Originally posted by: Idontcare
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Look, if you are saying that you just quoted,
and only used my post as a motivation to make your points,
for every member that said "that it is possible to characterize some parts of the P4 design with the term engineering failure")
then i misunderstood!
But with the technique you used, you can understand that it was far from obvious what you meant! (I highly doubt that the majority who read your original post, will think that your points directed not only to me!)
Going by your
joined date it is understandable that you are not all that familiar with my posting style, or that of some of the other long-term posters here going by the rate of similar misunderstandings you appear to be experiencing in these AT forums (that is no slight against you, just my observation)...but surely you have noticed that not many other posters outside of yourself are finding themselves in the position in which they too feel compelled to write these long semi-combative semi-defensive posts regarding their impressions of others making personal attacks and misquotes and suppression of free speech, etc.
No one can tell you how to feel about other's posting styles...but if you don't invest the time and effort to just sit back, relax a little, and absorb some of the nuances as to how the community in these forums have evolved to operate then you are just going to keep getting frustrated and defensive over and over again.
That's not to say you don't have valid points regarding communication techniques that give rise to more miscommunication than communication, we "old timers" get lazy sometimes and that surely doesn't help anyone understand our posts any better, but I am just trying to give you some advice to reduce your stress level in the coming weeks.
(and since it need be stated explicitly to avoid misunderstanding, I am quoting you and yes I hope you take to heart my attempt to give you some advices but at the same time I drafted my post above with the intentions of it addressing all new posters who have joined the forums and/or lurkers who are considering joining the forums...hence it is a public message and not a pm solely directed towards you)
Oh, I am familiar with your posting style (regarding your posts in the last 25 days that i am a member in AT forum)
And in fact i said before 10 days or something, that i like most of your topics,
publicly! (You can check it)
But this fact,
has nothing to do with all (7) of my previous points,
in my previous reply to you!
It has to do, with only 1 of my points!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my first reply to you, I had
7 main themes that i was replying to your points:
THEME 1
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Originally posted by: Idontcare
There isn't anything unique or special there. All IC design engineers find themselves in a competitive environment, if they weren't then they personally would not have a job to perform.
I just said that the competitive environment of Intel & AMD (X86 CPU market) is in a
completely different league than the competitive environment of a student of engineering or even a plain engineer,
(meaning that although a student of engineering operates in a competitive environment,
the stakes (and the problems that must be solved) are a lot higher in the global X86 CPU market!)
No reply!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEME 2
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Originally posted by: Idontcare
MODEL3 I think you are conflating the philosophical concept of engineering "the absolute best" cpu with the actual purpose these companies operate (i.e. profits)...engineers aren't asked to build the best of anything, they are asked to build the best they can devise while operating within a given budget and timeline.
I never said the "
absolute best" cpu!
On the contrary, I said
better than the competition!
You mean that one of the main goals of Intel engineers isn't "
to try deliver a better performing CPU than the competition"?
Or you think that they don't care?
Like I said, certainly they can't control, what AMD can do for their designs, but they certainly can research and analyze the possibilities, about what AMD can do in a future architecture!
Based on that analysis (and of cource on
many, many other factors) , they must design a CPU architecture, that has also the aim "to sustain Intel's CPU performance superiority".
No reply!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEME 3
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Originally posted by: Idontcare
The tradeoffs that were made in the decision tree that evolved throughout the development of the netburst microarchitecture is something we have zero insight into. But we know tradeoffs were made, a balance between creating a product that was capable of commanding certain pricepoints (asp's) while at the same time not taking 10yrs to develop or $60B to develop or costing $1000 per chip to manufacture.
I agree with all your above points.
No reply! (which is natural since we agree)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
THEME 4
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Originally posted by: Idontcare
How to criticize the tradeoff decisions that were made when we/you/us have no knowledge of the motivation and justification that went into making those decisions?
Look, I am just a guy without a technical background, that I enjoy technology, and I like to spent some time in a technology Forum like AT to kill a couple of hours trying to have fun in the process!
