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Water cooling

Mrvile

Mrvile

Lifer
Ok, to start off, I customized a little watercooling kit at Dangerden's website, and it went a little over my budget, and I don't know which to downgrade. So I want you guys to rate these items from most to least important: CPU Block, Radiator, Pump, Resevoir. Its probably gonna be the pump (I got the cheapest resevoir anyway), but I want some confirmation first.

So far, here's my kit:

Dangerden TDX CPU block, 1/2 inch fitting
Black Ice Xtreme radiator, can be changed to Black Ice Pro, which is 15 dollars cheaper
Hydor L35 pump, can be changed to L20, which is 15 dollars cheaper
Dangerden HDPE Resevoir
7 of UV green 1/2 inch tubing (they all cost the same so, what the hell)
AS5 thermal paste

Also, how does one go about filling the system (100% distilled water)? I have no idea how this is done. Thanks.
 
Unless you have pretty hard water, there's no real reason tap water shouldn't work. The only concern there is that salts in the water can cause fouling on heat transfer surfaces or in the pump.

I'm not sure what the exact components are, but if you throw me a link I can tell you whether the upgraded pump and radiator are worthwhile.
 
Heh... I just got this... premixed plus its UV reactive.

You could get away without a resevoir if you use a "T fitting"... of course it would be easier to bleed and refill the system with a reservoir.

 
First, read this sweet two-part article about the properties of and chemistry of coolant: Part 1 and Part 2.

As for where to cut costs, that's a tough choice because anything you do will cut performance. All of these parts are very important. If you really want to get bang-for-buck, ditch those radiators and head down to the local autoparts store and pick up a heatercore (which is virtually identical to the BlackIce rads, only less pretty). You'll have to do a little modification and add hose barbs, however. Have desired dimentions in mind and simply ask to look through the books to find the cheapest unit with those dimentions. I did this and picked up a 6"x12"x2" radiator for $17 and then added the barbs for a few bucks. Similar or superior performance at half the price. A quick coat of spraypaint on the perimiter made it look acceptable.
 
Originally posted by: Mrvile
Ok Cyclowiz here are the links:

Dangerden TDX CPU block

Black Ice Xtreme radiator

Black Ice Pro radiator

Hydor L35 pump

Hydor L25 pump (there was a typo, it's the L25, not the L20)

Resevoir

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I don't have time to do anything with it tonight, but I'll tell you some basic things of heat transfer to tide you over until tomorrow. 😛

Two things that you're altering by changing the pump and radiatior are the fluid velocity and surface area for heat transfer. The amount of heat transfer is roughly proportional to the surface area available. The velocity is of a more complex form, but as velocity increases, heat transfer will also increase. When you're shopping for a pump, the velocity manifests itself as the volumetric flowrate (m^3/s, ft^3/s) or power. The higher the power of the pump, the more energy it imparts on the fluid and, therefore, the higher the velocity will be. You can also achieve this by using smaller diameter tubes, but there are tradeoffs. Anyway, I've been out at the bars for a few hours and now I have to grade papers (and yes, it's my spring break!) so I better get to it! I'll give you some real answers tomorrow. 😛
 
Ok, I mean I could always get 3/8 inch tubes, would that help? I figured bigger tubes = more water going through tubes which = more velocity (I didn't take water pressure or anything into consideration).
 
Originally posted by: Mrvile
Ok, to start off, I customized a little watercooling kit at Dangerden's website, and it went a little over my budget, and I don't know which to downgrade. So I want you guys to rate these items from most to least important: CPU Block, Radiator, Pump, Resevoir. Its probably gonna be the pump (I got the cheapest resevoir anyway), but I want some confirmation first.

So far, here's my kit:

Dangerden TDX CPU block, 1/2 inch fitting
Black Ice Xtreme radiator, can be changed to Black Ice Pro, which is 15 dollars cheaper
Hydor L35 pump, can be changed to L20, which is 15 dollars cheaper
Dangerden HDPE Resevoir
7 of UV green 1/2 inch tubing (they all cost the same so, what the hell)
AS5 thermal paste

Also, how does one go about filling the system (100% distilled water)? I have no idea how this is done. Thanks.
Click to expand...

