Washington Times: Courts say NO RE-VOTE Thoughts? (link)

[Raspewtin]

<< Huge difference between being denied a vote and denying yourself a correct vote. >>



True, but many were actually denied a vote. There were several documented cases in Palm Beach when individuals voted incorrectly and were denied a replacement ballot (before submission).

 

[fdiskboy]

By the very PARTY they were going to vote for! Those elections were run by Democrats--and NOW they complain? You cannot have your cake and eat it too. It just can't work that way.

(BTW: I have yet to actually hear any actual cases of this happening. I have heard interviews with those who made mistakes, asked for a new ballot, and then cast a corrected vote.)

My question then is how many of those 19,000 spoiled ballots were cast by people who asked for a new ballot, received it, and voted it correctly? No one seems to be talking about that.

I'm sure that everyone realizes that EVERY single ballot has to be accounted for--none get tossed in the trash.

 

[fdiskboy]

Right.

And the other half, in an unprecedented time of national peace and prosperity didn't want the idiot vice-president to screw things up.

I know that you have counted all the absentee ballots, Red, what were the results of those across the country? Care to share?

 

[seewhy]

IMO Al Gore should win Florida and the presidency if everything is going according to what people are voting. It is clear that some people didn't get their vote counted, and unfortunately that happened in an area where Al Gore support is the strongest.

People should have the right to get their vote counted, but in this case, it would be extremely difficult to have a re-vote, even just in the county in question. This is like having a jury with an opinion trying to decide a case. The outcome may be correct, but the process is just not fair. I just don't see any way that Florida can re-do the whole election.

Actually, this is a good opportunity for Al Gore to show what kind of person he is. He knows that he won the popular vote, and he should have won Florida. But he also know if he insisted on fighting the election result, the whole country is going to be a mess. If he has the wisdom to come up and say, for the good of the country he will concede, it would win many people's heart and get himself a great chance in four years. But again, people's memory are short, and he and so many people did invested lots of money and energy which can make this option not possible. But I just think he can gain political asset if he concede now.

 

[ride525]

Why should Gore concede now ?

There are still apparently thousands of absentee ballots to be counted....

 

[sweetrobin]

good point fdiskboy .. I was wondering the same thing ... I think its will be detrimental to the voting practices of this nation if Gore pushes this issue ... If on the 17th it is decided that Bush wins Florida .. he just needs to let it go ... he is going to screw up his own chances of running again in 2004 if he proceeds to dragging this all through court .. not to mention making the US a good target .. you know that all these terrorists are sitting there thinking these guys have their heads shoved so far up their butts they can't even figure out whos going to be president .. now would be a great time to really fsck with them ...

 

[DefRef]

Nixon conceded in 1960 rather than demand the recount that would've shown the vote fraud in Chicago. (Anyone else notice that the son of the famous crooked mayor, Richard Daley, is Gore's campaign manager? Trying to steal one like the ol' man, eh?) 8 years later, he came back and won.

Gore should suck it up, if he were a man (he's not) and try to come back in '04. Problem is, he failed in 1988 on his own and he knows that he'd be unable to beat the new Queen of the Dems, Hillary!, so it's now or never.

Red: I agree. For the last two elections, the GOP has done serious damage to themselves and their message by putting up weak candidates. That's why some call them &quot;The Stupid Party&quot;.

 

[Raspewtin]

Along the lines Gore conceding, I was also thinking that if Bush supported a revote with Gore, and then Bush won, it might help negate the impact of being a president who lost the popular vote and won the electoral vote. Unless something spectactular happens, losing the popular vote limits Bush to one-term.

 

[Shuxclams]

<< Washington Times: >>

Thats nopt even a real newspaper, why not just ask the folks over at the New Republic, American Heritage Foundation or any of the other fringe rags. Heck I can come up with all kinds of crap if you want.

Now as far as a recount, it is near impossible that any judge woul;d do it.



SHUX

 

[Cknyc]

I dont agree with a revote. Bush won unfortunately(by a very slim margin). I think both candidates are unsuited for the job of president. Hopefully Bush wont screw the country up too much.

 

[AndrewR]

Raspewtin:

<< IMO, the wording of law in the article is weak and could easily be subject to interpretation. >>


That's EXACTLY why the courts will not rule against the election results in this case. The courts in the past in Florida (probably elsewhere as well) have been exceedingly reluctant about ruling on elections, and the threshold is EXCEPTIONALLY high for them to do so. The language may be vague, and that's enough of a reason to give deference to the election process which created the ballot, which was bipartisan.

That does not mean that the ballot will stay the same for the next election, obviously.

Shux: The same information has been reported on numerous other news sites -- CNN, MSNBC, ABC.

 

[somethingwitty]

a re-vote is not the only option. I believe florida law would allow a florida judge to declare that votes clearly intended for one candidate but given to another can be switched back. This is, technically and legally, only a state issue (just with a tiny bit of national implications), and I think florida has a precident for changing state votes.

 

[Russ]

<< There are still apparently thousands of absentee ballots to be counted.... >>



ride525,

You just keep hanging on to that faint hope. Just don't be too disappointed when those ballots break for Bush and put the final nail in Bore's coffin.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Russ]

somethingwitty,

If a Judge were crazy enough to overturn an election because of voter stupidity, the US Supreme Court would flush the decision so fast the vacuum would equal Hurricane Andrew.

