Water cooling, radiator question

[liquid51]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Swapping fans really isn't that easy. Even if it was, why should a person that's new to water-cooling be left with trial and error? If those of us who've been using water for an extended period are good for anything in places like this it should be as a resourse that helps new people not to have to reinvent the wheel.

I do agree with you hardwarrior, but there's no one solution being offered as the best option. I would put myself through the hassle of swapping fans till I found the best results, and I wouldn't consider that to be much of a hassle, seeing as how I'm looking for the best way to cool a system that has a ton of my time and money tied up in it already.
Then, I could recommend a configuration to someone based on my system specs. Unfortunately, my solution would differ from someone elses with an equal amount of experience, and the op would be left to find the best solution through trial and error.
I say this having absolutely zero water cooling experience; I rarely take advice as the gospel.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: liquid51
I do agree with you hardwarrior, but there's no one solution being offered as the best option. I would put myself through the hassle of swapping fans till I found the best results, and I wouldn't consider that to be much of a hassle, seeing as how I'm looking for the best way to cool a system that has a ton of my time and money tied up in it already.

Believe me, after you go through the process a few times you won't feel the same way. Don't get me wrong, if this is your preference then go ahead. There are, however, many trusted sources of information that if utilized can spare you lots of expensive, unnecessary and pontentially destructive grunt work, which will allow you to get right into the purpose of this exercise, efficiently cooling your machine. Either way, good luck.

Then, I could recommend a configuration to someone based on my system specs. Unfortunately, my solution would differ from someone elses with an equal amount of experience, and the op would be left to find the best solution through trial and error.

Why so negative? I've spent a great deal of energy here in an effort to make up for the fact that when I was learning few seemed interested in taking the time to answer my "dumb" questions. I've even been noted for the soundness of my contributions from time to time.

I say this having absolutely zero water cooling experience;

Okay.

I rarely take advice as the gospel.

Then you're going to have a rough time. Trusted sources aren't hard to come by, but I'm stating to see that knowing who to trust requires experience too, just of a different type. For me it doesn't take much to know a BSer when I see one, but I've been around for a good long while.

 

[liquid51]

all I'm saying is that what works for some may not be the best option for others. I don't trial and error when additional expenses may come into play. In fact, I'm a research whore . I make sure I've read every piece of available knowledge on a subject before I make a commentment.

I also believe that those who treat a source (even a well trusted source) as though it were "the gospel", and don't weigh the information against how it might affect them in their own situation, are in for a rough time.

Don't forget, we're talking about fan placement here. I've done plenty of things that amounted to a lot more work than swapping a few fans around. To top it off, I'm about as anal as they come.

Try swapping a larger engine than the manufacturer entended into a car, only to find that it's skewed by 1/4". I know it would've worked; I had proof from the experienced. But I couldn't except that. I know it could be done better if I took some measurements, pulled the entire engine and transmission back out, and did some more cut and weld on the mounts. So I did.

I really don't feel as though swapping a few fans about, at no additional cost (save my own time), is too much of a hassle. This I can say with zero water cooling experience. I will not however, buy one of each radiator/pump/block/etc. and trial and error. For that kind of descision, I read comments and recommendations from sources such as yourself, and then make my descision based on what best fits my needs and will work to my satisfaction. I guarantee you weren't noted for the soundness of your contributions because you were good at passing along information.

Good information comes from those who compile it and then mesh it into a system that works for them. I promise I won't be offended when they thank me for my input, but tell me that they found a better way of doing it by making a slight modification.

edit: I did notice in a previous post how changing a radiator fan would require removing the plumbing. That would definately suck. So, I'd need to figure out a mounting solution that would allow access to the fans without removal of plumbing. I just learned something. But I won't say, "It can't be done" because someone with experience said so.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: liquid51
all I'm saying is that what works for some may not be the best option for others.

Remember liquid, I'm no where near new to this. In all likelyhood I was preaching diversity and personal experimentation with water-based FRU's before you even considered getting wet. Again, I'm not trying to talk you out of going your own way. To do so is your choice, not mine.

Whether you choose to avail yourself of it or not, there is a large and ever expanding body of hard-data covering what works, and what doesn't work. No person who's new to water-cooling has to start from scratch.

 

[TrevorRC]

I concur with HW, sticking my fans in originally was absolutely HORRID--I wouldn't do it again, even for a 1C drop. Liquid, as you've said, you've never done it. It probably took me a good 20 minutes/hour to get the fans in and thread the screws through without having a fan slide down, or shift, or move, or not have a screw go through... and so on.

