WAY off topic: Building your own speakers

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DiamondFire13

Senior member
May 17, 2000
392
0
0
Big John,

I definitely prefer more/smaller drivers as opposed to one large one. Everyone keeps saying how much easier it is to build a sealed box, although it would have less volume, it would be an easier box to build/calculate. I currently have a set of the Klipsch Promedias, they are using a 160 Watt sub with 2 6-1/2" drivers, it is incredible and extednds to probably 28 Hz or so. I wouldnt mind somehting that sounded about the same, just with more volume and more accuracy, i dont know if it is at all possible to improve somthing built by a great company (i should also mention that it is a Class A/B amp driving the thing) I was wondering how 4 opposed 8 inchers would do, 2 on each side of a sealed box. I think I could spend the money to get about a 300 Watt amp to them.

I havent found any plans, but I could just make it up as I went.

Thanks,
Paul

I will probably buy those PSB alphas, I have herad other things about them and they seem to be well-respected
 

Lalakai

Golden Member
Nov 30, 1999
1,634
0
76
DiamondFire13, a friend teaches a high school class on building speakers. he has the programs to calculate the frequency range you want, how to account for cabinet materials/baffles/size, copper windings and rating of copper resistors, ect.. He's pretty hard core about this and the kids love it (they've built some outstanding units). I'll pick his brain and get some info for you and relay it. Send me an email so I can ship the data to you. (He has me out scrounging old electric motors so that he can use the copper windings, then he measures the resistance in the copper wire and uses it to calculate the impact on the frequency response. His kids build mid-range units, sub-woofers and such.) Hope this can help you.
 

bigjon

Senior member
Mar 24, 2000
945
0
0
I've never tried 4 8's but it could be done in a very compact box if you had 2 sets in Isobarik configuration. Personally I'd go with 10s if you have the room because they will push a lot more air. Yes, you're right, a sealed box will be a lot easier to build and is a lot more forgiving if you don't get the design just right. For a first project, I'd definitely recommend this route. The first ported speaker I built was a disaster and sounded so bad I ended up building a new sealed enclosure.

The book I recommended in my last post contains all the formulas for determining the right size box for a particular driver. One reason I really like Parts Express for buying speakers is that for each speaker they sell they show the Thiele-Small parameters (for use in the formulas).

If you spend a good bit of time in the design you won't regret it :)
 

maddmax

Senior member
Aug 24, 2000
351
0
0
For reference materials it's audioxpress.com. Check out CLIO pc based speaker test setup. Looks like time to free up another IRQ. BTW CLIO data can be imported into most of the best loudspeaker design programs(TOPBOX, LEAP, SPEAKEASY...)
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
The notion that large woofers are slow is a hoax. It was probably started by some marketing guy years ago, and is currently dogma for 99% of the so called audiophile community. But, it is just that, a myth. In fact most of the stuff those guys swear by is pure sh!te. Sometimes it is hard for me to walk into a stereo store without hearing one of the clichés of audiophools..like smaller quicker subs, transparent mids, liquid highs, or, when talking of amplifiers, "high energy steam." This crap is heard so widely, that even though no one can explain what it means, even folks in reputable places, like Madisound will spout off about it-not the owner, he is no fool, but some of his employees are. I have one 12" in my car, and it is not at all boomy. I have to use SIX 12" drivers for mid bass, and 2 18" in the home to equal it. All music sounds wonderful on it, from Led Zeppelin, to the 1812 Overture, to Opera. If anything, rap sounds horrible on it because the so called bass in RAP is actually synthesized to have a peak at 60hz, and its harmonic, 120hz...which is that weird, annoying boomy sound you think of when you think of some punk kid in a lowridder. If you want awesome tight bass, that really does sound fast, you need to be able to play LOW - 10hz. And, when tanks roll past in a movie...heh, you should see people's facial expressions - and then they normally look outside to see if a train is passing the house...
 

usual_suspect

Senior member
Jan 16, 2000
332
0
0
I subscribed to Speaker Builder magazine when I build my one and only sub. I built it for my dad who has magnaplanar speakers which are great but have no bass.

