was this shooting justified?

[spidey07]

So you're saying if I enter your house lawfully, but then you eject me and I simply refuse to leave, making no other threat, you can lawfully shoot me?

I'd love to see the state law that says that. If so, it means I could lure a dozen people into my house, kill them all and say "hey, they were here unlawfully!" and get off scott free. Pretty sure castle doctrine doesn't work that way.

Then you would not be in my house unlawfully initially. If you did not leave, I could threaten you with a weapon to make you leave as you are now trespassing (this is specifically covered in my state's laws).

god I love my state.

 

[Elganja]

You do not have the right to execute someone who is not posing a threat to you. You shoot after they stop attacking, it's murder.

and how do you know they no longer pose a threat? wait and see if they attack you and potentially cause you harm?

if an intruder enters your home, I have zero qualms if the homeowner kills the intruder to ensure his safety... if you don't kill the intruder your aren't 100% safe IMHO.

 

[RampantAndroid]

So you're saying if I enter your house lawfully, but then you eject me and I simply refuse to leave, making no other threat, you can lawfully shoot me?

I'd love to see the state law that says that. If so, it means I could lure a dozen people into my house, kill them all and say "hey, they were here unlawfully!" and get off scott free. Pretty sure castle doctrine doesn't work that way.

No. If you entered lawfully, that's fine. I then say "get out" and am NOT in fear for my life, there's no way I can shoot. The key here is reasonably fear for my life, or other's lives. If I let you in, and then you tell me "I like to kill people and eat their brains with fava beans and a nice Chianti. Do you have any Chianti on hand?" then I might well be in fear for my life. (forgetting that I'd have to prove you said it) and I ask you to leave, you don't...I'm in fear for my life, I can shoot.

A more simple example being, I let you in. You pull a knife out and threaten me with it. I'm in fear for my life, I can defend with lethal force (in WA, I can.) I cannot just decide I'm done with you and say "get out or I'll kill ya." In the case where you refuse to leave, and just sit there...that's an issue for the police to deal with. If they deem force to be needed, let them do it.

Then you would not be in my house unlawfully initially. If you did not leave, I could threaten you with a weapon to make you leave as you are now trespassing (this is specifically covered in my state's laws).

god I love my state.

Uhh...threaten, perhaps. Fire? Not without being in fear for your life.

 

[spidey07]

No. If you entered lawfully, that's fine. I then say "get out" and am NOT in fear for my life, there's no way I can shoot. The key here is reasonably fear for my life, or other's lives. If I let you in, and then you tell me "I like to kill people and eat their brains with fava beans and a nice Chianti. Do you have any Chianti on hand?" then I might well be in fear for my life. (forgetting that I'd have to prove you said it) and I ask you to leave, you don't...I'm in fear for my life, I can shoot.

A more simple example being, I let you in. You pull a knife out and threaten me with it. I'm in fear for my life, I can defend with lethal force (in WA, I can.) I cannot just decide I'm done with you and say "get out or I'll kill ya." In the case where you refuse to leave, and just sit there...that's an issue for the police to deal with. If they deem force to be needed, let them do it.



Uhh...threaten, perhaps. Fire? Not without being in fear for your life.

Trespassing is specifically covered in my state's laws. I can announce and threaten with a weapon and if you do not leave, I can shoot.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Trespassing is specifically covered in my state's laws. I can announce and threaten with a weapon and if you do not leave, I can shoot.

What state?

 

[soundforbjt]

What state?

Spidey's from a mostly redneck red state...Kentucky

 

[spidey07]

What state?

Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.

503.080 Protection of property.
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, in a dwelling, building or upon real property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts; or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts.

 

[Scotteq]

Not in my state. I've posted the laws about presumption of threat. Being in my house unlawfully = automatic threat by law.

Enjoy your free 3 Squares and Buttsex for your 10 to 20.

 

[spidey07]

Enjoy your free 3 Squares and Buttsex for your 10 to 20.

I already posted the law for you to read about presumption of threat.

Your understanding of my state's laws are very different than your understanding of yours.

Again...all of this is covered, scenario, by scenario in CCDW classes in my state. Not that it matters when it comes to castle doctrine in MY state. We don't take kindly to trespassing, attempted arson or kidnapping as these are codified into law in MY state as OK to shoot.

You're from NJ, you're understanding of my state's laws is very poor. I've posted them for you. In your state? Yeah, you'd be going to jail. In my state? Nope.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.

That says force, and in law force and deadly force are two very different things.

You should NEVER be allowed to use lethal force when someone just walks in and sits on your lawn doing nothing. Lethal force should be reserved for when you are in fear for your life, or the lives of other innocents. That is to say, if someone breaks in...that's a good reason to shoot. Just because they sat on your lawn and didn't leave...that shit don't fly in my book. I'm ALL FOR DEADLY FORCE BEING LAWFUL....in proper scenarios. In WA, I think we have a good set of laws...and it's all based around fear for life.

EDIT: Should have researched before even responding to you. I was dead on. What you posted doesn't pertain to lethal force. Read the rest of 503.080:

The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable
under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom
such force is used is:
(a) Attempting to dispossess him of his dwelling otherwise than under a claim of
right to its possession; or
(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony
involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to
KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or
(c) Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in
his possession.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she
has a right to be.

 

[Scotteq]

I already posted the law for you to read about presumption of threat.

< shrug > You absolutely may claim Castle Doctrine as your affirmative defense when you get to your trial. But shooting people (in the back, in your example) who aren't a threat is still manslaughter at the very least.

3 squares and all you can take.

