Watercooling Questions

[HeaterCore]

Interesting -- I've been checking around, and it looks like the superiority of automotive heater cores is more an article of faith among old-school water coolers than a reality. All of the reviews showing them pasting custom units are from 2002 and earlier, but check the forums at ExtremeSystems or Pimprig and most folks still recommend the heater cores; but since HWLabs came out with the BIX series, and others came out with similar designs, there's very little performance difference between a good automotive unit (like the dual 120mm DD) and a high-end radiator in the same size-class, mainly because they're essentially the same design. The customs just come with case and fan mounts, and look a hell of a lot better.

-HC-

 

[HeaterCore]

Just read your post, and, all I can say is...Jesus, dude, do you work for HWLabs or what? (Quite possible, if we're playing the name game.) Calm down, Skipper.

I've had a positive experience with an inexpensive unit from a company, Danger Den, with an impeccable reputation; for information I relied on posts from various enthusiast forums, along with the rare head-to-head review (which in retrospect tend to pit the heater cores against older designs, usually cubes or the original Black Ice series). That's it.

Since you seem to think the name I chose for an online forum somehow makes me partial (what, like I'm a paid representative for the junkyard industry?) here are a few links I dug up from when I was doing my own research for my system. They're hardly scientific, and aren't intended to be. As for the comment that I keep bringing up cost, well, I'm going to keep bringing it up. People looking into watercooling, especially those who specifically mention a budget, should know that a dual-120mm bonneville unit ($35 at DangerDen) will perform on par with a BIX II that costs three times as much ($102), the tradeoff being in looks and ease of installation.

-HC-

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=37&threadid=1508777&enterthread=y
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1221167&enterthread=y&arctab=y
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...threadid=857472&enterthread=y&arctab=y
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=814158
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=42360&highlight=heater+core
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45552&highlight=heater+core
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=9852
http://www.overclockers.com/articles481/index07.asp: "The widely used heater cores are certainly the most cost effective solution, and often the best performing." (Old, probably somewhat outdated article.)

 

[HeaterCore]

Grr. Double post.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
Interesting -- I've been checking around, and it looks like the superiority of automotive heater cores is more an article of faith among old-school water coolers than a reality. All of the reviews showing them pasting custom units are from 2002 and earlier, but check the forums at ExtremeSystems or Pimprig and most folks still recommend the heater cores; but since HWLabs came out with the BIX series, and others came out with similar designs, there's very little performance difference between a good automotive unit (like the dual 120mm DD) and a high-end radiator in the same size-class, mainly because they're essentially the same design. The customs just come with case and fan mounts, and look a hell of a lot better.

-HC-

That's what I tried to tell you at first, but you blew it off. Of course they recommend cores, that's all they know. When you add the fact that some water people think that just because they slap water to their computers that it magically makes them Phd's in thermal physics, and you have a bunch of tight-asses No, they are not the same design in that they are designed for different environments AND purposes. Stop believing what you want to believe and look it up, "Heatercore."

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
Just read your post, and, all I can say is...Jesus, dude, do you work for HWLabs or what? (Quite possible, if we're playing the name game.) Calm down, Skipper.

This would be just like me asking you if you work at the local auto parts supply or junk yard. "Calm down, Skipper?" WTF do you think you're talking to, boy? Consider this concluded, before it gets nasty.

 

[HeaterCore]

With apologies to nrp and MisterChief....

"Calm down, Skipper?" WTF do you think you're talking to, boy?

Apparently someone who gets far too worked up over which particular hunk of finned copper is better than another. I hate to get snide like that on a forum, but after "YOUR OPINION," "Flash!," and "actually call yourself 'Heatercore?'" I figured a return volley was in order. I have no desire to see this turn into a flame war, both because I don't do that and because I've seen you help a lot of the folks here. The comment about HWLabs and your name was made in jest, and in reply to the unnecessary shots you've been taking at mine.

All I'm saying, and all I've been saying, is that there's no real performance delta between a quality automotive unit and a custom job. You note that I haven't found a recent review saying that they're better (here's about the closest you're going to get, and it ain't a review), but I haven't seen you offer any proof that they're worse. (The facts above are HWLabs' own PR clippings, and we don't have any comparable figures for a HC.)

After looking at two units in the same class, the BIX2 and the DD Dual HC, they're strikingly similar in design, right down to the fittings. Based on the numbers at DangerDen, the BIX has a frontal surface area of 56.5 sq.in. to the HC's 67.4, and a volume of 100 cu.in. to the HC's 135. On the safe assumption that, inch-for-inch, the BIX cools slightly better, they should provide roughly the same dissipation potential. They're both high-flow, so no difference there. The other major difference is in depth, 1.77" to 2", which tips the scales one way or the other depending on how many CFM you're blasting through there. Lower-CFM setups probably work better with the BIX because of the lower resistance.

