Was the Iraq War Moral?

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Well, I read it, and my opinion is that it was not a moral war, which is an interesting concept in itself. Justifiable based on fact and imminent threat, coupled with genuine lack of options might be more appropriate. Nevertheless, there are historical precidents. We have traditionally fought in very specific circumstances. Whatever was found after the fact (and something will), that will most likely be the justification for attack. My thoughts on this is pretty much as if the police break into a house and search it, find something illegal, and people justify it even though it goes against obtaining a warrant. Now some will say, "yes, but we have a constitution which applies to US citizens and not to Iraqis" Well, true, but the question is not is this war legal, but moral. The judgement to go to war is a prospective judgement, nothing more or less. If they find a hundred friggin H-bombs, that were NOT known BEFORE the fact, then there was no justification based in history, with the possible exception of the Spanish American war. We went to war because we could. We could not be defeated, and the risk to the US public in terms of military retaliation was nill. Therefore there were few direct negatives for this war, so Bush wanted it, people are fearful because the mirage of invulnerability went away with 9/11, and the fearful followed the desire of this administration to eliminate Saddam. We did it because we could, but there was no moral high ground. Of course, it instantly became about the liberation of Iraq once the war started. That is now what many here and in the administration use for morality. History is being rewritten on the fly.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
0
0
yes the moral reasons for doing this were always much clearer than any others given. Nobody would suggest the Iraqi's were not immorally oppressed under Saddam.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Great article, thanks NSF4. It's funny, I subscribe to Business Week but I missed this. Must be in my to-do pile.

One thing she didn't address was the role the U.N. plays in considering morality. It would have been interesting to get her take on this: we went to war to enforce a U.N. resolution even though the U.N. didn't authorize the attack. I obviously have an opinion, but I would have loved to see her analysis.

Worth a read for supporters and opponents alike.
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Very interesting article. It does a good job of portraying the "grey" ethics of this issue and how it is not just black and white. Clearly there is a lot for everyone to consider.

Cheers,

Andy
 

HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
Read it.

Whether I agree or not is irrelevant, but aren't ethicists a bit like economists? If you pick ten random ethicists you could easily get ten different viewpoints. This particular ethicist didn't actually say whether the war was moral or not and I don't believe asking nine more would get you any more of a direct answer because the facts aren't all in at this time. Unfortunately, all of the facts will probably never be known.

 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
Read it.

Whether I agree or not is irrelevant, but aren't ethicists a bit like economists? If you pick ten random ethicists you could easily get ten different viewpoints. This particular ethicist didn't actually say whether the war was moral or not and I don't believe asking nine more would get you any more of a direct answer because the facts aren't all in at this time. Unfortunately, all of the facts will probably never be known.

But isn't that the point - the whole issue has several issues that could in themselves be interpreted to give/take morality away from this war. This would have been a whole lot harder with WW2 (as was pointed out). IMHO this only serves to demonstrate why there is so much debate about "morality" and whether the war was "just". There is no black and white good vs evil answer that is unequivocable. All you can do is analyse your personal beliefs, pick a camp and then sit in it waiting for any evidence to help you jusify your decsion whilst at the same time remaining open-minded towards the possiblility you could have been wrong all along because this has yet (and will probably never be totally) to be a clear issue.

What keeps me interested/appalled is that so many on either side refuse to see or acknowledge as relevent the concerns of the other side - especially when they refuse to see the grey nature of the problem. This especially goes for the politicians who in a number of cases would like to lower our IQ by 50% and have us believe there is no merit to any other viewpoint than the official governement one.

Anyone see this differently?

Cheers,

Andy
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
History is being rewritten on the fly.

No, I don't belive History is being "rewritten" but yes History is being written.

We stopped short of an "invasion" in 91 because Saddam agreed in NO uncertain terms to disarm. He didn't comply and now reaps the consequences of his actions. That my freinds is all the moral(and legal) justification needed. He said he would disarm and we said we would let him stay, Saddam broke his end of the deal so we removed him from power. End of story.

I'll ask this:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT punish those that directly violate cease-fire terms?

CkG
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
History is being rewritten on the fly.

