Water vs Air

[entropy1982]

Hey guys, I have a P180 and have been looking at air cooling this whole time.

I haven't gotten any of my parts yet but they will be
X2 3800+
7800GTX
2X1gb of crucial value ram
some other stuff

Anyway, so i've thought about it and if i replace all 4 (3 included + 1 optional) fans in my case for about $10 each and get a Zalman 9500 which will be like 60-70ish, a cooler for my gpu will be like 30, i will be spending like 140 bucks on air cooling anyway on air cooling. Would it be worthit to just spend like 200 bucks on a self made watercooling unit and get better temps or is it not really possible to get anything good for around 200?

Sound is not much of a concern at all.

Is my thinking off here?

Also, will i be able to fit everything i need to in a P180 for water cooling?

 

[HardWarrior]

What do you mean by "self made watercooling?" If you WANT to go water (with retail parts), you can go with a CPU block for now and add a GPU block later. For $200 you can get the best parts available too.

 

[entropy1982]

i meant not a kit.... but to choose my own waterblock, radiator, etc

 

[entropy1982]

which parts would you recommend?

 

[HardWarrior]

You'll probably be better off with selected parts anyway. Do you have anything in mind so far?

 

[HardWarrior]

I'd go with a block like this for the CPU. As blocks go the price is good and it reviews well. For pump I'd pop for this. It's a bit more expensive, but considering that it's that heart of your loop, it's worth it. When it comes to a dissipator, you can choose between a made-for water-cooling rad or a core. For a rad I'd recommend this. The price isn't bad and you'll get soilid performance across the spectrum of potential fans. If you want to use a core, this would work fine and not be much of a pain to mount. With either choice for dissipator your case is going to need an unrestricted 120mm fan cut. Beyond these things you're going to need tubing, a T-fitting and some form of coolant additive. All in all, not TOO expensive.

 

[entropy1982]

What's the diff between a core and a Rad? Does one work better than the other? Would all this be fine in a p180 or would it be too tight? Finally what is an unrestrected 120mm fan cut do i need to actually cut some kinda hole in the case?

 

[JEDIYoda]

maybe water cooling is way over your head shall we say???

 

[entropy1982]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
maybe water cooling is way over your head shall we say???

umm... ok... a$$hole

sometimes i wonder why these people even bother to post, this is a forum to use the knowledge people already have so others don't have to go looking all over to find it, this forum would not be needed or useful at all if everyone went online and researched every single thing there is on google, but it's faster to just ask someone who already knows.

 

[mindwreck]

Wow short temper.. anyways
A core and radiator are partically the same thing except radiators usually are associated with ones made for watercooling and heatercores are associated with ones taken from cars to be used as radiators. Both of them are still used to cool down the water, but the heatercore provides similar performance to rad but at a much lower cost as they can be obtained at junk yards or autopart stores. These will require you to attach your own barbs,tho..
OR you can go to stores like dangerden, where you can buy the heatercore from them and they will attach the barbs for you.

Unrestrected fan cut.... i would guess that means theres no fan grill and its just a open hole.

edit: just saw your thread on Hardforums

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: mindwreckBoth of them are still used to cool down the water

Actually, that isn't true. Heatercores, as the name implies, are designed to pull thermal energy from the engine and transfer it TO the fluid moving through it. That's why the fins in a core are much thicker than those found in computer radiators. Cores also use round tubes as a transport lane as opposed to the flat tubes found in virtually all rads.

 

[mindwreck]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: mindwreckBoth of them are still used to cool down the water

Actually, that isn't true. Heatercores, as the name implies, are designed to pull thermal energy from the engine and transfer it TO the fluid moving through it. That's why the fins in a core are much thicker than those found in computer radiators. Cores also use round tubes as a transport lane as opposed to the flat tubes found in virtually all rads.

dude I'm explaining the difference in a watercooling point of view..
some heatercores use flat tubes. They're mainly used to heat the interior of a car.

edit: car point of view. the heatercore is mount inside the car and has a coolant or liquid that flows through it from the engine. This is where the warm air comes from when you turn on the heat.