Of course, that's all hypothetical. I'm still baffled as to why so many people recommend one or the other but nobody's done a real comparo.

-HC-

 

[HardWarrior]

I'm not "Skipper", or any other childish, BS-names you feel like dreaming up. Nothing I said to you warranted patronizing exortations to "calm down" or name-calling. We aren't buddies and you know nothing about me, except that I don't spend my time living in other people's opinions. Next time, read with comprehesion, and save your "jests" until you have a clue about the person you're dealing with.

Come now. Is ANYONE supposed to believe that it's a coincedence that you call yourself "Heatercore" while CONSTANTLY suggesting that heatercores are the ONLY option, under all conditions? Or even that you can act as a fair judge between the two options? Please.

By the numbers:

"After looking at two units in the same class, the BIX2 and the DD Dual HC, they're strikingly similar in design, right down to the fittings."

They are NOT all that similar in design. The BIX 2 uses flat-tubes and a dual-pass design with thin fans. The core uses round-tubes and a single-pass design with thick fans. Flat-tubes avoid laminar flow (water moving slower along the tube wall, with a high-speed stream moving along the the center). Dual-pass decreases resistance while at the same time keeps the coolant in the dissipater a bit longer. The fittings simply don't matter at all for purposes of THIS discussion.

"Based on the numbers at DangerDen, the BIX has a frontal surface area of 56.5 sq.in. to the HC's 67.4, and a volume of 100 cu.in. to the HC's 135. On the safe assumption that, inch-for-inch, the BIX cools slightly better, they should provide roughly the same dissipation potential."

AGAIN, frontal surface area is far less important than internal construction. Moreover, before you went to school on the subject , you "assumed" that a core was inherently superior, and you were wrong about that.

"They're both high-flow, so no difference there."

Wrong again. Cores are in general more restrictive. They can be this way because the automotive pumps they were designed to function with have much higher head-pressure. Also, they are NOT designed to dissipate heat, their operating function is to PICK UP heat.

"The other major difference is in depth, 1.77" to 2", which tips the scales one way or the other depending on how many CFM you're blasting through there. Lower-CFM setups probably work better with the BIX because of the lower resistance."

This much is true, but you have it backwards. A BIX is more efficient with a fan approaching 80-90CFM. It's hard to tell if you've never seen one, but a BIX's internal structure is VERY angular and dense, which makes high-airflow needed for good performance. This fact also makes them less desireable to anti-noise freaks.

"Of course, that's all hypothetical. I'm still baffled as to why so many people recommend one or the other but nobody's done a real comparo."

It's not ALL hypothetical, except in the case of heatercores. There are at least a few reviews on radiators. And notice, I never suggest one or the other. If asked by someone who wants to learn, I simply state what I currently know to be true of both and leave it up to the individual who's spending the money to make the final choice. If core manufactors took the time to quote the stats of their units, and they were superior to those of computer rads, I would have one. As it is, they don't seem to care, unless you put their products is cars.

 

[lotus503]

You two are going to need your own water cooling.

 

[HeaterCore]

Ya know, you extend the olive branch to some people....

Oh well. Just for the record:

Come now. Is ANYONE supposed to believe that it's a coincedence that you call yourself "Heatercore" while CONSTANTLY suggesting that heatercores are the ONLY option, under all conditions? Or even that you can act as a fair judge between the two options? Please.

Well, yeah. There's no heater core industry, no particular interest I could be serving. To tell the truth, I picked this name for the sole reason that my name on other forums had already been taken here. To prove the point, in my very first post in this thread I recommended looking into a dual Black Ice Micro setup, despite "CONSTANTLY suggesting that heatercores are the ONLY option."

Cores are in general more restrictive.

How do you explain the pressure drop results here?

You still haven't found a comparison of the BIX 2 and the DD Dual HC. Why should I take your word over that of a lot of other forum geeks, many of whom insist that the BIX is essentially a modded '86 Chevelle core?

Oh, BTW -- you can always trust that "Skipper" remark to separate out the really touchy folks. Feel free to try it yourself!

-HC-

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: HeaterCore
Ya know, you extend the olive branch to some people....

You're an ass. End of discussion.

 

[HeaterCore]

Well, I suppose it would have to be. I just can't help but wonder, though, if you even bothered to look at the core I was talking about the entire time. Despite your snide remarks above, the DD core is a dual-pass, flat-tube rad. They are essentially the same design, thought the BIX may have a slightly greater fin density. You had your basic facts wrong -- ones that could easily have been checked by simply looking at the image of the core on DD's site.

I had thought for awhile that perhaps you really knew a hell of a lot about the subject, and maybe you do know a good bit about the BIX series. But it really might be better to at least look into the facts of other arguments before snottily writing them off.

-HC-