Someone recently did the push-vs-pull experiment over at XS, and the results indicated absolutely 0 change [within error margin] using a PA 120.3

Heatercores are notoriously difficult to work with, I've done it. They also look atrocious.

Fluence, if you're against doing the mods on your own, what is your budget? If you have money to splurge and want something anyone and everyone will drool over, check out www.ep-uk.co.uk; owned by Phil Stanbridge, a good member of XS...
http://www.ep-uk.co.uk/acatalog/Lian_Li.html Check out the G70 case, it's absolutely jaw-dropping.
The price [450GBP] is as well, but I'd kill for it anyway. [[You could probably take a knife to that thing and not scratch it!]]

If not, always a good time to warm up to your friend the Dremel

At the very least, check out the pictures of the G70 [if you haven't... the message you typed made it seem like you blew it off], it is substantially more appealing, aethetically speaking, when compared to the PC-60 series.:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage...TX+Full+Tower+Computer+Case+%2D+Retail

It has the 5.25" space you need for silent computing, an alternate spot for your PSU to have room for a 3x120 radiator [though 2x120 works more than fine.], all 120mm fans in the case. Also, regardless of case, consider an MCP350 and do the inlet mod... it'll bring it almost to the level of performance of the 655, and a much smaller package

--Trevor

 

[VballCoach]

Originally posted by: TrevorRC
I concur with HW, sticking my fans in originally was absolutely HORRID--I wouldn't do it again, even for a 1C drop. Liquid, as you've said, you've never done it. It probably took me a good 20 minutes/hour to get the fans in and thread the screws through without having a fan slide down, or shift, or move, or not have a screw go through... and so on.

Someone recently did the push-vs-pull experiment over at XS, and the results indicated absolutely 0 change [within error margin] using a PA 120.3

Heatercores are notoriously difficult to work with, I've done it. They also look atrocious.

Fluence, if you're against doing the mods on your own, what is your budget? If you have money to splurge and want something anyone and everyone will drool over, check out www.ep-uk.co.uk; owned by Phil Stanbridge, a good member of XS...
http://www.ep-uk.co.uk/acatalog/Lian_Li.html Check out the G70 case, it's absolutely jaw-dropping.
The price [450GBP] is as well, but I'd kill for it anyway. [[You could probably take a knife to that thing and not scratch it!]]

If not, always a good time to warm up to your friend the Dremel

At the very least, check out the pictures of the G70 [if you haven't... the message you typed made it seem like you blew it off], it is substantially more appealing, aethetically speaking, when compared to the PC-60 series.:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage...TX+Full+Tower+Computer+Case+%2D+Retail

It has the 5.25" space you need for silent computing, an alternate spot for your PSU to have room for a 3x120 radiator [though 2x120 works more than fine.], all 120mm fans in the case. Also, regardless of case, consider an MCP350 and do the inlet mod... it'll bring it almost to the level of performance of the 655, and a much smaller package

--Trevor

hmmm....

so I guess this is 'atrocious' then??
my new rig pic 1
pic2

so what's wrong with heater cores? Lots of us have been using them for a long time...with great results.

my diy blocks and 2-342 single pass keep my opty 148/7900gt at 24c/35c respectively...this is according to nTune's nvMonitor[1st time with this app].

I will agree w/doing the mcp350 mod. I've done it on 3 so far and the last one was on a new 18w DDC. It had a lot more pressure than my 10w...but had more noise. It wasn't 'whiney' noise just louder than the 10w.

HardWarrior, why don't you like the h20 forums on other sites? I've been a member over on OCForums watercooling forum for years. Lots of great info there. Yeah, sometimes some guys are rude but you get that everywhere and most of the members there are good guys, IMO.

Fluence, I suggest checking out the h20 forums over at OCForums, XS Forums, SilentPC forums, HardForums, etc. Read the stickies..most of the time you can get your answers there.

Good luck with your h20.

 

[liquid51]

You are missing my point. I can guarantee you I've done things way more tedious than installing an entire water cooling system. No, I've never done it before, but I can read. You may not spend 2 hours for 1º C, but I would. I'm sure you'll say thats asinine, and maybe to you it is. But that would be selling myself short, all for a simpe fan placement (if that was all it took), and I don't let that sort of thing slide.

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Remember liquid, I'm no where near new to this. In all likelyhood I was preaching diversity and personal experimentation with water-based FRU's before you even considered getting wet. Again, I'm not trying to talk you out of going your own way. To do so is your choice, not mine.

Whether you choose to avail yourself of it or not, there is a large and ever expanding body of hard-data covering what works, and what doesn't work. No person who's new to water-cooling has to start from scratch.

