Water Cooling--what if......

[JEDIYoda]

I have been reading and very interested in water cooling for about 6 months now.

By radical over clocking I`m talking a full gigahertz or more over rated specs..
For example-- a 3.2EE overclocked to 4.2 or more.....

Please be very specific when describing a set up or products.
I am seriously in search of information.
To qualify things--
I am talking about building my own....
No Zalman Reserator or Thermaltake Aquarius3...etc....

I am thinking of watercooling the New AMD rigg I will be building shortly!

Your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[tyborg]

for something like that, you'd need a sub-zero cooler. Since vapochills aren't classified as watercooling (and because they cost $1000 a piece, in addition to the cost of insulating against condensation), I'd reccomend you get a TEC/Peltier cooler. Swiftech has some great ones that are already mounted on a waterblock. You might look at those. As for radiators, go with a modded car heatercore if you really want to save some money. for a VGA block, go with swiftech's latest or the danger den Maze4. if you don't want a TEC, get the storm waterblock, best out today no question. if you do get it either get one of swiftech's or the DangerDen TDX. These are all the things I've heard were good. if you do decide on a kit, the H2O Apex is the best one out.

 

[tyborg]

P.S. TECs are Thermal-Electric coolers. When you run electricity through them, one side gets really hot (the side that touches the waterblock) and the other side gets really really cold. If you go with this, get dielectric grease and some silicone and neoprene. You'll need to condition your parts against condensation.

 

[Messudieh]

It would be a tough thing to do, especially with an AMD, since they're clocked lower. Most of the time a processor's maximum speed is unpredictable until it is actually clocked up to its maximum. It all depends on the manufacturing process and luck of the draw. Also, usually processors with a higher maximum speed have a higher 'safe' speed, so they get sold as higher clocked chips.

 

[tyborg]

take the FXes for example where you only get .2 or .4 ghz more than the non-FX chips, but pay $700 more than the 4000+. where do you think that extra $700comes in? in the higher quality manufacturing processes that let them release it with an unlocked multiplier.

 

[mrkun]

I'm sure my 3000+ Venice will OC 1 Ghz on air (haven't run Prime at 2.8 yet). It's OCed 900 Mhz right now and it idles ~31C. This is using an XP-90 by the way.

 

[JEDIYoda]

My P4 3.2 EE over clocked to 4.0 idles at 29c-31c using XP120.....and of course when I have my CPU that Overclocked I have my thermaltake Smart fan cranked all the way...94cfm...heheee

 

[mrkun]

Where do you have the extra two fans in your case Jedi? One on the cpu, one for intake, one for output, and...?

 

[lifeguard1999]

It depends somewhat on the CPU you get. My 1.8 GHz Athlon64 (Venice 3000+) o/c to 2.8 GHz on stock air (but gets very hot). I tend run it at 2.7 GHz for that very reason. So, with a water cooling rig and the right CPU you can easily get an extra 1 GHz out of it.

 

[HardWarrior]

Are you planning on multiple heat sources (CPU, GPU, etc.), JY? Is this going to be an in-case solution? Are you and anti-noise Nazi?

In general, if you want your dissipation capacity to be up to the job and more:

1. I'd suggest this for a rad. It's designed to perform well with high-speed, high-pressure fans, which you'll need for aces performance. The two extended recommendation I'd offer, though not directly related to your project would be that you clean your rad semi-often, say once a month, and that you try your damndest to offer your rad enough intake.

2. Three of these babies will drive the selected rad to its fullest. If you're a noise freak you can go smaller, but not by too much if you want your $ worth from a BIX 3. The cool thing about these fans (I have two mounted) is that you don't get the bearing noise inherent in ball fans. However, you should expect a nice wooosh.

3. Now for the main course, THIS baby is the current SOTA in CPU blocks. I won't bore you with my opinion on it, hit the specs, read the review and bear in mind that I ordered one today.

If you need anything further, let me know.

 

[Greenman]

1. I'd suggest this for a rad. It's designed to perform well with high-speed, high-pressure fans, which you'll need for aces performance. The two extended recommendation I'd offer, though not directly related to your project would be that you clean your rad semi-often, say once a month, and that you try your damndest to offer your rad enough intake.

YIKES!! That's a lot of cash for a rad. Does it really perform that much better than a $20 heater core?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Greenman

1. I'd suggest this for a rad. It's designed to perform well with high-speed, high-pressure fans, which you'll need for aces performance. The two extended recommendation I'd offer, though not directly related to your project would be that you clean your rad semi-often, say once a month, and that you try your damndest to offer your rad enough intake.

YIKES!! That's a lot of cash for a rad. Does it really perform that much better than a $20 heater core?

It all depends on how much disposable cash you have and how you want your rig to look when comparing rads to cores. Besides that, I think an equivalent core in terms of surface area is going to cost a fair sight more than $20 when you toss in things like shrouds, barbs and painting. Sure, you can do these things yourself but I don't enjoy fiddling with these things so I can't honestly recommend such endeavors when asked. As far as a direct performance comparison between this rad and a like core, I've never seen one. I don't think it would be far fetched to assume that they'd be fairly close though.

Also, FCPU is on the expensive side. I'm sure you can find the same rad cheaper with a bit of deligence.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: mrkun
Where do you have the extra two fans in your case Jedi? One on the cpu, one for intake, one for output, and...?

I have a 120mm exhaust fan upper rear......
I have a 80mm side window fan.....
I have a 120mm intake lower front blowing air over the harddrives
I have a Zalman 80mm slim fan inside the case blowing air over the memory...
I have a 120mm fan on my XP 120.....
I have the upper fan mounting hole blocked!!