I forget what freq. the low pass filter cut off at but I used a dual voice coil 15" in a forward firing enclosure made of solid oak with an external 200w carver amp. Let's just say my Dad has bass now :)
 

outlamd

Member
Nov 30, 2000
79
0
0
I'm not trying to start a war here or anything, but were talking about basic physics here. An 18" woofer has a higher resistance to movement against the air surrounding it due to its physical surface area and a little something called inertia. This surface area also works to it's advantage because once the woofer is moving, it is pushing a larger volume of air. 18's can be nearly as fast and tight as smaller woofers, when they are coupled with very high power. If it were true that 18's were not somewhat (and were talking milliseconds here) slower than smaller drivers, then why would it be that most manufacturers do not use them. Definitive Tech uses them in the BP3000 series, but they are coupled with a 1000 watt amp!! MTX uses them also, but MTX never made the most accurate speakers I've ever heard. But they do go pretty damn loud. Most high end speaker manufacturers prefer to use an array of smaller drivers to retain speed and move the same volume of air as a large driver.
 

Workin'

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2000
5,309
0
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SH!T - tried to post nice long elegant argument, had one "bad word" in it, and the thing disappeared when I went back to change it!!!!

One thing I need explained by Mr. Physics - does the 1000 watt amp in the BP3000's add speed to their 18" woofers? NO WAY. You should probably rethink your argument.
 

DiamondFire13

Senior member
May 17, 2000
392
0
0
think of it this way:

More power to the voice coil = more magnetic force, thus moving the magnet that drives the cone back and forth faster. This is a simple concelpt covered in an basic physics course that covers solenoids (just like the voice coil of a speaker) and the magnetic field inside of the solenoid is a function of the wire, how much it is wrapped, the radius of the solenoid and the power flowing through the wires. The cone will more accurately follow the true output of the music. The more power that is supplied to the driver, the more accurate it will be, especially at high volumes. Imagine a curve as the driver goes from extended to a resting state and back. If the driver is required to return to it's normal position faster than the rubber surrouding will force it to, the electro-magnetic force of the voice coil acting upon the magnet of the speaker (attached to the cone) will pull it back to this state. Therefore more power definitely equals more speed, and when speed is talked about in refrence to speakers, it generally goes hand in hand with higher accuracy.

Paul
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
Speed:
The speed of the speaker is the frequency.
Tweeters are fast, sub slow. 20hz is 20hz is 20hz... If anyone tells you otherwise, they are mistaken.

Efficiency:
The larger the driver, the more efficient it is.
for example:

JL Audio sub specs
notice, the Efficiency (1W/1m) for the:
8W6 is 83.6
10W6 is 84.2
12W6 is 86.9
 

Lightingguy

Member
Nov 5, 2000
177
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0
Oh boy, now the debate about electromechanical devices begins!

As a long-term builder of speakers, and as a musician, I've seen this discussion go on and on. IMHO, you all have valid arguments. The specs are the specs, and engineering is engineering. But bear in mind that beauty of this sort is in the ear of the beholder. And in his/her room, installation, preferences in music, and many other factors.

My aunt Mildred still likes her color TV set for blue grass and purple skies (she redoes it after I tweak it). And her AM transistor radio is HER idea of high fidelity.

But speaker building is one of those things that's a mix of tech spec and art. Yes, 1000 watts blows away 50 any day. Until you manage to rule out subjective measures (which is REALLY what matters), you get only "Sounds better to ME."

There's MANY ways to skin this cat, folks. And all of them are good.

So build away...tweak...rebuild...research...build again...
(Hmm, starting to sound like my PC experience)
Till you get something you like (for the next 18 months or so...;-)

LGuy
 

DiamondFire13

Senior member
May 17, 2000
392
0
0
Speed and frequency are completely different things. A sub moves much much much farther than a tweeter, a tweeter makes changes in direction much more often, but the acctual speed that they are moving at just isnt that much different. That is like saying that it is it is faster to walk at 2 ft/s in a small circle than it is to walk at 2 ft/s in a big circle. They are the same speed, but the frequency is totally different.