1. You can get a Maze 4 acetal block
2. The BIP won't hurt your performance all that much
3. Stay with the L35 if you can, the L20 is very weak
4. You can save here by going with a T-line, but a res just makes filling and bleeding MUCH easier
5. AS5 is worth the extra money
6. With a T-line or a res all you need to do is get a funnel and pour away
7. Your coolant mixture MUST include a biocide, adding a pH buffer of some type will avoid you having to flush your loop a lot and is something you should consider as well

 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Unless you have pretty hard water, there's no real reason tap water shouldn't work. The only concern there is that salts in the water can cause fouling on heat transfer surfaces or in the pump.
Click to expand...

Minerals, bacteria, spora, extreme conductivity and questionable pH makes tap water one of the worst choices possible for a coolant base. Distilled, ozonated (or UV treated) water is a $1.50 a bottle.

Edit: Be careful, Mrvile. There's some questionable advice in this thread. Don't forget to look into this carefully before you buy anything.

 
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Originally posted by: Blain
Wouldn't larger tubes = lower velocity?
Click to expand...

Nope, larger tubing has a bigger "sweet spot" in the center that allows for higher velocity.
Click to expand...
In laminar flow, the maximum velocity does occur at the center of the tube. It would also be larger for higher tube diameter under certain conditions. However, no heat transfer is really occurring at the center of the tube - it occurs at the tube boundaries. This is why we're concerned with the velocity averaged over the cross-sectional area. I'm also going to guess that you're not operating at laminar conditions in these systems, as that wouldn't be very efficient. In turbulent systems, the velocity is roughly constant across the cross section of the tube.

The simplest way to see what I'm saying is to find the average velocity, which is nothing but the volumetric flowrate divided by the cross-sectional area of the tube (innder diameter^2*pi/4).
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Minerals, bacteria, spora, extreme conductivity and questionable pH makes tap water one of the worst choices possible for a coolant base. Distilled, ozonated (or UV treated) water is a $1.50 a bottle.

Edit: Be careful, Mrvile. There's some questionable advice in this thread. Don't forget to look into this carefully before you buy anything.
Click to expand...
If you have spora or bacteria in your tap water, you'd better call the EPA so they can shut down your drinking water supplier - that's illegal. There are also pH requirements for tap water set by the EPA, so that should not be an issue. I already warned him about water hardness, which encompasses minerals. Some common species found in tapwater are actually conducive to heat transfer, meaning that tap water may perform in a superior manner to distilled water. If you're calling my advice questionable, I can't help but laugh. I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to speak to these issues as well as anyone here.

Of course, you must consider this with the fouling considerations I mentioned above and weigh them for yourself - the water here isn't very good and I wouldn't use it.
 
If you have spora or bacteria in your tap water, you'd better call the EPA so they can shut down your drinking water supplier - that's illegal. There are also pH requirements for tap water set by the EPA, so that should not be an issue. I already warned him about water hardness, which encompasses minerals. Some common species found in tapwater are actually conducive to heat transfer, meaning that tap water may perform in a superior manner to distilled water.
Click to expand...
Take one look at a system run on tap water for six months and then tell me there's nothing growing in your tap water. The EPA sets maximum contaminant levels, not zero-contaminant levels. (And those levels are obviously not applied in my apartment.) And for a buck, why would you skimp?

Also, Vile, make sure to pick up some Zerex from DD or something similar from a local hardware or automotive store. Even in distilled water you'll get some growth without it.

-HC-

 
Originally posted by: HeaterCore
Take one look at a system run on tap water for six months and then tell me there's nothing growing in your tap water. The EPA sets maximum contaminant levels, not zero-contaminant levels. (And those levels are obviously not applied in my apartment.) And for a buck, why would you skimp?

Also, Vile, make sure to pick up some Zerex from DD or something similar from a local hardware or automotive store. Even in distilled water you'll get some growth without it.

-HC-
Click to expand...
The EPA has a limit of zero for bacteria in drinking water. If you have something growing in your sink, it shouldn't be from the input water. Try doing your dishes. 😀
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Originally posted by: Blain
Wouldn't larger tubes = lower velocity?
Click to expand...