No, I don't belive History is being "rewritten" but yes History is being written.

We stopped short of an "invasion" in 91 because Saddam agreed in NO uncertain terms to disarm. He didn't comply and now reaps the consequences of his actions. That my freinds is all the moral(and legal) justification needed. He said he would disarm and we said we would let him stay, Saddam broke his end of the deal so we removed him from power. End of story.

I'll ask this:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT punish those that directly violate cease-fire terms?

CkG

By "punish" lets say "kill" and by "those" lets say "the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country (however unintentional)".

Now it reads (more explicitly) as:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT kill the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country that directly violate cease-fire terms?

Well, I would have to say that (and the only way I can best keep objective is to consider a court case type scenario) deadly force should only be used in self-defence. This then poses the question would the actions be in self-defence? You could argue that WMD make this action justified as Iraq is a big threat. That's fine. You could also argue that the WMD must not just be alleged, but the evidence must be submitted in open court - so not until admissable evidence (and this is debatable also) of WMD is displayed does lethal force become a "moral" punishment for the crime of breaking a cease-fire agreement. Some lesser punishment should then be sought. Not particualrly palletable - but if someone commits a burglary everytime they are released from prison for the previous offense - sooner or later they'll go away for a long time/for good. This doesn't mean they should be shot for being a serial offender. Again it depends on the crime.

The arguement could go on and I'm sure good cases could be made for both sides. Therefore, this one issue alone IMHO shows the kind of doubts of over the "moral status" of starting a war. As I said above, the arguements are not black and white.

Cheers,

Andy

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
History is being rewritten on the fly.

No, I don't belive History is being "rewritten" but yes History is being written.

We stopped short of an "invasion" in 91 because Saddam agreed in NO uncertain terms to disarm. He didn't comply and now reaps the consequences of his actions. That my freinds is all the moral(and legal) justification needed. He said he would disarm and we said we would let him stay, Saddam broke his end of the deal so we removed him from power. End of story.

I'll ask this:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT punish those that directly violate cease-fire terms?

CkG

By "punish" lets say "kill" and by "those" lets say "the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country (however unintentional)".

Now it reads (more explicitly) as:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT kill the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country that directly violate cease-fire terms?

Well, I would have to say that (and the only way I can best keep objective is to consider a court case type scenario) deadly force should only be used in self-defence. This then poses the question would the actions be in self-defence? You could argue that WMD make this action justified as Iraq is a big threat. That's fine. You could also argue that the WMD must not just be alleged, but the evidence must be submitted in open court - so not until admissable evidence (and this is debatable also) of WMD is displayed does lethal force become a "moral" punishment for the crime of breaking a cease-fire agreement. Some lesser punishment should then be sought. Not particualrly palletable - but if someone commits a burglary everytime they are released from prison for the previous offense - sooner or later they'll go away for a long time/for good. This doesn't mean they should be shot for being a serial offender. Again it depends on the crime.

The arguement could go on and I'm sure good cases could be made for both sides. Therefore, this one issue alone IMHO shows the kind of doubts of over the "moral status" of starting a war. As I said above, the arguements are not black and white.

Cheers,

Andy

No - your rewriting isn't even close. We sanctioned him - he didn't comply, we put inspectors on the grounds to verify compliance - he didn't comply. We gave him plenty of time to consider full compliance with the agreement and he consistantly defied us (and the UN ;) )
What kind of "moral" options did we have left?
More sanctions? Nope - it's been shown that Saddam and regime( as well as a few European countried;) ) ignored sanctions.
More Inspectors? Nope - They weren't given FULL access!

If we aren't going to back up our words with action then our words are meaningless (much like the UN ; ) )

CkG
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
History is being rewritten on the fly.

No, I don't belive History is being "rewritten" but yes History is being written.

We stopped short of an "invasion" in 91 because Saddam agreed in NO uncertain terms to disarm. He didn't comply and now reaps the consequences of his actions. That my freinds is all the moral(and legal) justification needed. He said he would disarm and we said we would let him stay, Saddam broke his end of the deal so we removed him from power. End of story.

I'll ask this:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT punish those that directly violate cease-fire terms?

