Waterboarding

[Czar]

I'm going to bold every act which the US is clearly breaking, those debatable I will skip.

Remember article 2 when you read through this.

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.


Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: theblackbox
quick poll, how many people here have been tortured or seen actual torture, not some hollywood semblance or from a book. it's one thing to talk about the wrongs of the world from behind a computer in a comfortable chair, but it's another to have seen or been a victim of a violation of human rights.

Czar, every country may be a signature, but very few read what they were signing.

every what we call westernised nation is reading and understanding every single part of the decleration, except the US... why is that?

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Czar
the word game seems to be continuing, you just redefine the meaning of words to fit your agenda.. just to justify it for yourself because you cant comprihend that you are supporting such acts

I didn't change any definitions... I stated a cold fact. Are you trying to say that our behavior is worse than theirs?

then is waterboarding torture?
are all those in gitmo terrorists?

Of course it is. How many people die from water boarding? How many people survive beheadings? You're missing my point.

We sit here debating whether or not it's right to inflict pain and fear into someone in an effort to gain information.

Meanwhile, the people we are fighing don't even bother with the formality of pain, they just kill. Indiscriminately... They don't even care who they kill. They kill us, they kill their own, and when they have a really sensational death scene they post it on the internet and praise their god.

How can we win a war against an enemy like this when we are unwilling to sink to their level because of some arbitrary sense of honor? We can't. To boil it down to it's base, this is a gross-out contest. The other kid will happily eat the worm and we wont. We lose.

still not getting what torture is, expecialy if you are comparing beheddings to torture

 

[theblackbox]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox
quick poll, how many people here have been tortured or seen actual torture, not some hollywood semblance or from a book. it's one thing to talk about the wrongs of the world from behind a computer in a comfortable chair, but it's another to have seen or been a victim of a violation of human rights.

Czar, every country may be a signature, but very few read what they were signing.

every what we call westernised nation is reading and understanding every single part of the decleration, except the US... why is that?

like france read and understood it in the 50's in dealing with algeria? was it gen. jaques massu (french commander) that said torture was a cruel necessity? He later recanted saying that they could have done fine without torturing and in 2000 said that france should officialy admit it's policies and condemn them, some 50 years after the fact.

In the 70's the UK, that helped pen your UN document in the 40's said that highly coercive interrogation was necessary to confront the threat of the ira. I guess cnn wasn't there to give daily coverage on the activities the uk proliferated in the war against the ira.
in the 70's argentina found it necessary to use methods and thousands dissapeared, were thrown from helicopters into the ocean and tortured to death.

the us was one of 136 countries to ratify cat, even though it opposed the later options.

you can't preach morality. The rest of the world was torturing and maiming for centuries, the US was just late to that party.

 

[theblackbox]

even amnesty int has a more realistic outlook then the one you portray that only the US tortures...

article

"The campaign and fight to eradicate all forms of torture is as vital as ever. From 1997 to the middle of 2000 Amnesty International received reports of torture or ill-treatment in over 150 countries. People had died as a result of torture in over 80 countries."

pretty sure america isn't involved in all of those.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: theblackbox

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox
quick poll, how many people here have been tortured or seen actual torture, not some hollywood semblance or from a book. it's one thing to talk about the wrongs of the world from behind a computer in a comfortable chair, but it's another to have seen or been a victim of a violation of human rights.

Czar, every country may be a signature, but very few read what they were signing.

every what we call westernised nation is reading and understanding every single part of the decleration, except the US... why is that?

like france read and understood it in the 50's in dealing with algeria? was it gen. jaques massu (french commander) that said torture was a cruel necessity? He later recanted saying that they could have done fine without torturing and in 2000 said that france should officialy admit it's policies and condemn them, some 50 years after the fact.

In the 70's the UK, that helped pen your UN document in the 40's said that highly coercive interrogation was necessary to confront the threat of the ira. I guess cnn wasn't there to give daily coverage on the activities the uk proliferated in the war against the ira.
in the 70's argentina found it necessary to use methods and thousands dissapeared, were thrown from helicopters into the ocean and tortured to death.

the us was one of 136 countries to ratify cat, even though it opposed the later options.

you can't preach morality. The rest of the world was torturing and maiming for centuries, the US was just late to that party.

