Water cooling air eliminators

[Costas Athan]

Does any water cooling brand for PCs produce air eliminators such the ones used for heating/cooling systems in plumbing applications?

 

[tarmc]

is it possible to use one from plumbing applications in a watercooling setup?
not sure how big these things are so curious if they make some small enough for a wc loop

 

[BrightCandle]

Air really isn't a problem in the loop. Running it for a few minutes and jiggling it around a bit will get rid of 99% of the air in the system and then you can run it. After a couple of power cycles the rest will be gone. You can bleed it religiously if you want to but in practice it isn't really necessary so long as you keep an eye on it (which you will be with a new loop anyway). So specialist bleeding mechanisms just aren't necessary.

 

[Costas Athan]

is it possible to use one from plumbing applications in a watercooling setup?
not sure how big these things are so curious if they make some small enough for a wc loop

They aren't very big. They are used in central heating systems. But it isn't there size that makes me doubt if they can work properly in a water cooling loop, but the pressure at which they release the air.

Have a look here for more info: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/aireliminators.html

I wonder too if there are versions for PCs.

Air really isn't a problem in the loop. Running it for a few minutes and jiggling it around a bit will get rid of 99% of the air in the system and then you can run it. After a couple of power cycles the rest will be gone. You can bleed it religiously if you want to but in practice it isn't really necessary so long as you keep an eye on it (which you will be with a new loop anyway). So specialist bleeding mechanisms just aren't necessary.

Air can reduce severely the performance of a water cooling system. I think that you are right. Maybe it isn't too hard to remove the air in the first place, but if the process can be done continuously and automatically at a small cost, isn't it even better?

 

[tarmc]

A wc loop is low pressure. That shouldnt be a problem.

 

[Costas Athan]

A wc loop is low pressure. That shouldnt be a problem.

Yeah... I thought that low pressure maybe was a problem. I thought that these things had a valve that opened when air pressure exceeded a certain level.

But air eliminators work in a different way.

They have a floater and when air rises and the level of water goes down the valve opens, so probably they can work in a PC. They must be installed at the top of the loop.

 

[BrightCandle]

Air doesn't get into the loop once its bled. So after the initial clearing of the air it wont get back in. So unless you keep rebuilding the loop over and over its just not an issue. I have been building loops since 2006 and I can tell you air has never been a problem. At most it takes a day of running to fully bleed it, but after about 10 minutes its 99% done and its a few bubbles. Performance is basically unaffected by these small bubbles, they make a lot of noise but they don't impact performance really at all.

Mostly a reservoir achieves the exact same thing as one of these does. The air that gets pushed into the reservoir sits at the top and never re-enters the loop. They are cheap, don't put added restriction into the loop and ultimately do the job perfectly.

Honestly its just not an issue in practice.

 

[Gillbot]

Just get the bulk of the air out so the system will circulate properly without the pump losing prime or cavitating. After that it'll "bleed" itself out and you never have to mess with it again basically.

 

[Micrornd]

Yeah... I thought that low pressure maybe was a problem. I thought that these things had a valve that opened when air pressure exceeded a certain level.

But air eliminators work in a different way.

They have a floater and when air rises and the level of water goes down the valve opens, so probably they can work in a PC. They must be installed at the top of the loop.

For larger versions, yes, that is what they look like.
Smaller or cheaper versions are simply a ball that rises (floats) up to a rubberized seat and closes the system, any additional air that arrives after the initial purge allows the ball to drop and air to escape.

AND both designs will purge an amount of liquid before closing fully (no matter what the pressure, since there is no such thing as instantaneous closure) and they can purge additional small amounts, if pressure drops below their minimum needed to stay closed.

Bear in mind that these types are NOT suitable for PC liquid coolers unless you build a pressurized system that maintains the minimum needed to keep the autopurge closed, even when the system is off.
When the needed pressure is not maintained, this type (and all small one's are) opens to atmosphere, allowing air in and venting a small amount of liquid when starting back up.