Nope, larger tubing has a bigger "sweet spot" in the center that allows for higher velocity.
Click to expand...
In laminar flow, the maximum velocity does occur at the center of the tube. It would also be larger for higher tube diameter under certain conditions. However, no heat transfer is really occurring at the center of the tube - it occurs at the tube boundaries. This is why we're concerned with the velocity averaged over the cross-sectional area. I'm also going to guess that you're not operating at laminar conditions in these systems, as that wouldn't be very efficient. In turbulent systems, the velocity is roughly constant across the cross section of the tube.

The simplest way to see what I'm saying is to find the average velocity, which is nothing but the volumetric flowrate divided by the cross-sectional area of the tube (innder diameter^2*pi/4).
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Minerals, bacteria, spora, extreme conductivity and questionable pH makes tap water one of the worst choices possible for a coolant base. Distilled, ozonated (or UV treated) water is a $1.50 a bottle.

Edit: Be careful, Mrvile. There's some questionable advice in this thread. Don't forget to look into this carefully before you buy anything.
Click to expand...

If you have spora or bacteria in your tap water, you'd better call the EPA so they can shut down your drinking water supplier - that's illegal. There are also pH requirements for tap water set by the EPA, so that should not be an issue. I already warned him about water hardness, which encompasses minerals. Some common species found in tapwater are actually conducive to heat transfer, meaning that tap water may perform in a superior manner to distilled water. If you're calling my advice questionable, I can't help but laugh. I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to speak to these issues as well as anyone here.

Of course, you must consider this with the fouling considerations I mentioned above and weigh them for yourself - the water here isn't very good and I wouldn't use it.
Click to expand...

Heat transfer occurs at the exchanger, plain and simple. Radiant heat dissipation through the tube wall is not a factor, nor does it need to be considered in the scope of this discussion. The higher velocity water streaming along the center of the tube, away from the drag created close to the wall of the tube, is most important for impingment blocks to function as designed. A majority of the quality CPU blocks today are of this type.

All tap water that I know of contains biology to some degree. The EPA is aware of this and publishes standards for what level of these things is acceptable. Forgive this, but your approach to this issue is needlessly convoluted. Let's not forget that we're talking about what's best in a water cooling loop, and that's mineral and biologic-free water, with a pH of between 7-8.

Now, let's address the personal aspect of your reply. For the record, I couldn't care less what you toss into your loop, or if you can't help but laugh at what is one of the few trusted conventions about water-cooling. Your advice was simply wrong in context, even with your mention of potential fouling. Again, distilled water is the best base for a coolant mixture. As I said, considering the cost, there is NO viable reason for not using it, unless you WANT to create problems for yourself.



 
Originally posted by: HeaterCore

Also, Vile, make sure to pick up some Zerex from DD or something similar from a local hardware or automotive store. Even in distilled water you'll get some growth without it.

-HC-
Click to expand...

As long as your loop is composed of single-metal blocks, something like Xerex really isn't the best possible choice. Current CW says that such additives have one use and that's as a meatball biocide. There are dedicated biocides that work better and have predictable attibutes, and without the known downsides of automotive fluids like antifreeze.

 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: HeaterCore
Take one look at a system run on tap water for six months and then tell me there's nothing growing in your tap water. The EPA sets maximum contaminant levels, not zero-contaminant levels. (And those levels are obviously not applied in my apartment.) And for a buck, why would you skimp?

Also, Vile, make sure to pick up some Zerex from DD or something similar from a local hardware or automotive store. Even in distilled water you'll get some growth without it.

-HC-
Click to expand...
The EPA has a limit of zero for bacteria in drinking water. If you have something growing in your sink, it shouldn't be from the input water. Try doing your dishes. 😀
Click to expand...

The EPA has a zero-tolerance policy for particular, specified bacteria that pose a definite health risk. Neutral bacteria and other growth agents are either not regulated or limited to a set concentration. Check it yourself: http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mdbp/mdbp.html

Then again, HW's right. This is moot anyway, as contamination at some point is inevitable and requires some sort of biocide. And you're right too -- I do need to do my dishes.

