Water fuel.

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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Googer
Here is the company in question.
http://hytechapps.com/

And a video is posted on his site. He does sell working units to construction workers and his office is about a half an hour from me, prehaps I can take a visit with a video camera to prove it to all of you?
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/generator
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/hhos <--- For the car (verified by Fox news- separate video)
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/propane


From their website:
?The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it.?

? Chinese Proverb
Sorry, but this site should never be posted in HT. Their marketing BS on their 'science' page is laughable. For example:
Aquygen? Gas does not follow the fundamental PVT law for gases.
First, all gases follow the ideal gas constitutive model at low pressures (and I assume that's what he means by 'PVT law', though PV=RT would be more clear). All of them. This is because it's derived from the kinetic theory of gases at the low pressure limit. All gases will deviate from this behavior at higher temperatures and pressures. How much deviation occurs depends on the ratio of T and P to the critical T and P for the substance as dicated by another constitutive relation, often called 'the law of corresponding states'. The rest of the claims on that page are equally specious, but hopefully you get the point.
 

DanTMWTMP

Lifer
Oct 7, 2001
15,908
19
81
Originally posted by: Mark R
I don't think that there's any doubt that the technology exists. There's nothing clever about building an electrolyser to produce H2 & O2. There is a lot of cleverness in doing it efficiently, cheaply and in a compact form.

The Aquygen generator appears simply to be a H2/O2 mixture generator - again nothing special. This type of equipment has been used for decades for firing oxy-hydrogen torches. We had one of these torches back at high-school 15 years ago for doing fine metalwork/silverwork. The only difference was that the torch I used at school, enriched the H2/O2 mixture with methyl-ethyl ketone.

Oxy-hydrogen torches are old technology - as old, if not older than oxy-acetylene. So why are they so uncommon that noone knows about them. The answer is that they are crap. The combustion of hydrogen produces water vapour - and the water vapour withdraws considerable enthalpy from the flame in its latent heat of vaporization. Additionally, the flame is of very low density. So even though the flame temperature is very high (higher than OxyAc) the cutting/welding performance is terrible because the steam carries all the heat off.

People desperately trying to sell OH torches, show remarkable videos of how the flame is 'cold' but suddenly becomes 'hot' on contact with a material. It's an interesting property, but doesn't make the torch particularly useful. The higher density and low water content of an OA flame makes it far more effective for welding and cutting. Additionally, the high hydrogen content of an OH flame causes serious problems with welds - hydrogen is incorporated into the molten metal and causes serious embrittlement.

Most practical OH torches enrich the gas with MEK (as above) or ethanol/methanol - this adds carbon to the flame which drastically improves the flame density and reduces the heat loss through water vapour. It also reduces the point flame temperature which can be uncontrollably high in pure OH.

--

What about the car?

It's long been recognised that hydrogen is an excellent fuel for ICEs. It burns quickly and cleanly and has a ridiculously high octane rating as well as a very wide range of mixtures at which it will burn. (Unlike gasoline, where a relatively precise mixture is required for decent performance).

However, building a hydrogen ICE is one thing - but hydrogen also benefits gas ICEs. Adding a trace of hydrogen to the air/gas mixture has a number of benefits.

1) The hydrogen increases the speed at which the flame propagates leading to faster and more even ignition of the mixture
2) Hydrogen is a very potent octane booster, allowing more aggressive timings for better performance and fuel economy and/or an engine design with higher compression ratio.

This is a well known property of hydrogen in ICEs. It is under active research by many university groups and all the major car manufacturers.

For one reason or other, most of the researchers are working on deriving the hydrogen from gasoline, rather than water. While I'm not entirely familar with the reasons why - some I've come across include:
1) An electrolysis system needs large quantities of high purity distilled water, as it will be contaminated by tap water
2) Electrolysis systems have traditionally been inefficient, bulky and needed large quantities of precious metals for the electrodes.
3) Direct reformation of gasoline for hydrogen is very efficient - considerably more so, than burning fuel to produce electricity to electrolyse water.



wow very good post. thanks! can you also provide links for further info? Of course, I can just search google, but someone who actually knows something about it can probably link me with a more credible site.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: Mark R
I don't think that there's any doubt that the technology exists. There's nothing clever about building an electrolyser to produce H2 & O2. There is a lot of cleverness in doing it efficiently, cheaply and in a compact form.

