all talking about "players of yesterday" and "stone age"???? Ovechkin was in jr high when Gretzky was still playing. It wasn't THAT long ago.

 

[Capt Caveman]

A reason why he's called 'The Great One'.

 

[cpacini]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Yeah, it's nuts. How about 92 goals in one regular season too!

KT

50 in 50, or was it 40?

61 in 50! :thumbsup:

KT

more importantly, 50 in 39

 

[JDawg1536]

Originally posted by: obscenethistle
This is kind of like the Wilt Chamberlain thing.

Athletes just weren't that good in those days, so if you happened to be really talented your star shined much brighter than the rest.

Put Ovechkin or Kobe (even better, LeBron) into that era and you'd have stat lines that would make you cum on sight.

You really think Kobe and LeBron would have better stats against Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, Dikembe Mutombo, and Charles Barkley, and Dennis Rodman than they do now? The defenders were much more physical and intimidating when Jordan was playing. Now there are just a bunch of weak rules and soft defense because of it.

 

[DayLaPaul]

Originally posted by: JDawg1536
WTF are you all talking about "players of yesterday" and "stone age"???? Ovechkin was in jr high when Gretzky was still playing. It wasn't THAT long ago.

Have you watched many highlight from the mid 80's and before? It's a joke to compare the eras. It was like those goalies back in the day had an aversion to bending over. In a lot of those breakaway "highlights" you'll see the goalie sitting back timidly in the crease only giving a token effort at stopping the puck, as if he knew he was already beat.

The goalie play today is light years ahead of the mid 80's. If you took a random backup goalie from today and let him play in the 80's, he'd be a perennial Vezina trophy winner. Guaranteed.

 

[masterxfob]

if you want perspective, consider that sports these days are full of crybabies. all these overpaid 'athletes' of today probably wouldn't last a full season back in the day.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Hockey was totally F'd in the late 90s. It's back to a real game these days where all the holding BS is no longer tolerated. Some people seem to forget that Wayne did play during the era of holding and did pretty damned good.

You're right, he did, but in terms of his lifetime stats, he did not so good.

Wayne put up his numbers in the 1980s - he had the career title locked up by 1989, and his last scoring title was in 1993-94. Not that he put up poor numbers for his last five seasons, but he was a point-per-game player, certainly a star, but no longer truly dominant. You could attribute this to a reduction in his skills, or to the major changes in the game at this time.

This was at the same time as goalies like Roy and the upcoming Brodeur were changing the nature of goaltending, and teams like New Jersey were implementing and perfecting the clutch and grab / neutral zone trap that slowed down scoring (New Jersey won the Cup in 1995).

The new style of play tended to highlight the fact that Gretzky, for everything he was, was neither large, physical, nor a particularly strong skater. The stars of this era were bigger, more physical, and less skilled than those of the generation before. Even now with a more open game, it's still a physical one, and you can't protect a player like teams used to protect Gretzky. In today's game, if you want to score the goals, you have to take the contact.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: rh71
Guys, guys, you can't forget that he and Lemieux played in an era where goaltenders were floppers and defensemen had terrible positioning. Today's systems and use of game tapes makes those feats impossible... not to mention much bigger and better conditioned players as a whole. Watch some Youtube of his goals or assists and pay attention to what the goalies or defensemen are doing... goalie size... backcheckers? It's laughable.

Gretzky may still be great if he played now but it would be impossible to put up the same numbers in the NHL. Bank on it.

What is your point?

considering that a goal wouldn't count if an offensive player had any part of their body/equipment in the goalie's crease when Gretzky was playing, as opposed to today, I certainly find his point worthless.

I don't watch Hockey much these days, but from what I recall, the rules have been "updated" over the previous decade to increase scoring opportunities. Kind of odd to mention that it was "far easier" for Lemieux/Gretzky to score as many goals as they did during a time when it is popularly considered a "low-scoring" era.

The creases were much smaller back then too. With the size of today's goalies (and equipment), if you put a modern goalie in an old crease, he'd take up almost all the room in it. A player encroaching on that territory would likely be physically touching the goalie.

Someone did a fairly good statistical analysis of player performance (goals and/or points per game) vs league dynamics (goals per team per year, goalie sv% etc), and found that Lemieux was the better player due mainly to him playing in a harder era.

Still, Gretz is a god and did some crazy things.

 

[rh71]

You can really tell who watches & follows hockey in this thread and who's just saying wow those numbers are really big. I'm not trying to be elitist but if you're going to defend your point, don't reference a rule that was put in place 1 or 2 years and taken back out.

Originally posted by: silverpig

Someone did a fairly good statistical analysis of player performance (goals and/or points per game) vs league dynamics (goals per team per year, goalie sv% etc), and found that Lemieux was the better player due mainly to him playing in a harder era.

On HFBoards? I saw something similar... trying to look for the link again. Anyway, the point stands... points that high will not be attained in this day and age because of tons of factors already mentioned... not based on a player's skills alone.

 

[fustercluck]

Probably belongs on the Mt Rushmore of Sports, even though I don't like Hockey myself.

 

[meltdown75]

Bobby Orr was the greatest hockey player ever.

 

[bignateyk]

I'm sure it's been mentioned in the thread, but have you seen how terrible the goalies were at the peak of his career? Less skilled goalies than today + very little padding makes for some high scoring games.

Not saying he wasn't a great player though.

 

[Woosta]

Originally posted by: bignateyk
I'm sure it's been mentioned in the thread, but have you seen how terrible the goalies were at the peak of his career? Less skilled goalies than today + very little padding makes for some high scoring games.

Not saying he wasn't a great player though.

Not his fault for being ahead of everyone else, just like Wilt Chamberlain was and it really doesn't make sense to me degrading him because of that. Are you simply saying that today's hockey players aren't that ahead of everyone else, which is why they cannot do what he did? Just like how Kobe can't get 4029 pts in a single season, nor even 3k for that matter?

 

[bignateyk]

Originally posted by: Woosta

Originally posted by: bignateyk
I'm sure it's been mentioned in the thread, but have you seen how terrible the goalies were at the peak of his career? Less skilled goalies than today + very little padding makes for some high scoring games.

Not saying he wasn't a great player though.

Not his fault for being ahead of everyone else, just like Wilt Chamberlain was and it really doesn't make sense to me degrading him because of that. Are you simply saying that today's hockey players aren't that ahead of everyone else, which is why they cannot do what he did? Just like how Kobe can't get 4029 pts in a single season, nor even 3k for that matter?

I wasn't degrading him. I'm just saying that you can't compare players in just about any sport from decade to decade because the game changes. Hockey in the 80's was a completely different game than it is today.