Good tubing, good initial manual purging practices, a decent reservoir are a much better way to go IMO :biggrin:

 

[Costas Athan]

Air doesn't get into the loop once its bled. So after the initial clearing of the air it wont get back in. So unless you keep rebuilding the loop over and over its just not an issue. I have been building loops since 2006 and I can tell you air has never been a problem. At most it takes a day of running to fully bleed it, but after about 10 minutes its 99% done and its a few bubbles. Performance is basically unaffected by these small bubbles, they make a lot of noise but they don't impact performance really at all.

Mostly a reservoir achieves the exact same thing as one of these does. The air that gets pushed into the reservoir sits at the top and never re-enters the loop. They are cheap, don't put added restriction into the loop and ultimately do the job perfectly.

Honestly its just not an issue in practice.

I don't have any experience with water cooling, but I hope to include a water cooling system in my next build.

I don't think that air eliminators add much restriction to the loop and I don't believe that they would be a problem for the more powerful pumps. But even without any experience with water cooling I understand that there is a good chance that a loop can function properly without them.

The thing is that I always pay attention to every detail of an issue, so I brought up the possibility of air eliminators for PC water cooling!

Just get the bulk of the air out so the system will circulate properly without the pump losing prime or cavitating. After that it'll "bleed" itself out and you never have to mess with it again basically.

What do you mean by "the system will bleed itself"? That the air will rest at the top of the reservoir? But doesn't heat from the CPU and the GPU(s) create more bubbles?

For larger versions, yes, that is what they look like.
Smaller or cheaper versions are simply a ball that rises (floats) up to a rubberized seat and closes the system, any additional air that arrives after the initial purge allows the ball to drop and air to escape.

AND both designs will purge an amount of liquid before closing fully (no matter what the pressure, since there is no such thing as instantaneous closure) and they can purge additional small amounts, if pressure drops below their minimum needed to stay closed.

Bear in mind that these types are NOT suitable for PC liquid coolers unless you build a pressurized system that maintains the minimum needed to keep the autopurge closed, even when the system is off.
When the needed pressure is not maintained, this type (and all small one's are) opens to atmosphere, allowing air in and venting a small amount of liquid when starting back up.

Good tubing, good initial manual purging practices, a decent reservoir are a much better way to go IMO :biggrin:

Which types aren't suitable for PCs? The ones you mentioned with the ball and the rubberized seat or the one I gave the schematic for?

 

[BrightCandle]

What do you mean by "the system will bleed itself"? That the air will rest at the top of the reservoir? But doesn't heat from the CPU and the GPU(s) create more bubbles?

Of course not. The amount of energy necessary to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is enormous, positively huge. Once air is out of the loop its gone, there is no way for it to get in at all.

 

[Costas Athan]

Of course not. The amount of energy necessary to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is enormous, positively huge. Once air is out of the loop its gone, there is no way for it to get in at all.

How did you even think about water splitting? I'm talking about the very common phenomenon of vapors!

 

[Gillbot]

Of course not. The amount of energy necessary to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is enormous, positively huge. Once air is out of the loop its gone, there is no way for it to get in at all.

This

i had my old loop running for many years and once I got the bulk of the air out, it was fine.

 

[BrightCandle]

How did you even think about water splitting? I'm talking about the very common phenomenon of vapors!

Watercooling is not a good idea. Your understanding of the basic physics involved is very broken and I suspect the chance of you breaking your computer permanently is very high.

I hope you and your very broken computer, that results from this endeavour, will be very happy.

 

[Costas Athan]

Watercooling is not a good idea. Your understanding of the basic physics involved is very broken and I suspect the chance of you breaking your computer permanently is very high.

I hope you and your very broken computer, that results from this endeavour, will be very happy.

I don't think that plumbers who install central heating systems (which are way more complicated than PC water cooling systems) hold physics master's degree.

Anyway, instead of throwing insults point out the mistake I made. I talked about water vapor. It's a very common phenomenon. Where is the so huge mistake that made you believe I don't have any idea about physics?

 

[Micrornd]

Which types aren't suitable for PCs? The ones you mentioned with the ball and the rubberized seat or the one I gave the schematic for?