The Aquygen generator appears simply to be a H2/O2 mixture generator - again nothing special. This type of equipment has been used for decades for firing oxy-hydrogen torches. We had one of these torches back at high-school 15 years ago for doing fine metalwork/silverwork. The only difference was that the torch I used at school, enriched the H2/O2 mixture with methyl-ethyl ketone.

Oxy-hydrogen torches are old technology - as old, if not older than oxy-acetylene. So why are they so uncommon that noone knows about them. The answer is that they are crap. The combustion of hydrogen produces water vapour - and the water vapour withdraws considerable enthalpy from the flame in its latent heat of vaporization. Additionally, the flame is of very low density. So even though the flame temperature is very high (higher than OxyAc) the cutting/welding performance is terrible because the steam carries all the heat off.

People desperately trying to sell OH torches, show remarkable videos of how the flame is 'cold' but suddenly becomes 'hot' on contact with a material. It's an interesting property, but doesn't make the torch particularly useful. The higher density and low water content of an OA flame makes it far more effective for welding and cutting. Additionally, the high hydrogen content of an OH flame causes serious problems with welds - hydrogen is incorporated into the molten metal and causes serious embrittlement.

Most practical OH torches enrich the gas with MEK (as above) or ethanol/methanol - this adds carbon to the flame which drastically improves the flame density and reduces the heat loss through water vapour. It also reduces the point flame temperature which can be uncontrollably high in pure OH.

--

What about the car?

It's long been recognised that hydrogen is an excellent fuel for ICEs. It burns quickly and cleanly and has a ridiculously high octane rating as well as a very wide range of mixtures at which it will burn. (Unlike gasoline, where a relatively precise mixture is required for decent performance).

However, building a hydrogen ICE is one thing - but hydrogen also benefits gas ICEs. Adding a trace of hydrogen to the air/gas mixture has a number of benefits.

1) The hydrogen increases the speed at which the flame propagates leading to faster and more even ignition of the mixture
2) Hydrogen is a very potent octane booster, allowing more aggressive timings for better performance and fuel economy and/or an engine design with higher compression ratio.

This is a well known property of hydrogen in ICEs. It is under active research by many university groups and all the major car manufacturers.

For one reason or other, most of the researchers are working on deriving the hydrogen from gasoline, rather than water. While I'm not entirely familar with the reasons why - some I've come across include:
1) An electrolysis system needs large quantities of high purity distilled water, as it will be contaminated by tap water
2) Electrolysis systems have traditionally been inefficient, bulky and needed large quantities of precious metals for the electrodes.
3) Direct reformation of gasoline for hydrogen is very efficient - considerably more so, than burning fuel to produce electricity to electrolyse water.

The big problem with hydrogen in an ICE isn't the actuall hydrogen in the ICE. It's the "how to get hydrogen" problem. We need two things to happen:

1. A way to generate the hydrogen with as much efficiency and little energy lost as possible. The classic electrolysis water ain't it.
2. A way to generate the energy needed for #1 that produces little pollution. The predominately coal based energy grid of the US ain't it.

If there are clever ways to do #1 such as catalyst based methods etc.. and a clever way to do #2 such as nuclear power or renewable energy then we could have a winner. Otherwise the hydrogen ICE car would be worse than having highways full of 19th century steam locomotives.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
I would have to wonder, wouldn't a combustion turbine be more efficient than an ICE for burning hydrogen?
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: BrownTown
I would have to wonder, wouldn't a combustion turbine be more efficient than an ICE for burning hydrogen?

Hm. Not really sure. turbines are traditionally terrible at fuel efficiency. They are mostly used for their power to weight ratio.

The gains from hydrogen would have to be pretty great to offset the deficiencies of the turbine.