Was the Iraq War about oil?

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Nope but I'm sure it would make you feel better if it was some kind of Obama propaganda.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/ma...ny-gop-voters-in-alabama-mississippi-20120312


See, that was an example of you having an opinion, I respect your right to think however you want but I don't have to respect your opinion because it's not based on facts (which I kindly linked to for you).

It does not make me feel better, I know that there are idiots on both sides.

How many Dems were screaming about going into Iraq for the oil companies?

Idiots there also.

The issue with opinion based on facts, is that an opponent may reject the facts because they counter act his opinion or facts.

As long as fact can be plural, there is a chance for on to be found that Is not liked.


Note that my initial comment regarding Obama being as Muslim was started with a question phrase, not a declaration phrase.

Many overlook wording and word play to go off on a tangent and/or make a fool of themselves.

Clinton knew how to play the words to create doubt..
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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It does not make me feel better, I know that there are idiots on both sides.

How many Dems were screaming about going into Iraq for the oil companies?

Idiots there also.

No, they're not "idiots", name calling that doesn't really help the discussion.

It wasn't the only reason; it was a large factor IMO.

We didn't make the same effort for an African country going through genocide, now did we? There's a reason we've cared so much about the Middle East oil countries.

Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) probably wasn't a coincidental name, just too 'cute'.

There's a reason why, when a lawsuit managed to get ahold of some sample notes from Cheney's secretive energy planning meetings, they were maps of Iraq oil fields.

Just because it wasn't to simply 'go take their oil', doesn't mean it wasn't largely about keeping friendly control over the oil.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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No, they're not "idiots", name calling that doesn't really help the discussion.

It wasn't the only reason; it was a large factor IMO.

We didn't make the same effort for an African country going through genocide, now did we? There's a reason we've cared so much about the Middle East oil countries.

Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) probably wasn't a coincidental name, just too 'cute'.

There's a reason why, when a lawsuit managed to get ahold of some sample notes from Cheney's secretive energy planning meetings, they were maps of Iraq oil fields.

Just because it wasn't to simply 'go take their oil', doesn't mean it wasn't largely about keeping friendly control over the oil.

Many plans - apparently the war for oil never panned out.
Allowing Iraq to pump their oil to cover costs did not work out either - little oil was actually pumped compared to before the war
Giving Iraq control over their destiny allowed the American oil companies to be shutout.
So, based on the results, those that claimed Iraq was a war for oil is completely flawed by the middle/end game.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Many plans - apparently the war for oil never panned out.
Allowing Iraq to pump their oil to cover costs did not work out either - little oil was actually pumped compared to before the war
Giving Iraq control over their destiny allowed the American oil companies to be shutout.
So, based on the results, those that claimed Iraq was a war for oil is completely flawed by the middle/end game.

You're confusing what was planned with what happened that wasn't planned.

I guess Hitler never planned to conquer England, since he didn't.
 

Charles Kozierok

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May 14, 2012
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I split these posts off of the "respecting opinions" thread because IMO it was going too far afield onto a specific topic.

No, they're not "idiots", name calling that doesn't really help the discussion.

It wasn't the only reason; it was a large factor IMO.

They may not be "idiots", but I haven't seen any credible evidence or arguments to support the claim that getting oil was a "large factor" in the Iraq War. Feel free to set me straight on that, but I doubt you're going to find much other than speculation and innuendo.

We didn't make the same effort for an African country going through genocide, now did we?

This doesn't mean that we invaded Iraq over oil.

There actually are quite a bit of valuable natural resources in Africa.

Also, we persistently support the only non-Muslim country in the region, which also happens to be one of the few with no oil.

Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) probably wasn't a coincidental name, just too 'cute'.

You're kidding, right? That's not what the operation was called.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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If not for the oil WTF did we go for?

IMO some weird combination of:
1) Flex muscles against someone who handn't recovered from the last beat down
2) Build legacy
3) Gain additional ally in the region
4) Remove brutal dictator
5) Excuse to build and play with shiny new toys
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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We went in (IMHO) because Bush wanted to be a liberator and create a new democracy in the Mideast. Oil figured into that dream as a way for the country to pay for [ its own ] transformation without needing money from the US.

The second biggest blunder with the war, aside from not needing to go there at all, was not properly planning for the peace after the end of major combat operations. The white house had a fantasy of being welcomed as liberators with parades and flowers and having the country almost instantly become peaceful and self-supporting.
 
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randomrogue

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Jan 15, 2011
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It's weird how the Iraqi war is almost old enough to be in history books. If you're 18 years old today you were just a little kid at the start of the war and probably don't even remember 911.

That war was waged for a number of reasons. If I had to sum it up into something really simple though it wouldn't be oil it would be because of a bluff. Saddam tried to bluff us and we called him on it. Unfortunately.