 

[gotensan01]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
I'd go with a block like this for the CPU. As blocks go the price is good and it reviews well. For pump I'd pop for this. It's a bit more expensive, but considering that it's that heart of your loop, it's worth it. When it comes to a dissipator, you can choose between a made-for water-cooling rad or a core. For a rad I'd recommend this. The price isn't bad and you'll get soilid performance across the spectrum of potential fans. If you want to use a core, this would work fine and not be much of a pain to mount. With either choice for dissipator your case is going to need an unrestricted 120mm fan cut. Beyond these things you're going to need tubing, a T-fitting and some form of coolant additive. All in all, not TOO expensive.

HardWarrior is the $h|t He helped me out a lot when I first started watercooling. The setup he recommends here is definitely great.

When I first watercooled, I went the cheaper route and bought a bunch of used parts. It turned out okay but I went through more trouble. I'd say if you plan on watercooling, be ready to spend the money on decent parts.

On a side note, I stopped watercooling. When I took my comp to school, I didn't plug the pump power in all the way. Since my watercooling setup was all internal, I didn't notice the water wasn't pumping. It was really stupid of me not to check...but I soon found out I didn't plug the pump in when my $300 video card burned up. Now I'm content with air cooling

EDIT: spelling

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: mindwreck

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: mindwreckBoth of them are still used to cool down the water

Actually, that isn't true. Heatercores, as the name implies, are designed to pull thermal energy from the engine and transfer it TO the fluid moving through it. That's why the fins in a core are much thicker than those found in computer radiators. Cores also use round tubes as a transport lane as opposed to the flat tubes found in virtually all rads.

dude I'm explaining the difference in a watercooling point of view..
some heatercores use flat tubes. They're mainly used to heat the interior of a car.

edit: car point of view. the heatercore is mount inside the car and has a coolant or liquid that flows through it from the engine. This is where the warm air comes from when you turn on the heat.

Don't get your knickers in a twist with me, "dude." I said NOTHING that could be remotely construed as antaganistic or a slight to your ego. The LAST thing I want is another stupid-ass argument in this forum because some people can't be wrong, even when the are. Yes, some cores are flat tube, just like some birds don't fly. The point is that you DO NOT see flat tube cores used in the vast majority of water-coolers, which makes the distinction moot.

Both of them are still used to cool down the water.

This statement is wrong, plain and simple, and it's ALL I responded to.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: gotensan01

HardWarrior is the $h|t He helped me out a lot when I first started watercooling. The setup he recommends here is definitely great.

Wow, thanks gotensan?

 

[Elfear]

I built my kit for just under $200 and it included a GPU block. I posted the results here.

Hardwarrior has some very good recommendations. They will provide you with excellent cooling but don't cost near as much as the top-of-the-line stuff. If you decide to watercool the GPU too than I'd probably step up to a dual 120mm fan core/rad. I'm not familiar with the P180 case (not sure what interior dimensions are) but even if you had to mount it to the exterior of the case it's worth the effort.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Elfear
I built my kit for just under $200 and it included a GPU block. I posted the results here.

Very impressive. :thumbsup:

 

[Greenman]

Ok, now I'm confused. Regardless of design, don?t both parts serve the same purpose? They exchange heat from whatever coolant is inside them to the surrounding air. I would think that a radiator made for a computer would be more efficient, though I don?t have any evidence of that. But since heater cores are designed to work under higher pressure, and with a much larger supply of hotter water, it just seems like efficient heat transfer wouldn?t be a big issue for the engineers that designed it.

Edit: Whatever you do, buy good parts. I "saved" 20 bux on a pump that found a new place to leak every week. I also "saved" 15 on fans that were "just as good" as Panaflows and sounded like a 747 at takeoff. The really sad part is that I know better than that, quility is the best value.

 

[Unkno]

well, if you haven't decided yet...get water if you really want that extra boost in overclocking and lower temps, get air if you don't want to worry about the risks involving water+electronics. There is always a risk no matter how great the quality and installation is.