It's not like that anyone at Intel care about my "point of view",
so what harm can do to express my "point of view", other than being right or wrong?
You are taking too seriously the matter!
No reply!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEME 5
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Originally posted by: Idontcare
It takes an extraordinary degree of self-confidence, ignorance enabled arrogance as I refer to it, to feel one is so supremely endowed with the equivalent insight provided by the cumulative education and experience that was brought to bear by thousands of Intel engineers, marketeers, and project managers over the decade or so that netburst was worked on.
Even if I was a lead engineer at Intel who worked directly on P4 design I wouldn't fathom myself as being privy to the entire hierarchy of business decisions and tradeoffs that went into dictating budgets and timelines (which then would require me to make judicious engineering choices in terms of how I budgeted my time for improving performance/watt innovations) for the entire product line.
Where did i say that i feel:
"
so supremely endowed with the equivalent insight provided by the cumulative education and experience that was brought to bear by thousands of Intel engineers, marketeers, and project managers over the decade or so that netburst was worked on"?
On the contrary, i have
countless times said that I have absolutely no tech background, and i do all this "forum participation" for Fun (and to learn something in the process for tech and English language)
You think that
only equivalent insighted people (with Intel engineers) should make an estimation?
No this is against Freedom of speech!
All persons can make estimations!
And your reply:
Originally posted by: Idontcare
by no means was every sentence in my post crafted as some effort to stifle your ambitions to characterize/criticize anything you feel is worth your efforts to do so.
To put it mildly, I think you are over reacting just a tad. If you need me to expound on it even further then hit me up in pm and I will gladly do so.
My ambitions?
Like i care!
I already told you that what i do is
just for Fun (and now i don't have it any more!,
i should have followed apoppin's suggestion )
In my "point of view",
you are the one that over reacting just a tad, with
all your previous post in this topic!
Do you think that i am the
only one that said, that you are taking too seriously the matter?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEME 6
Originally posted by: MODEL3
And don't you think that my comment:
I just love "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" (like me)! :laugh:
had the exact same purpose with what you are trying to say?
Don't you think that my purpose was, to critisize in a satirical way, what I did?
Why you are taking soo seriously all these things?
No reply!
As you can see i could already saw from my first post, in what ways my reply could heart the feelings, of an engineer that reads this topic!
(I mean did you understood that with the satire that i did to myself, i was also trying to say that
everyone must take this topic
in a lighter weight?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEME 7
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Now about the "labeling"!
What can I say?
I just said (like many many guys here) that it is possible to characterize some parts of the P4 design with the term "engineering failure"
And you called me (only me) a person with "extraordinary degree of self-confidence, ignorance / enabled arrogance"
And your reply:
Originally posted by: Idontcare
MODEL3 you are taking everything stated after a person quotes you as if every single word in their post is directed solely towards you.
That is not what a public forum is about. If my post was intended to be solely directed towards you then I would have sent it to you as a pm.
1. O.K. from now on if my intention is to solely direct toward someone my points I will pm!
Are the 1200 messages enough? What's your number (1195)?
Just kidding!
I mean if someone quotes another's person post,
and
start presenting his arguments up to that point,
and
then suddenly his intention is to say words like:
extraordinary degree of self-confidence, ignorance / enabled arrogance
not to the person that was arguing up to that point, doesn't have to use a writing technique to imply
clearly that?
Of cource you say:
Originally posted by: Idontcare
That's not to say you don't have valid points regarding communication techniques that give rise to more miscommunication than communication, we "old timers" get lazy sometimes and that surely doesn't help anyone understand our posts any better, but I am just trying to give you some advice to reduce your stress level in the coming weeks.
So if i have valid points, why it is my fault that we disscommunicated?
In my "point of view" it is more your fault with the technique you used!
Sure, I can understand that you "old timers" get lazy sometimes (and that surely doesn't help anyone understand your posts any better)
That's why I said immediately after your reply:
Originally posted by: MODEL3
Anyway, you cleared the situation!
No need to go private, your word is good!
2. You are saying that this particular point was not directed solely towards me!
This doesn't change anything at all, essentially
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