So .. this trend is a good thing?

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: theblackbox
even amnesty int has a more realistic outlook then the one you portray that only the US tortures...

article

"The campaign and fight to eradicate all forms of torture is as vital as ever. From 1997 to the middle of 2000 Amnesty International received reports of torture or ill-treatment in over 150 countries. People had died as a result of torture in over 80 countries."

pretty sure america isn't involved in all of those.

but the US is in a list with some bad company, usualy countries which the US condamn for the use of torture

 

[theblackbox]

looks like iceland knows a little about torture too. protecting human rights can be pretty tough...

In a February report, the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT) expressed concern during its visit to the main prison (Litla Hraun) in Reykjavik in 1998 that nearly all detainees still were being placed in solitary confinement while their cases were under investigation. While the average duration of solitary confinement was between 2 and 3 weeks, the CPT noted that in some cases, solitary confinement lasted up to 3 months. While in solitary confinement, prisoners cannot leave their cells, except for short periods of time to exercise alone or to use the showers, and are not allowed to listen to the radio, watch television, or receive visitors other than their lawyers and prison officials. In November the supervising doctor at Litla Hraun wrote to prison authorities, warning that the mental health of several prisoners awaiting trial on drug trafficking charges could be in danger due to the extended time that they were expected to spend in solitary confinement.

In a preliminary response to the CPT report on September 30, the Government argued that solitary confinement was absolutely necessary in some circumstances to keep suspects from tampering with witnesses, destroying evidence, or hindering the investigation. On the other hand, it conceded that "in the vast majority of cases" incarceration alone was sufficient to protect the integrity of witnesses and evidence. However, the Prison and Probation Administration's own statistics show that solitary confinement was the rule rather than the exception during the first 9 months of the year: more than 90 percent of the 87 persons taken into custody were put into solitary confinement at least initially.

With the closing of the Sudumuli remand prison in 1996, the Government passed a law in 1998 that allows pretrial detainees to be incarcerated with the general prison population. Some human rights monitors claim that this law is inconsistent with the country's obligations under the European Human Rights Convention and European prison rules issued by the Council of Europe. Construction of a new prison in Reykjavik is planned for these detainees.

Juveniles who are 15 years of age or older can be sentenced to prison terms, but the vast majority of juvenile offenders are given probation or suspended sentences, or agree to attend a treatment program instead of going to jail. In the rare instances when juvenile offenders are incarcerated, they must be confined with the general adult prison population due to the lack of a separate detention facility for juveniles. In its February report, the CPT stated that it was "very concerned" about the current situation and recommended that the Government take "immediate steps...to ensure that juvenile prisoners are held separately from adults."

granted, that info is from the 90's, but still relevant. iceland was key in defining standards and what torture was, and iceland isn't above inspection...

 

[theblackbox]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox
even amnesty int has a more realistic outlook then the one you portray that only the US tortures...

article

"The campaign and fight to eradicate all forms of torture is as vital as ever. From 1997 to the middle of 2000 Amnesty International received reports of torture or ill-treatment in over 150 countries. People had died as a result of torture in over 80 countries."

pretty sure america isn't involved in all of those.

but the US is in a list with some bad company, usualy countries which the US condamn for the use of torture

no denying, the US is not an angel, but the actions of a few don't dictate the actions of the populus. Most americans are like most decent people in the world, and want to get past these types of things and build a better world.

it's funny, i always thought when i was in the service overseas in the 80s that i'd rather be tortured then killed anyday. It seems war has this weird way about things. It's okay for people to kill each other, but not make them uncomfortable.

 

[Czar]

ofcorse it isnt, no country is

but right now we are talking torture, if you want to go into prison treatments for your own population then please start another thread, its a worthy discussion

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: theblackbox

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox
even amnesty int has a more realistic outlook then the one you portray that only the US tortures...

article

"The campaign and fight to eradicate all forms of torture is as vital as ever. From 1997 to the middle of 2000 Amnesty International received reports of torture or ill-treatment in over 150 countries. People had died as a result of torture in over 80 countries."

pretty sure america isn't involved in all of those.

but the US is in a list with some bad company, usualy countries which the US condamn for the use of torture

no denying, the US is not an angel, but the actions of a few don't dictate the actions of the populus. Most americans are like most decent people in the world, and want to get past these types of things and build a better world.

it's funny, i always thought when i was in the service overseas in the 80s that i'd rather be tortured then killed anyday. It seems war has this weird way about things. It's okay for people to kill each other, but not make them uncomfortable.