We had been fighting with Iraq and the no fly zones for a dozen years or so. We would occasionally bomb Iraq here and there. Iraq was always in the news. The UN and weapons inspectors were in there trying to document things for years. It was always a game of deception, cat and mouse, and bravado with Iraq though. There was a great Frontline Episode between the two wars where they showed how the UN was trying to monitor Iraq. The one scene in particular that struck me was when they showed an aerial view of a convoy of UN vehicles approaching a compound from the front while a convoy of Iraqi vehicles left the back. They then refused to let the UN in for days until they had shredded everything that remained.

The problem really was that we knew he had weapons since we sold them to him but we didn't know if he'd sold them or destroyed them. He refused to cooperated. All he really had to do was say, "Hey they're gone, destroyed, expired and here is how it was done". He didn't do it though. He thought he could be the big man on the block but he didn't plan on 911 or Cowboy Bush going all gung ho on him.

Now with all that said there was a huge propaganda machine put in place to convince the American people that the war was worth it. That's where we failed miserably. The Colin Powell presentation to the UN was a clinching move and based on a bunch of lies. The curveball fiasco was a terrible source of intelligence that we used to wage war. We were also told that the war wouldn't cost us anything since Iraqi oil would pay for it. Worse was that our leaders didn't lead shit. They went in there, blew up a bunch of stuff, and then had no post war plan at all. There was another amazing show (can't remember which one) that showed who ran Iraq after the war. They disbanded the military and fired all the departments putting in place high donors and their children in positions of power. They had 20 year olds running certain departments in Iraq after the war. It was the worst type of cronyism. So although the war wasn't exclusively about oil or the military industrial complex I do believe that it played some part based on how terrible the post war Iraq was run. So much money went missing and so much money was spent. On nothing.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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We went in (IMHO) because Bush wanted to be a liberator and create a new democracy in the Mideast. Oil figured into that dream as a way for the country to pay for [ its own ] transformation without needing money from the US.

The second biggest blunder with the war, aside from not needing to go there at all, was not properly planning for the peace after the end of major combat operations. The white house had a fantasy of being welcomed as liberators with parades and flowers and having the country almost instantly become peaceful and self-supporting.

IIRC we were generally welcomed but then we did things like keep the power off for excessively long times and made access to clean water difficult. The army did its job of fighting very well but we did a really shitty job of rebuilding
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
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In my opinion, Iraq was very much about oil in the meta sense, though not necessarily specifically targeted at Iraq's oil. That is primarily why we care about the Mideast at all, to secure our oil supply and the interests of the American companies who profit from it. Also, as has been already mentioned, Iraq was a perfect opportunity to enrich the military-industrial complex (including Halliburton), and to create a legacy for GWB (who was previously on course for a quite mediocre and unremarkable presidency).

IMO, of course.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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If not for the oil WTF did we go for?

For me to say 'here is the answer', it would imply I have some 'evidence' like aq document from the people who decided confessing their reasons.

Without that, it can only be informed speculation, but clearly there were reasons for us to speculate about.

Here's my basic opinion, saying up front I only have partical info so it's incomplete.

1. Our Republican presidents have had 'interests' or 'forces' behind them that they enable for some time now. National security related interests.

We could go back as far as Eisenhower - this cropped up post-WWII - but it wasn't the same then. The CIA was in its baby stages, but was already picking and choosing governments and assassinations around the world. It was already undermining the incoming President-elect Kennedy by ordering the assassination of the leader Kennedy was planning to work with in Africa for policies the CIA did not care for, and in his first few months trying to mislead the President into an invasion he didn't want of Cuba (for which he fired the #1 and #2 men at the CIA, beginning a period of very strained relations between him and some of these interests).

But you can see it more with Nixon/Ford - funny enough, powerful forces there included the Cheney Rumsfeld team, who rose in power to where they were Ford's Chief of Staff and Secretary of Defense. Nixon had begun a process of detente, saying it would end the cold war - Cheney and Rumsfeld were not for that. They began creating stories of secret new Soviet weapons to terrify the country - with no evidence for them proving the secret weapons existed. The CIA strongly disagree with them - no matter. They talked ford into creating a commission, called "Team B", which included... wait for it... Paul Wolfowitz, which concluded that my gosh yes, the Soviets had terrifying new weapons. They created the "Committee on the Present Dange" - yes, that was the actual name - which had the purpose of spreading the message to the country to fear the Soviet Union and these new weapons, and advocate large increases to the military budget. It worked - the nation became more scared and supported the military spending (and they made a lot of money on it as well). Of course later events and documents came to prove them wrong on their assertions.

'Neo-conservatism' began with these people under Nixon, challenging Kissinger and more conventional foreign policy.

That 'Team B' was a bureacratic device created with the purpose of countering the CIA's estimates of lower risk from the Soviet Union, to protect and increase military budgets. It was 'outside experts' - approved by the new CIA Director, wait for it, George H. W. Bush. Bush wasn't just a CIA director - he had been appointed at a time of the greatest crisis in the agency's history, just after Congressional hearings, with some cooperation from the CIA Director who was telling some truths, exposed all kinds of out of control operations.