HW, I'm running an all-copper system and don't need the corrosion protection of the Zerex I picked up from Danger Den. Any recommended alternatives?

-HC-
 
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Heat transfer occurs at the exchanger, plain and simple. Radiant heat dissipation through the tube wall is not a factor, nor does it need to be considered in the scope of this discussion. The higher velocity water streaming along the center of the tube, away from the drag created close to the wall of the tube, is most important for impingment blocks to function as designed. A majority of the quality CPU blocks today are of this type.

All tap water that I know of contains biology to some degree. The EPA is aware of this and publishes standards for what level of these things is acceptable. Forgive this, but your approach to this issue is needlessly convoluted. Let's not forget that we're talking about what's best in a water cooling loop, and that's mineral and biologic-free water, with a pH of between 7-8.

Now, let's address the personal aspect of your reply. For the record, I couldn't care less what you toss into your loop, or if you can't help but laugh at what is one of the few trusted conventions about water-cooling. Your advice was simply wrong in context, even with your mention of potential fouling. Again, distilled water is the best base for a coolant mixture. As I said, considering the cost, there is NO viable reason for not using it, unless you WANT to create problems for yourself.
Click to expand...
:shakes his head; I'll write something up on this later tonight that shows exactly how you determine the velocity at a given point in a tube. Of course, this is probably a moot point since, as I said, it's likely that these things operate under turbulent flow conditions which don't really have a variable velocity profile. I might even type something up on how to calculate the heat flux given some other things. But, of course, it'd be a waste of time since I've never built a water cooling system before, even if I have designed multi-million dollar heat exchangers. Obviously your understanding stemming from your experience trumps any expertise I might have.

As for using or not using distilled water, I told him why you should or should not use it. He's obviously on a tight budget, since he's concerned about $15 here or there, so in that scope $1.50 isn't negligible. I told him the information he needs to make his own decision. Heaven forbid someone actually *learn* something and make a decision for himself!
 
Originally posted by: HeaterCoreHW, I'm running an all-copper system and don't need the corrosion protection of the Zerex I picked up from Danger Den. Any recommended alternatives?

-HC-
Click to expand...

I've used this in 3 loops, and have yet to have any growth.

 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Heat transfer occurs at the exchanger, plain and simple. Radiant heat dissipation through the tube wall is not a factor, nor does it need to be considered in the scope of this discussion. The higher velocity water streaming along the center of the tube, away from the drag created close to the wall of the tube, is most important for impingment blocks to function as designed. A majority of the quality CPU blocks today are of this type.

All tap water that I know of contains biology to some degree. The EPA is aware of this and publishes standards for what level of these things is acceptable. Forgive this, but your approach to this issue is needlessly convoluted. Let's not forget that we're talking about what's best in a water cooling loop, and that's mineral and biologic-free water, with a pH of between 7-8.

Now, let's address the personal aspect of your reply. For the record, I couldn't care less what you toss into your loop, or if you can't help but laugh at what is one of the few trusted conventions about water-cooling. Your advice was simply wrong in context, even with your mention of potential fouling. Again, distilled water is the best base for a coolant mixture. As I said, considering the cost, there is NO viable reason for not using it, unless you WANT to create problems for yourself.
Click to expand...

:shakes his head; I'll write something up on this later tonight that shows exactly how you determine the velocity at a given point in a tube. Of course, this is probably a moot point since, as I said, it's likely that these things operate under turbulent flow conditions which don't really have a variable velocity profile. I might even type something up on how to calculate the heat flux given some other things. But, of course, it'd be a waste of time since I've never built a water cooling system before, even if I have designed multi-million dollar heat exchangers. Obviously your understanding stemming from your experience trumps any expertise I might have.

As for using or not using distilled water, I told him why you should or should not use it. He's obviously on a tight budget, since he's concerned about $15 here or there, so in that scope $1.50 isn't negligible. I told him the information he needs to make his own decision. Heaven forbid someone actually *learn* something and make a decision for himself!
Click to expand...

Though I'm sure you'd offer this information to be helpful, don't bother. I know as much as I currently need to in order to understand, at least partially, the way my loop works. Your knowledge of the mechanics is very impressive though, and I admire it a great deal.