CkG

By "punish" lets say "kill" and by "those" lets say "the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country (however unintentional)".

Now it reads (more explicitly) as:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT kill the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country that directly violate cease-fire terms?

Well, I would have to say that (and the only way I can best keep objective is to consider a court case type scenario) deadly force should only be used in self-defence. This then poses the question would the actions be in self-defence? You could argue that WMD make this action justified as Iraq is a big threat. That's fine. You could also argue that the WMD must not just be alleged, but the evidence must be submitted in open court - so not until admissable evidence (and this is debatable also) of WMD is displayed does lethal force become a "moral" punishment for the crime of breaking a cease-fire agreement. Some lesser punishment should then be sought. Not particualrly palletable - but if someone commits a burglary everytime they are released from prison for the previous offense - sooner or later they'll go away for a long time/for good. This doesn't mean they should be shot for being a serial offender. Again it depends on the crime.

The arguement could go on and I'm sure good cases could be made for both sides. Therefore, this one issue alone IMHO shows the kind of doubts of over the "moral status" of starting a war. As I said above, the arguements are not black and white.

Cheers,

Andy

No - your rewriting isn't even close. We sanctioned him - he didn't comply, we put inspectors on the grounds to verify compliance - he didn't comply. We gave him plenty of time to consider full compliance with the agreement and he consistantly defied us (and the UN ;) )
What kind of "moral" options did we have left?
More sanctions? Nope - it's been shown that Saddam and regime( as well as a few European countried;) ) ignored sanctions.
More Inspectors? Nope - They weren't given FULL access!

If we aren't going to back up our words with action then our words are meaningless (much like the UN ; ) )

CkG

In what way was my interpretation not accurate?

Cheers,

Andy
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
History is being rewritten on the fly.

No, I don't belive History is being "rewritten" but yes History is being written.

We stopped short of an "invasion" in 91 because Saddam agreed in NO uncertain terms to disarm. He didn't comply and now reaps the consequences of his actions. That my freinds is all the moral(and legal) justification needed. He said he would disarm and we said we would let him stay, Saddam broke his end of the deal so we removed him from power. End of story.

I'll ask this:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT punish those that directly violate cease-fire terms?

CkG

By "punish" lets say "kill" and by "those" lets say "the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country (however unintentional)".

Now it reads (more explicitly) as:

How "moral" is it for us and the world to NOT kill the government, armed forces and a proportion of the civilian population of a country that directly violate cease-fire terms?

Well, I would have to say that (and the only way I can best keep objective is to consider a court case type scenario) deadly force should only be used in self-defence. This then poses the question would the actions be in self-defence? You could argue that WMD make this action justified as Iraq is a big threat. That's fine. You could also argue that the WMD must not just be alleged, but the evidence must be submitted in open court - so not until admissable evidence (and this is debatable also) of WMD is displayed does lethal force become a "moral" punishment for the crime of breaking a cease-fire agreement. Some lesser punishment should then be sought. Not particualrly palletable - but if someone commits a burglary everytime they are released from prison for the previous offense - sooner or later they'll go away for a long time/for good. This doesn't mean they should be shot for being a serial offender. Again it depends on the crime.

The arguement could go on and I'm sure good cases could be made for both sides. Therefore, this one issue alone IMHO shows the kind of doubts of over the "moral status" of starting a war. As I said above, the arguements are not black and white.

Cheers,

Andy

No - your rewriting isn't even close. We sanctioned him - he didn't comply, we put inspectors on the grounds to verify compliance - he didn't comply. We gave him plenty of time to consider full compliance with the agreement and he consistantly defied us (and the UN ;) )
What kind of "moral" options did we have left?
More sanctions? Nope - it's been shown that Saddam and regime( as well as a few European countried;) ) ignored sanctions.
More Inspectors? Nope - They weren't given FULL access!

If we aren't going to back up our words with action then our words are meaningless (much like the UN ; ) )

CkG

In what way was my interpretation not accurate?

Cheers,

Andy

It is inaccurate because it over simplifies the situation. We "punished" Saddam through sanctions and restricted his access to airspace. That "punishment" didn't work, so the only option left was to remove him from power. We didn't "kill" him because of it - infact I do believe we even gave him(and his regime) an option to leave Iraq (alive ;) ) right before we went in. It was his choice to be "killed" instead of leaving the country.