Russ, NCNE

 

[luv2chill]

Somethingwitty



<< I believe florida law would allow a florida judge to declare that votes clearly intended for one candidate but given to another can be switched back. This is, technically and legally, only a state issue (just with a tiny bit of national implications), and I think florida has a precident for changing state votes. >>



Are you kidding? How could a vote be proven to be CLEARLY intended for one candidate but marked for another? How do you propose that be handled? &quot;Oh any vote for Pat Buchanon must be a mistake, so we'll just assume that they meant to vote for Al Gore and punch the other hole.&quot;

That is crazy and it would be a frosty day if it ever happened in this country. And oh yeah... pray tell where in Florida law you would see a precedent for taking such action?

l2c

 

[ride525]

<< You just keep hanging on to that faint hope. Just don't be too disappointed when those ballots break for Bush and put the final nail in Bore's coffin. >>



Don't worry, I won't be...

 

[TimberWolf]

Historical Note:

Literacy used to be a requirement for exercising voting rights (Quite appropriately abolished, as the primary purpose was to limit voting by the poor and minorities).

**********************************

Primary reason the vote count is taking so long:

3000 Floridians are fumbling for a reason why they failed to cast a valid vote for their candidate, running against a guy they felt was &quot;too stupid to be President&quot;.

**********************************

Reported on National Public Radio multiple times on 11/9:

The catalyst for this &quot;mass hallucination&quot; of incorrect votes was that Buchanon garnered &quot;a disproportionate number of votes&quot;, relative to the rest of Florida's counties.

However, in his previous Presidential bids, he had similar results for this particular county - indicating that there may simply be a cadre of hard-core Buchanon supporters residing there.

**********************************

Al Gore has never held any position where &quot;Leadership&quot; was required - or demonstrated. He has always been a &quot;second banana&quot; (and no, presiding over the Senate is a largely ceremonial role; with an experienced member present to advise on Parlimentary procedure).

IMO, assuming that a final count has Bush preserving a slim margin, Gore's most astute political move would be to use that moment of focused national attention to refuse to be a party to the legal challenges.

Absolutely no one would forget his &quot;sacrifice of personal ambition for the good of the country&quot; - unlike Nixon, who made his decision without public fanfare, and never received due credit for it.

He would be able to work within his party (and in the public eye) to refine his message and goals, perhaps even taking a role in forging some bi-partisan agreements, and thereby demonstrating his &quot;leadership&quot; across party lines. Any mis-steps by the Bush administration would invite the inevitable &quot;I-told-you-so&quot; comparisons without Gore ever having to say it.

And he is ideally positioned for an '04 run (with Hillary as Veep). <T/Wolf shudders>

I ought to start writing horror novels . . .

 

[somethingwitty]

look, I'm not saying a judge would do this...and I realize that it would be overturned. All I'm saying is I Think I recall hearing that florida has a precident for changing the numbers on a election to match voter intentions. Or, at the least, that the option to do so is more viable than a re-vote...

personally, I acknowledge that Bush will win anyway, due to the likely republican absentees. hopefully, when those come in, he'll be ahead by enough to avoid the revote/changing the numbers issue, because, although I'd like Gore to win, I would not like to see ANY candidate win like this. To dumb it down-if bush wins after the absentees, bush should be president, and if Gore wins those, Gore should be president.

 

[AndrewR]

somethingwitty: The precedent you are referring to was an election (a local one, mind you, not Presidential) a few years back where there was some irregularity in the absentee ballots. The judge threw out all absentee ballots -- he (she? no idea) did not change anyone's vote.

I think the only precedent from that would be to completely throw out the results from that county, which doesn't help Gore any.

 

[IronMike]

There appears to be some precedent for the courts intervention in election results. In Massachusetts a republican was defeated in a primary election by use of the same punch card system used in Florida. In that case the cards were not cleanly punched and had only indentations in the cards. The courts ruled that voters had been denied their rights. Judges examined every card and counted the indentations as a vote and overturned the election results.

 

[AndrewR]

IronMike: Massachussetts law is completely inapplicable to Florida courts, and state courts will rarely cite to another state as controlling authority for reasons of pride or what have you. Since it is the only on point case, though, they would look at it for the reasoning, but it really means very little for Florida law. Of course, I already see some major differences between the two situations, though I'd have to read the case to confirm them. Do you have a cite?

Besides, the MA state flag is the hammer and sickle on a red field, or it should be at any rate.

 

[Shazam]

My God.

What is wrong with you people??

Gore didn't win. Get the hell over it.

 

[ride525]

Bush hasn't won.....yet

 

[x86guy]

Hell, I even forgot who I voted for. C'mon people, If we can't decide who our next president will be, what does the constitution say we do in a case like this? All you bleeding heart liberals (Democrats) quit crying on who you think the next president should be. Just because you can't read a simple ballot dosen't mean their was any fraud involved. Let's just elect a President and get on with the show for 4 more years, good or bad. We have four years to iron out the details.

 

[skemlawn]

I didn't vote so I can't really technically complain, but sometimes when something is totally FUBAR, it is just easy to start over.