In terms of speakers (come on audiophiles, back me up here) speed is not a function of the frequency that the driver is reproducing, it is a function of the power that the driver can take and how hard it is to move that driver. Naturally it is much harder to move a few cubic feet of air than it is to move a pico-liter. The speed, like I said before is dependent on how good of a speaker you have and how much power is there to move it. Think in milliseconds here, if the speaker is supposed to be in the out position, but there isnt enough power to get it there at the rate that the music demands, that frequency is out of the range of the speaker, and should be cut off by the x-over. But at low frequency's there is more air to move, thus it takes more power to move an 18" than it does to move a 10". It is possible for an 18" to be fast, it just has to have a very efficent design, be able to handle lots of power and have TONS of power going to it. Heck, theoreticaly, you could reproduce high frequencies with a woffer if you had enough power and the structure of the cone didnt break down. So with an infinitely stiff cone and super efficent voice coils and magnets, and about 30,000 perfetly clean watts, you could produce the whole spectrum of audio with a single perfect driver.

Back to real life:
it is way more economical for me to get a few good 8" drivers and a damn good amp, put them in a sealed box, than it is for me to get a really really good amp and a 15 or 18 incher, althoug it is possible to get perfectly clean sound out of an 18" it will be easier for me to get it out of my array of 8 inchers.

Thats all for now, I am looking for suggestions for 8" drivers that I can wire up to a 250 watt class AB subwoffer amplifier that will work well in a sealed box. I also need to know how to wire them so that the impedences work out right.

thanks alot,
I dont mean to argue,
Paul Hilgeman
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81
at a given frequency, for a given displacement, the speekers move at EXACTLY the same speed, no matter what the size is...be it 6" or 22"
 

DiamondFire13

Senior member
May 17, 2000
392
0
0
but it takes much more power to move the 22" because of the ammount of air that it has to move.

A tiny little electric field generated within the V.C. by a 10 watt amp is simply not going to move a 22 inch driver. thats all I was saying. It takes more power to accurately and cleanly move a big driver. Besides, I like the way that smaller bass drivers sound, like 8 or 10" as opposed to 12", 10's are even a stretch.

Paul
 

glen

Lifer
Apr 28, 2000
15,995
1
81


<< but it takes much more power to move the 22&quot; because of the ammount of air that it has to move. >>


Wrong. See my previous post on speaker efficiencies. Larger drivers ARE more efficient.




<< A tiny little electric field generated within the V.C. by a 10 watt amp is simply not going to move a 22 inch driver >>


Wrong. Larger speakers are MORE efficient. They need less power.




<< Besides, I like the way that smaller bass drivers sound, like 8 or 10&quot; as opposed to 12&quot;, 10's are even a stretch. >>


Then use smaller drivers. However, realive that you can make them play as low, or as loud as larger drivers, but not both. And they will never be as efficient, so you will need more amplifier power. Follow the link:
JL specs
notice, the Efficiency (1W/1m) for the:
8W6 is 83.6
10W6 is 84.2
12W6 is 86.9
This says that at one meter, one watt of power will generate an 83.6 db tone in the 8&quot; driver, 84.2db in the 10&quot;, and 86.3db in the 12&quot;. I understand that this is confusing because the larger driver is harder to move, but the air it displaces is also greater, and in the end, the larger driver is more efficient.
 

Wolfman35

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
407
0
0
From a purely mathmatical POV I agree with Glen but you have to factor in the venue (Room Size) to be objective about Woofer sizes vs. percieved tonality. You also have to consider the source of the low frequency. Synthesized bass (or guitar bass) requires alot different parameters than string bass or especially a Timpani Drum where the tonality changes as the skin contracts with resonance. This is part(LFE)of the OLD arguement about Home theater spkrs and Audiophile spkrs. That said .... I agree with the choice of smaller diameter woofers for a more accurate reproduction of musical bass &quot;In a Normal Room&quot;. While larger drivers WILL move more air ... the cones are just tooo heavy to reproduce vibrations that eminate from strings and skins (as opposed to electronically amplified original tones) If your source of reference is a Metallica concert you have an entirely different perspective of what sounds &quot;GOOD&quot; than someone who uses the symphony as thier point of reference. Back to the old Acoustic vs Amplified arguement. All things that must be factored in to a well constructed, purpose built, INDIVIDUAL speaker system.

