Way to go Walmart...(even if you hate them)

[rudder]

CNN - Walmart planning on providing E85 fuel.

Incidentally, I hate shopping at Walmart. I do applaud thier plan though. Since big oil has a firm lock on gasoline stations and a few small independants are trying to sell E85 fuel, this is a way to get this fuel mainstream.

Walmart has a lot of kinks to work out but maybe in the process with such a potentially big player, E85 will be more economical to produce.

 

[Genx87]

E85 is a joke. Take away the fed and state subsidies and the farm subs and what do you think it would cost per gallon? I am guessing more than oil.

And doesnt it require the use of fossil fuels to create in large quantities? Not to mention a gallon of E85 doesnt go as far as regular gasoline.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Genx87
E85 is a joke. Take away the fed and state subsidies and the farm subs and what do you think it would cost per gallon? I am guessing more than oil.

And doesnt it require the use of fossil fuels to create in large quantities? Not to mention a gallon of E85 doesnt go as far as regular gasoline.

E85 from corn is a joke and a cruel one played upon the American taxpayer.

Ethanol from other feedstocks has great potential.

 

[KB]

Ethanol can be made from sugar cane, corn and even prairie switchgrass. Although currently it is too costly to use in large quantities, it has potential and shouldn't just be ignored. Home owners can even distill their own for the purposes of alternative fuel (not consumption) (http://www.green-trust.org/ethanol.htm). Finally all of that unfarmed land can be used for something besides houses.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I hate to be the cold shower:

1) WalMart won't do this unless they can make money on E85.

2) Ethanol is in the ballpark of being competitive with gasoline due to a 51 cent per gallon federal subsidy. I have a suspicion that we can't sustain that as E85 production ramps up . . . neither should we.

3) Ethanol production is still miniscule and expensive. We either have to fundamentally change how we do it (switch to cellulosic) and/or import from other countries like Brazil or dare I say it . . . Cuba.

4) Much of the ethanol produced will be required as an oxygenate to replace additives like MTBE so it won't be available for E85.

5) Even if we had more ethanol it would require its own distribution system (pipelines, rails, trucks).

6) E85 vehicles will have to compete with new-generation diesels and hybrids that will get significantly better gas mileage. In essence, E85 will widen the advantage of diesels/hybrids so the only reasons one would have to buy E85 vehicles: 1) E85 is made in America, 2) the vehicle is 'maybe' made in America, and 3) it's less polluting than gasoline engines.

The problems are that 1) our current corn model cannot supply enough E85 to make much of a dent in our foreign oil consumption, 2) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future, and 3) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future?

WalMart won't sell it until items 1-5 are in its favor.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I hate to be the cold shower:

1) WalMart won't do this unless they can make money on E85.

2) Ethanol is in the ballpark of being competitive with gasoline due to a 51 cent per gallon federal subsidy. I have a suspicion that we can't sustain that as E85 production ramps up . . . neither should we.

3) Ethanol production is still miniscule and expensive. We either have to fundamentally change how we do it (switch to cellulosic) and/or import from other countries like Brazil or dare I say it . . . Cuba.

4) Much of the ethanol produced will be required as an oxygenate to replace additives like MTBE so it won't be available for E85.

5) Even if we had more ethanol it would require its own distribution system (pipelines, rails, trucks).

6) E85 vehicles will have to compete with new-generation diesels and hybrids that will get significantly better gas mileage. In essence, E85 will widen the advantage of diesels/hybrids so the only reasons one would have to buy E85 vehicles: 1) E85 is made in America, 2) the vehicle is 'maybe' made in America, and 3) it's less polluting than gasoline engines.

The problems are that 1) our current corn model cannot supply enough E85 to make much of a dent in our foreign oil consumption, 2) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future, and 3) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future?

WalMart won't sell it until items 1-5 are in its favor.

Brazil can't hope to currently put much of a dent in our ethanol market because the sheer quantity demmanded is just so huge compared to their fuel requirements.

The switch to Ethanol will require fewer changes than any other liquid fuel alternative (with the exception of Biodiesel for the commecial sector). Rail, barge, tanker, and truck being the best solutions since production will almost certainly be less centralized compared to petroleum refining (which makes pipelines attractive).

Also, engines made for E85 (high compression) will get much better mileage than existing engines burning it.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Genx87
E85 is a joke. Take away the fed and state subsidies and the farm subs and what do you think it would cost per gallon? I am guessing more than oil.