Neither are, they both operate the same way -

Bear in mind that these types are NOT suitable for PC liquid coolers unless you build a pressurized system that maintains the minimum needed to keep the autopurge closed, even when the system is off.
When the needed pressure is not maintained, this type (and all small one's are) opens to atmosphere, allowing air in and venting a small amount of liquid when starting back up.

The only real difference between the two is, the one you showed is a heavier duty unit with a longer lifespan and only is available in it's smallest size about the same size as your two fists put together, while the ball and seat variety is lighter duty and comes in sizes small enough to wrap your hand around.

Both types can allow air back into the system once the liquid used cools down if there is not enough pressure left to keep the float ball tight against the seat and will vent some liquid just before closing every time.
Both of these are designed for water systems that constantly replenish themselves for any losses, not for closed loop systems.

Auto-purging units are made for closed loop systems, but they are about the size of HTPCs and larger.

That's why I said good tubing, good initial manual purging practices, a decent reservoir are a much better way to go.

 

[Costas Athan]

@Micrornd

Thanks for the info!

 

[Costas Athan]

[...]

Auto-purging units are made for closed loop systems, but they are about the size of HTPCs and larger.

[...]

Actually Honeywell SuperVent PV075/U is for closed loops and it's relatively small: 6 29/32 in. high x 2 11/16 in. wide; Maximum diameter: 1 13/16 in. (176 mm high x 68 mm wide; Maximum diameter: 46 mm). At least not as big as an HTPC...

 

[PhIlLy ChEeSe]

PUt a T in the system use it to fill the loop, any air in the system will eventually go in the "fill throat". If your scared invest in a good air cooler.

 

[Agent11]

I would be worried about leaks, I imagine this sort of thing has to be kept stationary and upright at all times as well as only operate correctly at specific pressure ranges.

Cool idea though, maybe would be applicable for a hard line build, with perhaps a cut out in the side panel to show off your fancy air purging doohickey (as well as keep any venting outside the case).

 

[Meghan54]

How did you even think about water splitting? I'm talking about the very common phenomenon of vapors!

Pray tell, where is this water vapor coming from....where is it occurring? Certainly hasn't been a problem in any of the loops I've built and used over the last 6-7 years.

 

[Costas Athan]

I would be worried about leaks, I imagine this sort of thing has to be kept stationary and upright at all times as well as only operate correctly at specific pressure ranges.

Cool idea though, maybe would be applicable for a hard line build, with perhaps a cut out in the side panel to show off your fancy air purging doohickey (as well as keep any venting outside the case).

Yeah, these devices are usually installed on hard lines. But there will be some way to keep them stationary in a PC tower.

Pray tell, where is this water vapor coming from....where is it occurring? Certainly hasn't been a problem in any of the loops I've built and used over the last 6-7 years.

Vapor comes from water. Water evaporates more rapidly as its temperature rises and when the temperature reaches its boiling point vapors leave violently the body of the water.

Radiators of central heating systems have to be bled from time to time because vapors build in them and their performance decreases. (http://www.woodiesdiy.tv/How-to-Bleed-a-Radiator).

Of course the temperature of the water of a central heating system is much higher than the one of a PC water cooling loop. So probably the phenomenon won't be so intense in a PC's water cooling system. But since I haven't tested a water cooling system myself I can't tell how often air from the system must be bled. Maybe vapors are so little that there is no actual need for bleeding the system often...

 

[aigomorla]

is cheaper... does the exact same function as u are wishing for... and on top looks BLING!

 

[Costas Athan]

Is this a common reservoir? What's that thing in the middle?

 

[aigomorla]

Is this a common reservoir? What's that thing in the middle?

vortex breaker... so u dont get cyclone... or minimizes cyclones in my res's case.
That just the support.. i had to attach more stuff to it....

Top has a current separator with a silver coil.
Since i have water hitting the entire coil at 90 i get greater turbulence so i can pick up more silver ions each pass.

Res is tall enough to hold enough water... design on res is setup so most of the bubbles bleed out even if they are small and chopped up.... again.. the beauty of having a large res...

I have dual pumps on serial config with massive head pressure... about 21feet of head pressure, so even persistent bubbles inside Radiators get forced out.