When it comes to the US torturing then its not actions of the few, we are talking about interigation policies set by Rumsfeld and others very high up, thats why this is so serius.

 

[theblackbox]

Originally posted by: Czar
ofcorse it isnt, no country is

but right now we are talking torture, if you want to go into prison treatments for your own population then please start another thread, its a worthy discussion

torture has many facets. amnesty international seems to think torture includes prison conditions. you defined torture fairly clearly:

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

regardless of home or abroad, CAT sees it as torture, as do many human rights organizations. The only difference is the rights being violated are those of the same countries citizens.

It's the same discussion, the CAT countries meet to discuss it home and abroad, and it applies in both cases.
Torture does not only apply to war.

 

[theblackbox]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox
even amnesty int has a more realistic outlook then the one you portray that only the US tortures...

article

"The campaign and fight to eradicate all forms of torture is as vital as ever. From 1997 to the middle of 2000 Amnesty International received reports of torture or ill-treatment in over 150 countries. People had died as a result of torture in over 80 countries."

pretty sure america isn't involved in all of those.

but the US is in a list with some bad company, usualy countries which the US condamn for the use of torture

no denying, the US is not an angel, but the actions of a few don't dictate the actions of the populus. Most americans are like most decent people in the world, and want to get past these types of things and build a better world.

it's funny, i always thought when i was in the service overseas in the 80s that i'd rather be tortured then killed anyday. It seems war has this weird way about things. It's okay for people to kill each other, but not make them uncomfortable.

When it comes to the US torturing then its not actions of the few, we are talking about interigation policies set by Rumsfeld and others very high up, thats why this is so serius.

but now these things are being brought to light, and the people responsible are starting to be held accountable.
as example, the nuremberg trials happened at the end of ww2, and four years to follow. The people that institute policy like that pay, it just takes time to sort it out. Thats what governments are good at, taking time to do stuff.

 

[Jhhnn]

Washington, Jefferson and the other founders of this country are probably turning in their graves as mindless moronic twits encourage and condone such behavior by the US govt.

Secret prisons, indefinite detention without charge, and torture are all presumptive of guilt of the accused, often used techniques by witch-hunters throughout history. The beauty of it all is that anybody will confess, just to stop the pain, thus proving the original charge, at least in the twaddle-brains of the populace the witch-hunt is designed to control in the first place...

Too bad that the armchair supporters of torture can't experience it firsthand, listen to themselves confess to actions they never committed... make up details to satisfy their tormentors... say anything, just to make it stop...

Then give us the usual sermon about "free, freedom and liberty", "protecting America from Terrarists" and all the usual blather...

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: theblackbox

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: theblackbox
even amnesty int has a more realistic outlook then the one you portray that only the US tortures...

article

"The campaign and fight to eradicate all forms of torture is as vital as ever. From 1997 to the middle of 2000 Amnesty International received reports of torture or ill-treatment in over 150 countries. People had died as a result of torture in over 80 countries."

pretty sure america isn't involved in all of those.

but the US is in a list with some bad company, usualy countries which the US condamn for the use of torture

no denying, the US is not an angel, but the actions of a few don't dictate the actions of the populus. Most americans are like most decent people in the world, and want to get past these types of things and build a better world.

it's funny, i always thought when i was in the service overseas in the 80s that i'd rather be tortured then killed anyday. It seems war has this weird way about things. It's okay for people to kill each other, but not make them uncomfortable.

When it comes to the US torturing then its not actions of the few, we are talking about interigation policies set by Rumsfeld and others very high up, thats why this is so serius.

but now these things are being brought to light, and the people responsible are starting to be held accountable.
as example, the nuremberg trials happened at the end of ww2, and four years to follow. The people that institute policy like that pay, it just takes time to sort it out. Thats what governments are good at, taking time to do stuff.

Accountability where the buck stops huh?

How much time has Kissinger spent in jail?

I rest my case.