Water softener and purifier for my parent's house.

[fuzzybabybunny]

My parents have a lot of issues with the water in their house.

The water in the hot water tank is black / dark green.

The toilet tanks (not the bowls) have a layer of dark brown on the sides.

The hot water jacuzzi water has a greenish tint.

We definitely have hard water.

The city water reports for their area don't say anything about biological contaminants, but the report they get shows everything as being fine.

But a once a year report or even a spot report from a 3rd party lab won't say anything because the water quality will actually change if, say, they've had a rainstorm. After a rainstorm the water will noticeably have a darker color. So even if a report shows the the quality is fine, it's not consistent.

***

Not sure what to do about this. They just had a Puronics salesperson in the house and he gave his pitch to them.

http://www.puronics.com/products/2/Products.html

What they like about the Puronics is that it's a two-stage filtration system. The water goes through a top charcoal layer to move biologicals and chemicals, and then goes through the standard water softening process. And it flushes itself every week or so with a reverse flush with brine.

The top of the line unit costs $4,000 installed with a lifetime warranty.

I've been able to find other water softening units for $500, but that doesn't include installation, charcoal layer for biological/chemical filtration, and self-flushing.

Based on the condition of the water, what does ATOT recommend? They want to go for a Puronics unit mainly for the ease and the guaranteed consistent water quality, but are open to alternatives if it means saving money.

 

[Greenman]

Bottled drinking water, add some chlorine to the spa and ignore the toilet.

 

[God Mode]

Go for the 4k unit. Your skin will feel great and look great.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Go for the 4k unit. Your skin will feel great and look great.

Ehhh... This is on a person by person basis. The salesperson did a soap test. Had us lather both hands. One hand rinsed with regular water (felt dry) and the other with the treated water (felt slippery). My parents HATED the slippery feeling because it felt like the soap had not rinsed off.

And after reading about how soap works, it turns out that the soap had NOT rinsed off.

 

[bolomite]

A softener works by replacing calcium/magnesium/iron (the 'hard' minerals in natural water) with sodium ions. Without a softener, you would get mineral buildup on fixtures, seen as white or gray residue. Blue or green staining is likely due to issues other than hard water (maybe corrosion?)

As far as the slick/slippery feel after rinsing off soap, it's not as if the sensation persists, it's gone as soon as you dry off. Overall, soft water leaves skin and hair feeling cleaner and smoother.

 

[deadlyapp]

You can buy a whole house charcoal filter for only a few hundred bucks and a top of the line softener for 800 or so. The high end softeners will self flush and everything, all you have to do is top off the salt or potassium every so often.

Provided they already have an easy place to tap into with a drain nearby, the installation shouldn't cost much either. The big box retailers offer about $130 installation for each item, but you have to already have the tap and bypass valve installed.

Frankly you'd have to be stupid to buy something from culligan/puronics/etc.

 

[Howard]

A softener works by replacing calcium/magnesium/iron (the 'hard' minerals in natural water) with sodium ions. Without a softener, you would get mineral buildup on fixtures, seen as white or gray residue. Blue or green staining is likely due to issues other than hard water (maybe corrosion?)

As far as the slick/slippery feel after rinsing off soap, it's not as if the sensation persists, it's gone as soon as you dry off. Overall, soft water leaves skin and hair feeling cleaner and smoother.

The slipperiness is still the soap. If you wash your hands for a long time you will see that the feeling disappears.

 

[Jumpem]

Get a custom installed dual tank water softener. Don't get one of the all-in-one units from a hardware store. Mine was about $1,700 if I remember. Some houses also require an iron filter here.

 

[LegendKiller]

I wouldn't get the combo. I looked at the same system and it seemed to be ripoff to me. The maintenance on the filter requires too much fidgeting with the system. I would rather buy in-line charcoal whole-house filters.

As far as the softener, just go with somebody local that sells them. A 64k grain system should only cost ~1.1-1.5k, installed. This will have a Fleck or Clack control valve, a big brine tank and will self-flush. That should handle the load you need.

I live in MN and we have pretty hard water. Without that system I have hard water stains around my kitchen sink (unsoftened line) and a few other places. Getting black granite clean from hard water stains is a bitch.

Just make sure they set the system up correctly for the hardness. I need to have our guys back out again to adjust since I am getting a few days of unsoftened water now.

 

[sdifox]

check other places like sears. That price seems pretty high.

 

[LegendKiller]

check other places like sears. That price seems pretty high.

You're joking, right?