You think because you've been water cooling pc's for a long time means you have more experience with running hose, threading screws, wiring pumps, bleeding systems, etc. than myself? And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you don't have more experience than I do (for all I know, you've been doing this years before I was even born. I'm 26, let me know), but to imply that I have no idea what I'm talking about simply because I've never water cooled a pc is a touch insulting. Anyone who's built a setup of any kind where customization has been implemented, where installation has been hard, or where patience was tried because something was difficult, has chalked up experience that can be applied to a great number of other fields.

I sincerely doubt my first water cooling setup will give me any problem whatsoever that is entirely unique to it's classification. Anyone who has built a custom aquarium setup, changed belts and hoses on their car (much less entire custom engine swaps), or rewired the entire harness, ecu, and electronics on a car should have the neccessary skills to do this.

And your absolutely nuts if you think I won't scour the internet, including sites such as this, looking for excellent info from people just like yourselves (which, once again your missing the point. I KNOW that you are experienced in this area and I WILL take your advise) that will help me in building the system that will perfectly suit my needs and satisfy me.

Please don't bash me, saying I'm foolish for turning a deaf ear, when I simply do not take every last bit of information that is fed to me as though it were the absolute perfect solution that will suit everyone's needs. I've done that before, and trust me, I've learned the mistake in it. I once attempted to convert a power steering system into a manual by following the exact instructions of a national racing team. I found a way to greatly simplify, and greatly improve on their setup. In fact, I wasted my money on the components they recommended as I need none of them (huh, imagine that. a professional racing team)! My system has worked flawlessly on a number of cars for 3 years plus. My time is my time. You shouldn't think another foolish (claiming, he thinks he's so smart he'll start from scratch, ignoring others progress) simply because he'll put more time into a project than you will. No, someone will take your ideas, and simply because they'll stop and think about the fact that it might not be the end all, they'll make it better.

 

[liquid51]

hey, y'know what? I apologize to the op. This has become less and less about your original topic. Truth is, I don't have any kind of real experience with watercooling. The info I offered was a little bit of truth I thought I saw. So, good luck with your setup

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: liquid51
You are missing my point.

No I'm not, because you don't have a point, other than wanting to be worshipped by strangers. You admit that you've never water-cooled and know nothing about it, but expect to be treated like you're an old pro\baby genius.

You think because you've been water cooling pc's for a long time means you have more experience with running hose, threading screws, wiring pumps, bleeding systems, etc. than myself? -snip-

And now we get into the juvenile phase that includes chest-thumping, territory-marking, violent mood swings and extended typing. Sorry dude, I see no need to kiss your ass.

 

[TrevorRC]

If mounted externally VBallcoach

This thread is going way off-topic, and is becoming more and more of a flame-fest as the posts drag on....Hard, stop responding to personal attacks... ignore it and the problems disappear.

--Trevor

 

[liquid51]

chest thumping? personal attacks? worshipped by strangers? This HAS gotten out of hand.

Did you not read where I said that I do believe you have excellent advice to offer? Did you not read where I said I would seek that advice? And now you're the one getting bent out of shape because someone else has an idea? An idea that doesn't even contradict your own?

I never once claimed that my knowledge exceeded your own. I think you need to be a little more open minded, especially given the fact that you have no idea who I am or what knowledge I might have to offer (and I DON'T claim to have a ton of knowledge to give, but you'd never know that). You comment on the "juvenile phase", yet you tell me that I don't have a point. I suppose if thats the case, I concede. You're right. There is no point here.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: liquid51
This HAS gotten out of hand.

Indeed it has, with the blame of it firmly situated between your chair and keyboard. This was a fairly innocuous thread until you, a self-admitted neophyte, decided to turn it into a pissing contest. I said nothing to you that could be remotely construed as an excuse for a meatball lecture. Yet you gleefully tried to apply one anyway. Again, I won?t be stampeded/bullied into kissing your ass, or paying homage to you simply because you ?need? it. Your PM seemed to indicate that you don?t want this situation to continue. That?s fine. However, you need to know that I won?t be mollified by another recitation of your supposed skilled-set, or by you damning me with faint praise.

 

[pkme2]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: liquid51
This HAS gotten out of hand.

Indeed it has, with the blame of it firmly situated between your chair and keyboard. This was a fairly innocuous thread until you, a self-admitted neophyte, decided to turn it into a pissing contest. I said nothing to you that could be remotely construed as an excuse for a meatball lecture. Yet you gleefully tried to apply one anyway. Again, I won?t be stampeded/bullied into kissing your ass, or paying homage to you simply because you ?need? it. Your PM seemed to indicate that you don?t want this situation to continue. That?s fine. However, you need to know that I won?t be mollified by another recitation of your supposed skilled-set, or by you damning me with faint praise.