 

[RampantAndroid]

< shrug > You absolutely may claim Castle Doctrine as your affirmative defense when you get to your trial. But shooting people (in the back, in your example) who aren't a threat is still manslaughter at the very least.

3 squares and all you can take.

This. I can see where laws about shooting burglars comes from. Hell, I can kinda almost agree with them, since I'd love to see the day where theft results in potential death - either theft will go down, or the burglars will just get better armed...and I'd bet on the former.

Regardless, you cannot shoot someone just because they're there.

 

[spidey07]

< shrug > You absolutely may claim Castle Doctrine as your affirmative defense when you get to your trial. But shooting people (in the back, in your example) who aren't a threat is still manslaughter at the very least.

3 squares and all you can take.

You ignore the lawful presumption of threat to life as codified in my states laws.

You are wrong. In my state and many others. Also depending on state is not an affirmative defense.

 

[soundforbjt]

Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.

Where does it say deadly force? I see physical force, but not deadly force.

edit: Rampant beat me to it.

 

[Scotteq]

You ignore the lawful presumption of threat to life as codified in my states laws.

You are wrong. In my state and many others. Also depending on state is not an affirmative defense.

LIke I said - You're entitled....


For your sake, I hope you never have cause to learn how it really works.

 

[spidey07]

This. I can see where laws about shooting burglars comes from. Hell, I can kinda almost agree with them, since I'd love to see the day where theft results in potential death - either theft will go down, or the burglars will just get better armed...and I'd bet on the former.

Regardless, you cannot shoot someone just because they're there.

If they are there unlawfully, absolutely I can. If they entered or attempted to enter the threshold unlawfully, absolutely I can.

Again, this is all covered by my states CCDW classes and explained in detail.

My state's laws aren't yours. I understand mine.

 

[Number1]

In America we don't put people in jail for killing people that break into out houses. I feel bad for these kids and their families but they devalued their own lives when they decided to enter a stranger's house without permission. This is really a sad case all around, but the old man was well within his rights to not only shoot them but also to kill them. Even with them shot his safety was is serious question. What if he went to call the police and the girl got up stabbed him in the back? I'm sorry guys, I want to feel sympathy for the suspects, but he did nothing illegal.

Thsi is demented. He had every right to neutralize the threat. Anything extra is just plain murder.

Have you seen this video?
Pharmacist shoot burgler

The Pharmacist is now a convicted murderer.

 

[RampantAndroid]

If they are there unlawfully, absolutely I can. If they entered or attempted to enter the threshold unlawfully, absolutely I can.

Again, this is all covered by my states CCDW classes and explained in detail.

My state's laws aren't yours. I understand mine.

Not by trespassing alone you cannot. You're ignoring the above post where I pointed out the remainder of 503.080 which DOES pertain to when lethal force becomes lawful.

You ignore the lawful presumption of threat to life as codified in my states laws.

You are wrong. In my state and many others. Also depending on state is not an affirmative defense.

Sure, if you can demonstrate that you felt threatened by them trespassing, sure. But if it's someone in your back yard chasing their dog that got off it's leash, you cannot demonstrate fear for your life by that alone. Especially if you have to grab your gun, open your door and shoot 100 feet to get them. But from what I read of KY's laws you cannot simply state that someone's presence alone, especially in the mentioned scenario where you invite someone in, and then ask them to leave, is enough to put you in fear for your life. Being paranoid is not an excuse.

Where does it say deadly force? I see physical force, but not deadly force.

edit: Rampant beat me to it.

Exactly. Lethal force in KY is allowed in certain cases. I DO NOT see "he's in my yard doing nothing" in the list of lawful reasons to use lethal force.

 

[spidey07]

I know my states laws. You guys are coming up with "what if"

My knowledge of my states law will dictate what I do.

I see you're trying to divert the presumption of threat by being in home unlawfully and have now moved outside the threshold.

Big difference. Big diversion.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I know my states laws. You guys are coming up with "what if"

My knowledge of my states law will dictate what I do.

...[insert jackie chan wth photo here]

I posted the laws of your state, you are wrong. I hope you never have to learn this in court, not for your well being, but for the well being of the poor sod you will have killed.

Then you would not be in my house unlawfully initially. If you did not leave, I could threaten you with a weapon to make you leave as you are now trespassing (this is specifically covered in my state's laws).

god I love my state.

Produce the exact section of KY law covering this. Because you have not.

 

[OutHouse]

Kentucky - 503.080

This is all covered in Kentucky CCDW classes.

503.080 Protection of property.
(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, in a dwelling, building or upon real property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts; or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts.

dude do you know the difference between physical force and deadly force? in the eyes of the law they are entirely different animals. also subsection B specifically states while taking IE stealing. it does not say you can shoot them just because they are trespassing and refuse to leave.

edit: damn beaten by rampant

 

[OutHouse]

for the OP, yes the guy should do time. he went way over what self defense is all about. especially deliberately placing a gun under the chicks chin and firing the last fatal shot oh and after he had already shot her 6 times.

 

[spidey07]

...[insert jackie chan wth photo here]

I posted the laws of your state, you are wrong. I hope you never have to learn this in court, not for your well being, but for the well being of the poor sod you will have killed.



Produce the exact section of KY law covering this. Because you have not.

Yes I have. Once I order you to leave and you do not I can draw.

That's use of force and allowed. If you do not leave, you are now unlawfully in my home. This exact scenario is covered in my state. If you so much as flinch or threaten I can shoot.

Hot states laws are very different than mine.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Having the racist spidey on ignore isn't of any value if you keep quoting him.

 

[Jadow]

if i was on the jury, i'd never convict