Sears "Kenmore" systems are nothing more than rebrands of the same low-quality all-in one systems made by one manufacturer. The all-in-ones are cheaply (poorly) made and the all-in-one means that if the brine tank has a problem, you replace the whole unit. They are harder to service and do not last nearly as long. The control valves suck. People also complain about corrosion due to the salt being next to the control valve. That same exact system is sold in HD, Lowes, Costco and other places.

That is too expensive. The company I went through, Water Doctors in Minneapolis, has a all-in one system I could have purchased for ~$1,800, installed. They use a Fleck valve, an industry standard dual-tank with industry standard resin.

Anything above that is a waste of money. Culligan = waste of money. Kinetico = waste of money.

This is simple physics here, you can't suddenly create better ion transference out of thin air.

 

[Micrornd]

The slipperiness is still the soap. If you wash your hands for a long time you will see that the feeling disappears.

Not exactly.

The slipperiness is the result of the surfactants that were in the soap being better deposited onto the skin by the "softer" water.
The mechanical action (friction) of repeated hand washing removes them.
The soap is/was long gone.
That's the reason repeated washings produce no lather.
And also why the skin "feels" softer and smoother to the touch immediately after drying, the surfactants also "react" with the oils in the skin to decrease their surface tension also to some extent, allowing them to essentially "spread out" better.

Surfactants make water "wetter" decreasing it's surface tension (and this also increases it's heat transfer ability, as the car guys know).
Most modern surfactants produce no noticeable foam (lather) so when "needed", this is produced by other additives to soap and detergents.
(Studies have shown repeatedly that soaps and detergents that don't lather or foam are perceived as not cleaning, when it most cases they clean as least as good or better )
Surfactants are used in ointments, creams, makeup , etc. also to increase spreadability (the skin oil thing again)

The surfactants are the reason "soft" water requires less soap or detergent to accomplish the same cleaning compared to using "hard" water, you simply need less because the percentage of surfactants used (of the volume available) is greater with "soft" water because there are less other particles (charged or uncharged) in "soft" water that the surfactant can react with.

So, no, you're not feeling the soap and the reason folks claim their skin is softer with "soft" water, is the surfactants help natural skin oils spread slightly better, but mostly because it takes much less soap and detergent to achieve the same level of clean, so the harsh drying effect of soaps on the skin is lessened.

Actually the same holds true for clothing, especially "delicates". Those "special for delicates" products have a higher percentage of surfactants in them to allow them to work better with less mechanical action.

Add more surfactants to regular liquid detergents, decrease the volume and "voila", you have the basis for "concentrated liquid" detergents.
But don't just add more surfactants to the "regular" powdered (or regular liquid) detergents in standard packaging or you won't need as much (or sell as much)

 

[Micrornd]

My parents have a lot of issues with the water in their house.

The water in the hot water tank is black / dark green.

The toilet tanks (not the bowls) have a layer of dark brown on the sides.

The hot water jacuzzi water has a greenish tint.

We definitely have hard water.

You're first step should be to drain and flush the water heater at least 3 times to get it as clean as possible.
After the water heater is done and up to temp, take samples from the kitchen tap (let it run for 1 min, and set for cold water only) to your local independent water quality lab for a full analysis. (yellow pages or ask a well drilling contractor)
Once you know what is in the water, them you can decide on how to treat it.

Water softeners are not designed to remove iron and do so only as a byproduct of softening.
You will need a good quality iron filter/remover, based on the color in the water heater.
You may also find that some of the water supply lines in house may need replacing, but I doubt it.
Green in the Jacuzzi is the same cause as green in a pool, sunlight and lack of sustained chlorine level = algae.

How large a water softener you need is based on the "hardness" of the water and bigger is not really better as far as efficiency of these things goes. (the same efficiency thing holds true for iron filters)

Cheap AIO units work just fine and have a good 20 year life if maintained properly. There are a few parts in the control head that need cleaned regularly (and when they wear out, replaced) as pointed out in all the AIO units owner's manuals I have seen, but of course no one bothers to do this and blames failure on "cheapness".

Brine tanks don't wear out or become damaged, by salt or brine and are not a concern in AIOs. (unless of course you run into them in the garage or some such nonsense)

All ion-exchange water softeners will eventually have to have their resin changed, as it does "wear" out.
In many cases in the high dollar units it will cost as much as a complete AIO.

Higher dollar units operate on the exact same principles as AIOs, they are simply made to take more abuse and with less maintenance.
They are not any more efficient.

You have to decide what is worth more to you in the long run your time, doing the needed regular maintenance on an AIO and adding salt or your money, not doing anything, but adding salt with a high dollar unit.

Either way, the water will taste very slightly different, so be prepared for that, some folks are more sensitive than others to the very slight change in pH any water softener will produce.