I suggested earlier that maybe the need for water cooling and the use of a radiator for cooling might be not necessary if one considers another alternative.

Your response as if you own this thread, was to rebuke me for the audacity to enter an opinion.

Maybe some of us might have EBCAC, but our opinions are just as good as 90% of other ATers.

Naturally in your magnificence like some others here on AT, have exerted one's influence that other peoples' opinion are not worth anything.

I'm surprised that the mods have let you get away with your bullying so far. Liquid51 has his points, let him express them and we can all go from there.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: pkme2
I suggested earlier that maybe the need for water cooling and the use of a radiator for cooling might be not necessary if one considers another alternative.

Your response as if you own this thread, was to rebuke me for the audacity to enter an opinion.

Maybe some of us might have EBCAC, but our opinions are just as good as 90% of other ATers.

Naturally in your magnificence like some others here on AT, have exerted one's influence that other peoples' opinion are not worth anything.

I'm surprised that the mods have let you get away with your bullying so far. Liquid51 has his points, let him express them and we can all go from there.

Show me where I said or implied any of this or STFU, liar.

 

[pkme2]

I'm sorry it was a response by fluence but.....
Your recent response Hard Warrior shows us how much your IQ happens to be.

But then you're a legend here on AT.
And by your retorts, you're getting to be a legend in your own mind.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: pkme2
I'm sorry it was a response by fluence but.....
Your recent response Hard Warrior shows us how much your IQ happens to be.

But then you're a legend here on AT.
And by your retorts, you're getting to be a legend in your own mind.

In other words, you can't prove any of it.

 

[T2k]

Originally posted by: pkme2

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: liquid51
This HAS gotten out of hand.

Indeed it has, with the blame of it firmly situated between your chair and keyboard. This was a fairly innocuous thread until you, a self-admitted neophyte, decided to turn it into a pissing contest. I said nothing to you that could be remotely construed as an excuse for a meatball lecture. Yet you gleefully tried to apply one anyway. Again, I won?t be stampeded/bullied into kissing your ass, or paying homage to you simply because you ?need? it. Your PM seemed to indicate that you don?t want this situation to continue. That?s fine. However, you need to know that I won?t be mollified by another recitation of your supposed skilled-set, or by you damning me with faint praise.

I suggested earlier that maybe the need for water cooling and the use of a radiator for cooling might be not necessary if one considers another alternative.

Your response as if you own this thread, was to rebuke me for the audacity to enter an opinion.

I must have missed it...

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: pkme2
I'm sorry it was a response by fluence but.....

Nice edit, smartass. What about that proof I asked for to justify the rest of what you said. Or are you the unthinking coward you seem to be?

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: liquid51
all I'm saying is that what works for some may not be the best option for others.

Remember liquid, I'm no where near new to this. In all likelyhood I was preaching diversity and personal experimentation with water-based FRU's before you even considered getting wet. Again, I'm not trying to talk you out of going your own way. To do so is your choice, not mine.

Whether you choose to avail yourself of it or not, there is a large and ever expanding body of hard-data covering what works, and what doesn't work. No person who's new to water-cooling has to start from scratch.

I dont see anywhere in this entire post where hard says YOU HAVE TO. He is mearly giving advice from his success and errors he's made in his experience. That goes with all my posts and comments. I never push that you need this or that, i only push when its to prevent you from making a mistake many have made before you.

Nothing beats research, and im a whore as well when it comes to research. I feel however that trial and error is the best approach in any situation. Just because one system performs a certian way does not mean it will always perform that way on other people's systems. A combination of parts will change the overall condition of the machine.

Also VballCoach, that is a DAYAM nice setup. I see you also went the blue liquid aproach like i did. I also love your petcock drain system, and thanks for the help HW and Vball for setting mine up. I just got my system back up today, and its just finished its leak testing.

 

[Billb2]

Holy flame war!
The BlackIce radiators come in two flavors. Pro and Extreme. The pro is thicker and has fewer fins per inch, The extremes have closer fins spacing and hence require fans with higher pressures (not necesarily higher CFM's).
Therefore the Extreme series offers the most potential for cooling and the Pro series the most potential for quiet.
Do not mount the rad with the outlets pointing down, it will be a bear to bleed (ie. get all the air out at initial startup). Skip the rez and use a T-line. Pump>all the other stuff in the order that requires the least tubing>T-line>pump. Good luck

If you really want to know about watercooling, read Cathar's posts on Procooling.com.