The only exhaust fan I have is the 120mm in the upper rear of the case...

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/JEDI_Yoda/005a.jpg

 

[mrkun]

I would recommend against the UHS Panaflo 120mm. I have the high speed ones, and they sound like jet engines when running at max speed (2400 RPMs vs. 2750 for the UHS).

 

[Jimmah]

Make your own refridgeration unit. Its really not that hard (I used to work in a freezer factory, we'd make weird stuff all the time) and rather cheap if you don't mind looking around a bit. Old air conditioners work, as do dehums and fridges/freezers. Surplus stores sometimes have unused compressors, then all you'd need is the condenser coil, dryer and cpu block.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I have conflicted feelings about water-cooling.

On the one hand, I've imagined maybe three designs for a "chilled" water-cooling system.

The first was a refinement of the Nuk-aler Tower evaporative cooler, or "bong" cooler.

Two others involved TEC solutions. One of these involved building a copper sheet-metal water reservoir 2" thick with height and width of a side-case-panel. The trick would then be to imbed the cold-sides of three or more TEC coolers in the reservoir, with the hot side either protruding from the case panel or enclosed in an air-duct with its own fan for quick exhaust from the case rear.

And the third idea was to build a TEC-driven refrigerator-chamber around the mobo and circuit cards -- including a good cooler like the SI-120.

The problem with direct application of TEC to the CPU is a matter of square millimeters. The CPU size has been shrinking, while the thermal power has been growing. A TEC cooler that covers a contemporary processor cap just cannot draw enough heat out of such contemporary processors to make it worthwhile. If you could increase the area of contact, it might again be feasible, but that's not going to happen: Neither Intel nor AMD are going to start producing "larger" processors.

So the only way to make TEC effective is to find a way to use several TEC devices, without depending on direct processor-cap contact to make it work.

I think the future of water-cooling will be in "chilled" water cooling. That being said, the one instinct I follow in my pursuit of this business (or is it nonsense?) -- the KISS principle. The KISS principle separates innovative designs from Rube Goldbergs. The KISS principle drove the rise of Japanese post-war industry -- leading to the automobile you are probably driving.

Also, I'm not all that sure what cooling below room temperature gives you -- one person said that "regular" water-cooling buys you about 300 megahertz in over-clocking potential. But after reading the reviews on last year's water-cooling kits, and seeing the boasts people have made about their idle and load temperatures, I'm not sure if the extra working parts give you that much of an edge.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: mrkun
I would recommend against the UHS Panaflo 120mm. I have the high speed ones, and they sound like jet engines when running at max speed (2400 RPMs vs. 2750 for the UHS).

Yes, they do generate some sound (which I mentioned before), but they're performance fans. What do you expect? I'm listening to two of them right now, and they're simply not "jet engine" loud or annoying. Of course this is my PERSONAL opinion, and everyone's mileage will vary.

 

[mrkun]

Let me qualify the volume in another way. The room with with this computer is down a short hall and about 35 feet from the front door of the house. If I put the fans on full blast, I can stand on my porch (with the door open) and still hear the fans.

 

[HardWarrior]

Maybe I'm missing something here (besides the fact that you didn't bother addressing anything I said), but if these fans are so gosh awful loud, why are you still using them?

AGAIN, if you want to use pussy-ass fans for THE RAD I SUGGESTED (which IS what we're talking about here), go ahead. However, you won't be getting top-notch performance or your money's worth. You'd be better off with a BIP 3 instead.

 

[HeaterCore]

If you're in the market for anything in the Black Ice line, get it from Danger Den. They're running a huge discount, and have been for several months. The same BIX3 that goes for $125 at FCPU is $75 at DD; the BIP3 is only $45.

Personally, I'm waiting for stateside availability of Thermochill's new PA120.X series. They were originally designed for optimum performance at low noise, but according to Cathar and some preliminary testing at Xtremesystems.org they beat up on pretty much anything out there, at any CFM. They won't come cheap, though.

A core is a very workable solution if you're willing to, well, work at it, and if you don't care much how it looks. I'd stay away from the one Danger Den sells, though. It's a Fedco 2-199, which is wider than a drive bay so it's a major pain in the ass to mount. Look for the 2-302 (AKA the '77 Bonneville) instead. It's just under the width of a drive bay, and is a bit taller than the 199 for roughly the same surface area. Seriously, if you're considering a core, make sure you know what you're getting into first.

-hc-

 

[HardWarrior]

One addendum: There's a user at OCforums named Weapon who offers premodded cores that are fabulous. Look him up if you're in the market.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Maybe I'm missing something here (besides the fact that you didn't bother addressing anything I said), but if these fans are so gosh awful loud, why are you still using them?

Alright, sorry about the lack of confusion. Yes, the fans are awesome; however, I find them to be too loud when run at max speed (note: my system isn't WCed, so radiator performance isn't an issue). A fan controller solves the problem for me. =)

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Maybe I'm missing something here (besides the fact that you didn't bother addressing anything I said), but if these fans are so gosh awful loud, why are you still using them?

Alright, sorry about the lack of confusion. Yes, the fans are awesome; however, I find them to be too loud when run at max speed (note: my system isn't WCed, so radiator performance isn't an issue). A fan controller solves the problem for me. =)

So you like the performance but the racket sucks at full cry? I know what you mean, dude. One thing that tames fans on a rad, somewhat, is using a shroud. They allow at least some of the noise to fall back towards the rad and be absorbed by its mass.

 

[mindwreck]

for your experiment:
listen to hardW and get the BIX3
as for fans, the ones he recommended are great or you can get some san ace fans and undervolt them. The fans you need will have to be 38mm. The thicker fans will provide the pressure needed to get air across that thick radiator.