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Was there an Indian Holocaust in America?

Mai72

Mai72

Lifer
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/American_Indian_Holocaust

Pretty Interesting. It's something that's not really talked about too much. How many natives actually perished at the hands of the new settlers?

Estimates of the pre-Columbian population vary widely, though uncontroversial studies place the figure for North, Central and South America at a combined 50 million to 100 million,[1] with scholarly estimates of 2 million[2] to 18 million[3] for North America alone. An estimated 80% to 90% of this population died after the arrival of Europeans,[4] overwhelmingly from factors beyond most human control — e.g., smallpox epidemics[5] — Europeans, especially the Spanish conquistadors, also killed thousands deliberately
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I've always wondered if the Indians mounted a united front against the invaders, how long would they have lasted? In the beginning they had the numbers but lacked the technology. I've always found it amazing that Cortez was able to kill off the Aztecs with only a handful of men. Yes, smallpox contributed to many deaths. It was still an amazing feat.
 
Newbian said:
So wait... is rational wiki the wiki version for conspiracy nuts or something?
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Our purpose here at RationalWiki includes:

Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement.
Documenting the full range of crank ideas.
Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism.
Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media.

We welcome contributors, and encourage those who disagree with us to register and engage in constructive dialogue.
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http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
 
Newbian said:
So wait... is rational wiki the wiki version for conspiracy nuts or something?
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Is that a general comment about rational wiki or specific to the topic in the OP?

Because there was undoubtedly a genocide in the Americas, unless you believe that tens of millions of people just vanished.
 
WelshBloke said:
Is that a general comment about rational wiki or specific to the topic in the OP?

Because there was undoubtedly a genocide in the Americas, unless you believe that tens of millions of people just vanished.
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I don't think you can call it genocide when God's got your back. That term only applies to other people. We're wholesome champions of justice.
 
You can't call it genocide when they die from European diseases brought over as a side effect of Europeans landing there.
 
Mai72 said:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/American_Indian_Holocaust

Pretty Interesting. It's something that's not really talked about too much. How many natives actually perished at the hands of the new settlers?



I've always wondered if the Indians mounted a united front against the invaders, how long would they have lasted? In the beginning they had the numbers but lacked the technology. I've always found it amazing that Cortez was able to kill off the Aztecs with only a handful of men. Yes, smallpox contributed to many deaths. It was still an amazing feat.
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When you raid the surrounding populations for live human sacrifices it shouldn't be a surprise when they ally with the invader. Bonus points for Cortez when the Aztecs thought he might be a God fortold by their prophecies.
 
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Did 7-11 ever file chapter 7?

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I don't think it was a genocide. We didn't systematically capture, haul them off, then kill them all by the mass. Was it really "right" of us to do? I guess morally, no not really. But then again, if they hadn't, we may not all be sitting where we are sitting right now.
 
JEDIYoda said:
There might have been a genocide. In its loosest of terms.
Yet -- there were never tens of millions of Indians....link please!!
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If you were to count the natives from South to North America it's at least a few million easily. Were there tens of millions? I doubt it but we really don't know for sure. I do know that there were a lot and we nearly wiped them out. It was stated that at the lowest point there were 1% native population left in America.
 
z1ggy said:
I don't think it was a genocide. We didn't systematically capture, haul them off, then kill them all by the mass. Was it really "right" of us to do? I guess morally, no not really. But then again, if they hadn't, we may not all be sitting where we are sitting right now.
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What about manifest density?

In the end they lost and we won. We told them to either follow our lead or else you were going to eat dirt. They didn't have much choice.
 
Mai72 said:
What about manifest density?

In the end they lost and we won. We told them to either follow our lead or else you were going to eat dirt. They didn't have much choice.
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Think about this:

Gengis Kahn is estimated to have killed 10's of millions of people via his reign, in just a few decades.

How is that any different (better or worse) than what European settlers did when they reached the Americas?
 
z1ggy said:
Think about this:

Gengis Kahn is estimated to have killed 10's of millions of people via his reign, in just a few decades.

How is that any different (better or worse) than what European settlers did when they reached the Americas?
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I'm not sure if your trying to say that Gengis Kahn wasn't so bad or that Europeans in the Americas weren't so bad there. :\
 
When millions die from diseases, it's not a holocaust, any more than millions dying in europe from the black plague was a 'holocaust'.
 
z1ggy said:
I don't think it was a genocide. We didn't systematically capture, haul them off, then kill them all by the mass. Was it really "right" of us to do? I guess morally, no not really. But then again, if they hadn't, we may not all be sitting where we are sitting right now.
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Yea you are right, we didn't haul them, we just killed them right on the spot.
 
WelshBloke said:
I'm not sure if your trying to say that Gengis Kahn wasn't so bad or that Europeans in the Americas weren't so bad there. :\
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I think he was implying that most people consider Genghis Kahn to be a brutal person, yet don't think of the conquering of America in the same light... so there's a lot of bias with how America came to be.
 
z1ggy said:
How is that any different (better or worse) than what European settlers did when they reached the Americas?
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Fact is the Mongolians often gave other cultures the possibility of joining the Mongolian Khanate as true subjects with full peace and religious freedom. Indians usually never got much of the same possible treatment as the subjects who surrendered to the Mongolians.
 
WelshBloke said:
I'm not sure if your trying to say that Gengis Kahn wasn't so bad or that Europeans in the Americas weren't so bad there. :\
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I'm saying both are "bad". Both did though what humans have always done, and really still continue to do, which is expand & conquer. However, one man when looked back on is seen as a "killer" whereas Columbus, etc are seen as liberators. We even have a holiday for it.

Vdubchaos said:
Yea you are right, we didn't haul them, we just killed them right on the spot.
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Yep, as usual, you're just spot on!

A specific example was Cortes' invasion of Mexico. Before his arrival, the Mexican population is estimated to have been around 25 to 30 million. Fifty years later, the Mexican population was reduced to 3 million, mainly by infectious disease.
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Vdubchaos said:
Yea you are right, we didn't haul them, we just killed them right on the spot.
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We either killed them on the spot or put them on reservations which weren't fit to live on. Sadly, many died from smallpox and other diseases that the Europeans brought over unwittingly.

I don't think it was a holocaust on the same level as the Jewish holocaust during WW2. Does it matter though? A death is a death. Whether you're being gassed in a shower, or you're dying via smallpox you're still dead.

The Europeans who came to America had no patience for the natives. They thought they were savages. Backwards people who didn't know better. They wanted their land and the natives were either going to be assimilated or wiped off the face of the earth. They didn't stand much of chance at assimilation. I doubt the Europeans would have given them that chance.
 
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