Shouldn't cellulosic ethanol, if they start mass producing it down the road, help with cost? Besides, dosen't the gov. help oil companies quite a bit too? Even if it is more expensive, offering an alternative isn't necessarily a bad thing. If in the future, it gives people the ability to spend the same or more, in order to keep their money from going to countries like S.A. I think they should be able to vote with their wallets. Heck, people buy high priced organic food, for whatever reasons, perhaps they would also buy more expensive fuel for their vehicles, by telling them it "reduces carbon emissions by more than 80% while eliminating most? the release of acid-rain-causing sulfur dioxide." Along with the selling point of helping reduce dependence on overseas oil.

Is it the answer, likely not, but it just may be part of the solution.

While a weak debating point, if we could shift a significant portion of fuel consumption to something like cellulosic ethanol, even with all the subsidies, couldn't it be cheaper in the long term? If we produced enough oil for our needs in the future due to alternative energy sources, then the incentive to become embroiled in military conflicts in the M.E. might go away, and save us hundreds of billions yeah, I know, weak.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I hate to be the cold shower:

1) WalMart won't do this unless they can make money on E85.

2) Ethanol is in the ballpark of being competitive with gasoline due to a 51 cent per gallon federal subsidy. I have a suspicion that we can't sustain that as E85 production ramps up . . . neither should we.

3) Ethanol production is still miniscule and expensive. We either have to fundamentally change how we do it (switch to cellulosic) and/or import from other countries like Brazil or dare I say it . . . Cuba.

4) Much of the ethanol produced will be required as an oxygenate to replace additives like MTBE so it won't be available for E85.

5) Even if we had more ethanol it would require its own distribution system (pipelines, rails, trucks).

6) E85 vehicles will have to compete with new-generation diesels and hybrids that will get significantly better gas mileage. In essence, E85 will widen the advantage of diesels/hybrids so the only reasons one would have to buy E85 vehicles: 1) E85 is made in America, 2) the vehicle is 'maybe' made in America, and 3) it's less polluting than gasoline engines.

The problems are that 1) our current corn model cannot supply enough E85 to make much of a dent in our foreign oil consumption, 2) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future, and 3) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future?

WalMart won't sell it until items 1-5 are in its favor.

Brazil can't hope to currently put much of a dent in our ethanol market because the sheer quantity demmanded is just so huge compared to their fuel requirements.

The switch to Ethanol will require fewer changes than any other liquid fuel alternative (with the exception of Biodiesel for the commecial sector). Rail, barge, tanker, and truck being the best solutions since production will almost certainly be less centralized compared to petroleum refining (which makes pipelines attractive).

Also, engines made for E85 (high compression) will get much better mileage than existing engines burning it.

As long as we don't start buying the corn from China..I would use it.
But I think there are better alternatives out there.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I hate to be the cold shower:

1) WalMart won't do this unless they can make money on E85.

2) Ethanol is in the ballpark of being competitive with gasoline due to a 51 cent per gallon federal subsidy. I have a suspicion that we can't sustain that as E85 production ramps up . . . neither should we.

3) Ethanol production is still miniscule and expensive. We either have to fundamentally change how we do it (switch to cellulosic) and/or import from other countries like Brazil or dare I say it . . . Cuba.

4) Much of the ethanol produced will be required as an oxygenate to replace additives like MTBE so it won't be available for E85.

5) Even if we had more ethanol it would require its own distribution system (pipelines, rails, trucks).

6) E85 vehicles will have to compete with new-generation diesels and hybrids that will get significantly better gas mileage. In essence, E85 will widen the advantage of diesels/hybrids so the only reasons one would have to buy E85 vehicles: 1) E85 is made in America, 2) the vehicle is 'maybe' made in America, and 3) it's less polluting than gasoline engines.

The problems are that 1) our current corn model cannot supply enough E85 to make much of a dent in our foreign oil consumption, 2) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future, and 3) this argument isn't working now why would it work in the near future?

WalMart won't sell it until items 1-5 are in its favor.

Brazil can't hope to currently put much of a dent in our ethanol market because the sheer quantity demmanded is just so huge compared to their fuel requirements.