CkG


 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
One thing she didn't address was the role the U.N. plays in considering morality. It would have been interesting to get her take on this: we went to war to enforce a U.N. resolution even though the U.N. didn't authorize
the attack. I obviously have an opinion, but I would have loved to see her analysis.

exactly. saddam was not in violation of any american or british ultimatum but numerous u.n. resolutions,
including resolution 1441 that received vast international support.

if the u.n. had the means to respond with force - and not necessarily military force - then the u.s. would
not have resorted to unilateral action. the policy of containment had become an expensive failure, much
like the u.n. itself.

beginning in 1995 or 1996, u.n. resolutions were being steadily watered down because certain member
states no longer felt saddam posed the same threat, imminent or long-term. that's insane.

france, germany, and china, among others, all voiced there support for a reduction in the severity of the
restrictions despite saddam's consistent failure to fully comply with any of the resolutions, resolutions
which these same countries helpd draft. the u.n. had been degraded into a theatre of the absurd.



 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
It is inaccurate because it over simplifies the situation. We "punished" Saddam through sanctions and restricted his access to airspace. That "punishment" didn't work, so the only option left was to remove him from power. We didn't "kill" him because of it - infact I do believe we even gave him(and his regime) an option to leave Iraq (alive ;) ) right before we went in. It was his choice to be "killed" instead of leaving the country.

CkG

I thought oversimplification of pro/anti arguements was the case I was argueing! :) I was trying to show that there is not the black and white morality here that many would believe.

"the only option left was to remove him from power"

option left in order to do what - in order to eliminate him as a threat I presume? This comes back to the "is he a big threat" arguement and so "does the end justify the means".

"We didn't "kill" him because of it - infact I do believe we even gave him(and his regime) an option to leave Iraq (alive ;) ) right before we went in. It was his choice to be "killed" instead of leaving the country".

But the ultimate sanction was still war/death. Was the situation was determined to be so grave that death had to be the last resort? This is a point of moral dilemma. Not only that but his one and own decision affected the life and deaths of probably 100,000's through the fact that war and death were the ultimate sanction - was his threat so grave that this is acceptable? It may be distasteful to think that one would have to wait rather than act if he posed no big threat to the world, but I see no other moral implication stemming from that outcome. And this is merely one particular moral point concerning this war!

I do not pretend that these issues are obvious - in fact my whole point so far in this thread is to show you that there are legitimate moral concerns arising from both sides and it would be (IMHO) impossible for either to claim the moral highground on this one - probably regardless of the outcome of any post-war evidence.

I believe it is simply untrue that from a moral standpoint this war was completely justitfied/unjustified and it would be dangerous for future politics to presume so.

Cheers,

Andy

EDIT: Off to bed zzzzzz Will catch up with this tommorrow as its easily the most interesting thread I've seen around here in a while. Cheers.
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
3,038
0
76
I do not pretend that these issues are obvious - in fact my whole point so far in this thread is to show you that there are legitimate moral concerns arising from both sides and it would be (IMHO) impossible for either to claim the moral highground on this one - probably regardless of the outcome of any post-war evidence.

the anti-war side had the dead horse option of continuing the sanction and inspection regimes. the only reason
they showed renewed interest in beefing up both of these was due to american efforts to push the war envelope.
if left to their own natural tendecies, they would've diluted the sanctions to near nothing and allowed saddam to
rearm. russia, france, germany, jordan, turkey, china, and syria were all contributing to the circumvention of the
sanctions. under these conditions, the 'only moral concern' would be the hypocrisy of the member states.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
The moral of the war is, don't support terrorism and produce weapons of mass destruction and use them, or you will get spanked.