My personal preferences (and my personal system) is to use small (I use Madisound 6.5&quot; Woofers @ 2/channel) woofers. In the live recording of the &quot;Eagles&quot; Hotel California you will hear the Timpani change tonality and properly decay. They will not (and should not) Shake the floor joists off the foundation. I use dual 12&quot; NHT 1251's for foundation shaking/concrete breaking and train rumbling in HT. Also I prefer NHT Super Zero's to the PSB Alpha's but thats a whole nother deal and also in a room thats 13.5 X 8 X 22 and purpose built as a listening/HT room. Just by coincidence (Yeah right) that same dimension in inches is the size of my D'oppolito Array that has twin Focal 5 1/4's and a Morel 1 1/4. Active crossover set at 100 Hz. to the 3 cf Madisound tower. Focals at 2400 Hz. to the Morel. Took me 4 years to get this right BTW. Compared to the HT/Reference system of the NHT Super Zero's and NHT 1251's, I think it sounds better but 4 years better??? Nope. It WAS fun tho. Now days I work at my computer 16 hrs/day and don't listen/watch movies much at all. My ACS 48's now sound pretty damn good to me. Once you take the Math and the Soul out of it .... it's all a matter of perspective.




 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,084
1
71
glen, the bigger drivers have to be more efficient since there is much more cone area coupling with the room, so they will usually be more efficient, but the issue of speed is still not solved.

Imagine the whole thing as a drag race between a Chevette and a Camaro.
Now, in the first 10 feet, the Chevette may win because it is a lighter car, but then the power of the Camaro just blows the Chevette's doors off.

The Chevette would be a 8incher, and the Camaro would be a 15incher (subwoofer)
Assuming equal power proportional to the cone area of each woofer, they will have an equal amount of punch. Now, since diamond is getting a 250watt amp, which will have a better punch?
The smaller driver has to get more punch, because it is smaller and has a lighter mass.
Not only that, 8's are easier to power than 15's.
 

Workin'

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2000
5,309
0
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I am astounded by the idiotic stuff I have read in these posts. glen generally is the only one without his head up his rear end.

More power = more speed = laughable BS Maybe in a car......

Obviously you are so clueless you don't even know you don't have a clue.

Frequency and speed are not directly and irrevocably unseparable = I hope you are joking

and on and on

Just build whatever you think you will like - you only have to please yourself. And since hardly anyone knows what good sound is really like, even if it hits them square in the head, no one will ever be any the wiser.
 

TomC25

Platinum Member
Oct 12, 1999
2,120
0
0
I have always wanted to know how a driver/speaker produces multiple frequencies at the same time.

How does a sub moving in and out 30 times a second making 30Hz also produce other frequencies?

How can a sub move in and out at different rates at the same time

A person cant really sing or talk in two different frequencies at the same time, right
 

Workin'

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2000
5,309
0
0


<< I have always wanted to know how a driver/speaker produces multiple frequencies at the same time. >>

It doesn't. It produces a single waveform that is the instantaneous sum of all the individual waveforms required to reproduce a given sound.
 

DiamondFire13

Senior member
May 17, 2000
392
0
0
Wow, I am sorry workin'

I am not sure you really know what is going on at all, I know alot about speakers, sound reproducion, physics and engineering. There are many who know more than me but it is a simple concept that any educated person could explain:

Do you know why you barely ever see 12&quot; or 18&quot; drivers in speaker systems(or if you do see them they are often in cars or on sh!tty home stero systems)? It is for 2 reasons, first of all, the cone itself has to be made out of an extremely light weight material that is very very stiff, if it isnt stiff enough, the cone itself will form it's own sub-vibrations, or standing waves on itself. This happens with ALL drivers, most you cant hear it though. On larger bass drivers it is much easier for this to happen, thus discoloring the sound. The only way to prevent this from happening is to use a very very rigid material to make the cone from (carbon fiber, aluminum, Ti) and these are often very expensive. I, along with many other people dont want to spend that much money. Smaller drivers can sound cleaner for less money and can produce just as much bass. The second reason that speakers like this arent used as often is because it takes a higher quality amp to drive them accurately. I know that you know somthing about speakers, and thus physics. The thing that makes a speaker sound 'Fast' as many people like to say, is the ability to perfeclty reproduce the waves that are present in music. Imagine a 60Hz Sine wave. This is the signal going to the amplifier. Then the amplifier adds power to the voltage signal and sends it to the bass driver. First, lets pretend this is a crappy 10W amp (trust me, I have heard some INCRDIBLE 10 W amps, but lets assume this one has a bad DC converter and small caps) sends the signal to the sub at Max volume, thus the peaks of the sine waves are +/- 10 watts. Now, the woofer has 3 forces acting upon it, first, there is the natural tendency to move back to it's resting posion, there is the resistance of air as it moves (the magnitude of this vector foce is equal to the radius squared times the speed that it is moving. The direction is equal to the direction that the power suplied by the amplifier is trying to move it), the last force on the speaker is the force that the voice coil (this is an electromagnetic foce) puts on the cone of the speaker, moving it in and out. Now, if there isnt enough force made by the voice coil (which is directly related to the power supplied by the amp), the cone of the speaker wont make it all of the way out to where it is supposed to be. The first thing that many people would think is that this just makes the speaker not as loud. It effects the accuracy too. As the cone is moving out, it of course has momentum. This momentum prevents it from moving back in as it is supposed to. If you look at a graph of a simple sine wave compared to the SPL of a speaker that is underpowered, you can see this happening, as a matter of fact you can see this happeneing on ANY speaker, it is a simple limitation of speakers that may never be solved.

Theoreticaly, you are all right, an infinitely lightweight cone, with no air resistance could be powered by a really low powered amp, and perfectly reproduce music. this is not theoretical, there IS air resistance that resist's the movement of the cone, and a bigger cone has more air resistance. There IS momentum, a bigger speaker has more momentum. It takes more power to overcome these and move the speaker as it should be moved. Therefore I am right, more power can make a speaker more accurately reproduce sound, to a point of course.

You are also right in the fact that a larger diameter speaker is more efficent, in how it moves air, when talking about speakers, efficency is usually different, it has to do with how well the speaker does at turning the power from the amp into sound. Some speakers are very wastefull, power is lost to many thing, heat, staning waves on the cone, and just poor design in general.

In real life though, everything is all about balance. Although a 18&quot; woffer has the ABILITY to make more bass, it takes more power. A 6-1/2&quot; uses less power but also is limited by it's size because it can only move a certain amount of air. Coversly, it is easier to make a 6-1/2 accurate than it is to make a 18&quot; accurate because of the power requirements.

It is all simple physics folks.

These are all of the reasons why I am going to go with 4 8&quot; drivers instead of a single 15&quot;. I will be able to make do with a 250 watt amp on the 8&quot; drivers and get very clean bass. The 18&quot; would make more bass on the same amp, but I can garuntee that it wouldnt be as clean. They would probably cost about the same ammount too.

To answer Tom's question:
If you were to have 2 sine waves of different frequencies playing on two different speakers, it would sound the same as the two sine waves going into one speaker. As the waves combine, you dont really hear any difference, you just hear both at once. I cant think of a good way to describe this, but it just works out that way. When you hear an orchestra, there are millions of different waves that are hitting your ear drum at once. you single ear drum (imagine it being like a speaker as it moves in and out, except it is foced in and out by waves and then generates electrical pulses, like a speaker in reverse, or like a mic.) I cant think of a good way to explain this, it just works. The speaker re-creates all of these millions of waves layered on top of eachother and your ear hears it just the same.

Well,
I hope that this can straighten you out, If you have questions about this, ask me or someone that knows alot about physics, and they will tell you that I am right.

Paul Hilgeman
 

maddmax

Senior member
Aug 24, 2000
351
0
0
Workin, I'll take that &quot;generally&quot; as not including me. How long have you studied and how many systems have you built?