🙂 Some things you can fudge on in terms of water-cooling, and I not only said as much, I offered step-by-step alternatives. However, a bad coolant mixtures will make all other concerns moot very quickly. If $1.50, for perhaps 6-months to a year of smooth, trouble-free service it too much, then perhaps the OP should either wait a while and save up, or not WC at all. It can be an expensive hobby\form of thermal management, and fun too, but it can be a HUGE PITA if you aren't careful about certain things. Just so you'll know who're you're dealing with Cyclo, I offer advice here, freely, because when I was learning no one took the time to answer my "stupid questions." I know ALL about learning on my own and NEVER try to force my way of doing things on others. Anyone is free to ignore anything I might say, and without any hard-feelings.

 
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Though I'm sure you'd offer this information to be helpful, don't bother. I know as much as I currently need to in order to understand, at least partially, the way my loop works. Your knowledge of the mechanics is very impressive though, and I admire it a great deal.

🙂 Some things you can fudge on in terms of water-cooling, and I not only said as much, I offered step-by-step alternatives. However, a bad coolant mixtures will make all other concerns moot very quickly. If $1.50, for perhaps 6-months to a year of smooth, trouble-free service it too much, then perhaps the OP should either wait a while and save up, or not WC at all. It can be an expensive hobby\form of thermal management, and fun too, but it can be a HUGE PITA if you aren't careful about certain things. Just so you'll know who're you're dealing with Cyclo, I offer advice here, freely, because when I was learning no one took the time to answer my "stupid questions." I know ALL about learning on my own and NEVER try to force my way of doing things on others. Anyone is free to ignore anything I might say, and without any hard-feelings.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup:

I offer my advice here because, even though I've never done anything exotic with a computer case (hell, never even put on a new fan), I know quite a bit about heat transfer and fluid dynamics. I try to explain in the simplest way I can what I know so people can understand how their stuff works in hopes that they might be able to solve any problems that may arise. My explanations probably aren't the easiest to follow, but I try to convey the information in a way that everyone can understand.

In any case, if you're going to spend money on a coolant, why not just use antifreeze? Many of them have the antimicrobial properties you're looking for, plus they're less corrosive than water, while maintaining the other desired properties. 😀
 
Antifreeze simply doesn't have the heat transfer properties that water has. AF actually thickens at temps found commonly in PC based water-cooling system. It also includes additives, like something that makes it taste bad, that add nothing to the process. Any anti-microbial properties of antifreeze are by accident, not design. Car coolant systems simply aren't known for being a good place for biological growth. I'm well aware of the championship-quality corrosive properties of water, especially salt water. However, nearly mineral-free, pH-buffered FRESH-water is simply the best basis for a PC-based water-cooling system currently available.
 
Wow you guys post a lot during the day, I guess its spring break for you Cyclo and Hardwarrior you just have no life 😉 j/k

Anywho, I read through everything you guys had to say, and the first thing I'm saying is that my budget is about 200 dollars. The reason I'd rather gimp out on a CPU block or a radiator is because if I do it won't hurt anything. However, gimping out on the solution can end up killing everything. I won't mind spending a few extra bucks on (antifreeze, Cyclo?) or distilled water. Distilled water also doesn't conduct electricity very well (if at all), so if something stupid happened I'd have less a chance of really breaking anything.

I read earlier that someone recommended the Maze4 as a good replacement to the TDX, and since the Maze4 is almost 20 dollars cheaper, I was wondering if someone else could second this as a viable option. He also said I could replace the Xtreme with the Pro. Its either the CPU block or the radiator now I guess, some more advice is appreciated.

I'm willing to get the resevoir because for 18 bucks it makes things much easier and more convenient. I'm a beginner, and I want to make things as easy as possible for myself.

But I'm still stuck between 3/8 or 1/2. It looks like there are two opinions, I'm willing to get (both the same price anyway 😛) whichever offers better performance.

Don't worry Hardwarrior, I don't get WC for a while, just looking into it. You guys are a lot of help (even though there are some disputes). Thanks!

EDIT: PS - Cyclo, what do you teach?
 
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