 

[mindwreck]

Originally posted by: Greenman
Ok, now I'm confused. Regardless of design, don?t both parts serve the same purpose? They exchange heat from whatever coolant is inside them to the surrounding air. I would think that a radiator made for a computer would be more efficient, though I don?t have any evidence of that. But since heater cores are designed to work under higher pressure, and with a much larger supply of hotter water, it just seems like efficient heat transfer wouldn?t be a big issue for the engineers that designed it.

exactly, they are both used to cool the water in your watercooling setup (still do not know why hardwarrior disagreeds, but whatever...). Nice temps elfear. I'm also using that bonneville heatcore. Its works great and is extremely cheap.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Greenman
Ok, now I'm confused. Regardless of design, don?t both parts serve the same purpose? They exchange heat from whatever coolant is inside them to the surrounding air. I would think that a radiator made for a computer would be more efficient, though I don?t have any evidence of that. But since heater cores are designed to work under higher pressure, and with a much larger supply of hotter water, it just seems like efficient heat transfer wouldn?t be a big issue for the engineers that designed it.

Not really, though both are suitable. Made-for-computer rads are designed to pull heat from the coolant, cores are made to pick up heat, hold it and transfer thermal energy to the fluid medium. Rads tend to be based on dual-pass flat tubes that "flatten" the coolant moving through them as much as possible to avoid a warm, center "core" of water (laminar flow) that doesn't get dissipated very well. Engines are so much hotter that this design quirk isn't needed to heat the coolant passing through a core. Fins in rads are usually much more delicate, so it's easier to blow warm air air from them.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: mindwreck(still do not know why hardwarrior disagreeds, but whatever...).

You were wrong. I explained why and how, but I guess that doesn't matter.

 

[mindwreck]

please provide some evidence that a heatercores

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

are made to pick up heat, hold it and transfer thermal energy to the fluid medium.

I don't get you because your making the heatercore sound like a waterblock. That specific thing is used to pick heat up from the cpu. Ive never seen a heatercore used to pick up heat.

Heres a basic info that supports my idea of a heatercore, which is, that it is a small radiator.
Text
Text2

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: mindwreck
please provide some evidence that a heatercores

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

are made to pick up heat, hold it and transfer thermal energy to the fluid medium.

I don't get you because your making the heatercore sound like a waterblock. That specific thing is used to pick heat up from the cpu. Ive never seen a heatercore used to pick up heat.

Heres a basic info that supports my idea of a heatercore, which is, that it is a small radiator.
Text
Text2

You don't get me, yet you said yourself that a core pulls heat from and engine and transfers it to a liguid medium with the idea of heating the inside of the car. Isn't a rad designed to do just the opposite? The people who design these things aren't stupid, and use tricks maximize what their parts are destined to do. Also, your examples are specious. We're talking about the difference between the two components as they exist in water-cooling, not cars.

 

[mindwreck]

edit: car point of view. the heatercore is mount inside the car and has a coolant or liquid that flows through it from the engine. This is where the warm air comes from when you turn on the heat.

my post from awhile back
no where did i state that it pulls heat and transfers it to a liquid medium.

the heatercore is located in the cabin(usually under the dashboard) and a fan blows on it so warm air is exhasted inside the car(thus your warm air). essentially like a radiator, warm liquid from engine flows through it, fan blows on it, the water is cooled and warm air comes out of it heatercore/ radiator.

thats what you want in a watercooling system. warm water from the cpu flows through it, fans blow on it to remove the heat, warm air comes out.
sign.. this is getting tiring

examples in watercooling..
heater cores used in watercooling systems to cool the water
heres one similar to the one you recommended to the OP for his system, except this one doesn't include the shroud
in the desciption it is described as a heatercore.
Text

as you can see heatercores ARE used to cool the water in the system. so are radiators. These 2 names are thrown around loosely, but they serve the same purpose, to cool down the water in a WC system.