Oh I think we were talking about the other definition of moral...
rolleye.gif
 

prometheusxls

Senior member
Apr 27, 2003
830
0
0
First if all I would like to say that WMD are ubiquitous in the world to day and if we wish to eliminate them we will have to put sanctions / war with every country. Additionally, given the prevelance of these weapons in the region, I don't beleive that any iraqi leader could provide for his countries security with out them. In a way Sadam had a moral imperative to aquire WMD to protect his country. Twisted aint it? This leads me to believe that WMD themselves are not the issue but rather was sadam going to use WMD against us or not? That is, the question is not means, but motive. Honestly my question is who gives a f$%* about WMD? We have them they have them everybody has them. And nobody uses them. Well Sadam did use them against IRAN at our request and agianst his own people at times.

Now, It appears that the assumption of some people is that Sadam was a credible threat to the United States and that if he had WMD he would certianly use them agianst us. However, if you get past the red herring of WMD: does he have them or not? And look at the quesiotn of motivation... Then you will see that we are actually assuming the conclusion. And I havent seen anyone address why we are so certian that sadam would have used WMD against us.

And I know there is a big difference between being justified, and being moral. And there is a big difference between being justified and being wise. Some one wrote in here well its as simple as the UN said do this and then he did that,now we do this. Thats the dumbest thing I ever heard. We have options old man. I think the bigger quesiton is one of timing. Even if we were, justified, why did we act now? Why now? What was wrong with waiting? Wasn't waiting actually the best option. I mean its the UN's rules after all and they wanted to wait. Wasn't there wisdom in waiting? We killed 100,000 Iraquis at least thats blood on our hands. Why were we in such a hurry to go in there? Why didnt we go in there 5 years ago if he was sucha threat? Why not as soon as bush was elected? I think it owuld have been wiser to wait. We waited 12 years, whats a few more? I mean why kill the innocents today when you can put the war off till tomorrow? Don't we owe humanity that?

Also I am very worried baout getting involved in Iraq, not the war, which was relitively painless, from our perspective, at least, but the occupation and rebuilding. This is exactly the kind of thing that never works. I am sure the Iraquis are glad we didnt kill any more than we had to in liberating them. Its ok, the thouusands of innocents we killed in the war, they died for Iraqui freedom. But its a differnet situation now, ok Sadam is gone, the threat is over, we are done. Mission accomplished. Lets hand the rebuilding over to the UN. Its theri job, They asked for and I mean we have usurped their authority enough for one day don't you think? But what do we do? No we are so staying. And why? You guessed it, for the money. We take the sucker role. And make no misttakes the people who stay for the money are suckers. And you know why we are suckers? Because every Iraqi we kill form now on he didn't die for freedom, and he didnt die for breakign the peace or for being a violent protester, or whatever, because we arent peace keepers anymore, we are there to broker an oil deal. The ones we kill now died becasue we are there, and we are there because we want the oil. Its pure greed. I think we are setting ourselves up for a moajor internaitonal incident, worse than the shah of Iran. I don't think this gov't, nor the american people (with our expectations), nor the Iraqis can come to some kind of solution that will satisfy everyone. I don't think sadam was a real threat, I don't thnk he would have used WMD agianst the US if he had them, why would he? If anythign he would go after kuwait agian, or Israel or something. Ok for get about justification, we have the opportunity to get out of iraq now. Honestly I hope we go after Syria, anythign to get out of Iraq.

War is the failure of civilization to win out over the animial side in man. It is the failure or communication and diplomacy to reach a mututally agreeable solution. At best war is a necessary evil. I really don't think this war was necessary, so its just evil.

In the end I think it all comes down to how a person views the world, whether they think we were justified or not, wether the war was necessary or not. Some people may think the workd is a vicous place filled with wertched and thick headed people and that if we dont actively hold them in place then they will certainly causeus trouble. Sadam, UBL, etc... I belive differently. I like to think that we don't have enemies in the world only adversaries. I think that most arguemetns result from misunderstandings. I grew up listenign to ronald regan talk about leading the free world to... feedom and posrosperity or some thing like that. Progress is the word I am looking for. I think that our role as a leading country should be leading the world toward progress, something good for everyone. I mean GW basicly said that its Good vs. Evil = Us vs. Them = America vs. ??The World??. How exactly are we leading the world with rhetoric like that? I think from the way this war on terror is playing out that we have strayed from that path to greatness and wantered on to the path to empire. /me Shudders