The switch to Ethanol will require fewer changes than any other liquid fuel alternative (with the exception of Biodiesel for the commecial sector). Rail, barge, tanker, and truck being the best solutions since production will almost certainly be less centralized compared to petroleum refining (which makes pipelines attractive).

Also, engines made for E85 (high compression) will get much better mileage than existing engines burning it.

As long as we don't start buying the corn from China..I would use it.
But I think there are better alternatives out there.

In the not horribly distant future, China could end up buying energy from the US.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: daniel49
As long as we don't start buying the corn from China..I would use it.

But I think there are better alternatives out there.

We can't even produce enough Ethanol with a 51 cent bullsh!t subsidy.

This says it all right here for the Big Oil sell outs tied to the Texas Bush Regime:

======================================================
All this leaves people like Reid Detchon - who has worked on ethanol issues since the 1980s, and served in the energy department in the first Bush administration - feeling like ethanol's moment may finally be here.

Particularly if Wal-Mart gets on board, Detchon says: "If oil stays at anything like these prices, I think ethanol will grow as fast as the farmers can produce it.

We are on the cusp of a fundamental change."
======================================================
We're on the cusp alright, of going back to 1890's America with no electricity, heat or cars in America except for the super rich.

 

[Unheard]

Edit: Pwned myself. Apologies to dmcowen674 if he read this.

 

[ebaycj]

cellulosic process improvements + switchgrass over 10% of US farmland + E85 Hybrid Cars + E85 at every walmart gas station = Good to go.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

cellulosic process improvements . . . quite a few years out

switchgrass over 10% of US farmland . . . never as long as corn lobby has a say

E85 Hybrid Cars . . . has GM or Ford run that many vehicles exclusively on E85? When did the domestics start making vehicles Americans actually want to buy . . . without a $5k rebate?

E85 at every walmart gas station . . . over a decade away.


I'm not saying its hopeless it just seems a touch fantastic to expect big things from E85 considering we've chosen:
1) the worst possible way of making it
2) don't even talk to a country that could provide huge amounts of sugar cane (Cuba)
3) basically have to rely on companies losing 1/3 of their sales (domestics) to produce and sell enough vehicles to make a difference
4) have to convince consumers to buy a new car that gets substantially less mileage on a fuel that costs just as much as petrol . . . (even more without the subsidy . . . which is paid for by taxes).

 

[WiseOldDude]

We currently get soaked by the oil companies with hurricanes, shipwrecks, pipeline problems, wars, political posturing as their excuse.

Now they can add crop failures, drought to their list of excuses to gouge the consumer.

Farmers may raise the corn or sugar cane, but the oil companies will be the distributors, and the ones to profit the most by jacking the price.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: Genx87
E85 is a joke. Take away the fed and state subsidies and the farm subs and what do you think it would cost per gallon? I am guessing more than oil.

Shouldn't cellulosic ethanol, if they start mass producing it down the road, help with cost? Besides, dosen't the gov. help oil companies quite a bit too? Even if it is more expensive, offering an alternative isn't necessarily a bad thing. If in the future, it gives people the ability to spend the same or more, in order to keep their money from going to countries like S.A. I think they should be able to vote with their wallets. Heck, people buy high priced organic food, for whatever reasons, perhaps they would also buy more expensive fuel for their vehicles, by telling them it "reduces carbon emissions by more than 80% while eliminating most? the release of acid-rain-causing sulfur dioxide." Along with the selling point of helping reduce dependence on overseas oil.

Is it the answer, likely not, but it just may be part of the solution.

While a weak debating point, if we could shift a significant portion of fuel consumption to something like cellulosic ethanol, even with all the subsidies, couldn't it be cheaper in the long term? If we produced enough oil for our needs in the future due to alternative energy sources, then the incentive to become embroiled in military conflicts in the M.E. might go away, and save us hundreds of billions yeah, I know, weak.

The problem I have is, what technologies do we subsidize? I mean, I have a great idea, the govt should subsidize it so I can enter the market and compete. What purpose does it serve when the govt interferes in an open market situation?

We end up with the current situation where they are using the worst possible method and hide the costs by taxing our incomes instead of at the pump. Take the subsidizes away and let the market take care of the situation. If the technology cant compete with oil, then why are we throwing money at it to relieve our addiction to oil?

Doesnt make any economic sense whatsoever.

When oil becomes too expensive, you can believe the open market will find an alternative. And that alternative may be E85, but clearly it isnt ready for prime time yet.