Bush had proven his total political loyalty already - at a time no Republican wanted to be the Chair of the Republican Party during Watergate where they'd be forced to defend the administration, Bush had accepted the assignment - and when they needed someone who would keep the secrets and be totally politically loyal against efforts to reign in the CIA, they appointed Bush again.

Of course, when Reagan was elected, they were back in power - now with Bush as VP - and it was a very ugly period in our history, as Iran was mysteriously friendly with the Reagan administration (where it was found we were illegally selling them weapons), where we were sponsoring and training death squads in Central America who were killing thousands of people like labor leaders to support right-wing dictatorships (these are the 'raped and killed the nuns and killed the Arch-Bishop) people, where Congress had outlawed any money for Contras in Nicaragua but these interests were using money from everywhere from those Iranian Arms deals to apparently skimming from cocaine smugglers to illegally fund the Contras, a group of former secret police and criminals who Reagan called "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers"), when partially exposed leaving Reagan to tell the nation that 'his heart said his administration had not traded arms for hostages, but his head said the evidence showed they had'. Dark days of hidden, and often evil, security state activities.

These are the same interests who helped push America into the first war with Iraq - including with the misleading of the American people and Congress, a moving factor being the testimony of a woman who spoke of Saddam's troops in Kuwait who were taking babies out of hospital incubators... except the woman was lying, and the daughter of the ambassadors from Kuwait which was not known at the time, her remarks part of a PR campaign designed by a major US PR company, with the office who did it headed by Bush's former Chief of Staff... but the same motives for oil and power in the region and positioning the US for any future military activities existed then as well...

(Funny enough, it was the same people involved in tensions then, as Colin Powell backed off simply executing masses of Iraqi troops as they fled back to Iraq).

Under Clinton, these same people wrote a letter to Clinton pressuring him to renew the war in Iraq, under their new organization, 'the Project for a New American Century'...

The arguments they made for war - whatever bits of truth are in them, what parts are propaganda, they shed a bit of light on the best case they could come up with, they're historical documents now from that PNAC organization - funny enough, George W. Bush was advised to let Cheney pick his VP, and Cheney did a search and selected himself, and Bush's foreign policy and military appointments were right from the PNAC membership.

So there's a lot of history of these interests that had wanted that war for their own combination of reasons, and were in a position to push them under Bush as figurehead.

Their influence is shown by how, within hours of 9/11 Bush was telling the shocked people who weren't part of the neocons, to find a connection to Saddam that didn't exist.

That even was hijacked by these people to justify the war - nothing more to it.

To summarize my point here - there are existing 'security interest' officials, the neocon establishment largely, who had this agenda for war as one major factor.

2. I don't think Bush was 'owned' by these people - but he was their willing enabler generally. There were moments he did not support them - notably after the 2006 elections Democrats won where he replaced Rumsfeld (days after promising Rumsfeld had his full support). Bush had other reasons in addition to the neocon agenda listed above.

One large reason was, as Bush had confided earlier, that he understood that 'a war president is a lot more powerful'.

Not only did he want that power - he had come into power viewed as a weak candidate, the spoiled son of a previous president who was a sort of party boy with little to qualify him and he'd lost the popular vote and the election had, as many Americans knew, been stolen - he wanted to strengthen his position. He wanted to be a war president.

And he was right about the politics - these war incidents, on 9/11 and when he invaded Iraq - provided massive increases in his public support and ended talk of the stolen election.

A media constortium had done a recount of Florida votes showing Gore had won, but the results came in soon after 9/11 and the media mostly hid them.

This simple desire to be a 'war president' for more power - with Iraq the best choice of where to do it (early in his administration there seemed to have been some misguided efforts to stir up 'war with China' sentiments that were abandoned after 9/11) - appears to have aligned him well with wanting war with Iraq.

3. Some have speculated about some motive to 'beat his father', by getting Saddam where his father had backed off of that.

I have no information to support that - it seems very speculative to me. It may have provided him some satisfaction and further interest - I don't know how much.

But I don't place much weight on it.

4. Little known history about the Iraq war is that the US had massivve plans for rebuilding Iraq for a right-wing agenda.

An entire set of economic policies that were a right-wing economist's fantasy playground - starting with a flat tax but incuding much more - were laid out secretly. We already had our new leader of Iraq in the wings ready to fly in and put in his puppet position - Chalabi. It was a plan for country by people who knew nothing about how to build a country but had plenty of right-wing policies waiting to be pushed. Of course the plans fell apart when the expected short war went badly with years of strong resistance.

The State Department - under Colin Powell - had created a detailed plan for occupying Iraq and building it back.

But Cheney and Rumsfeld had persuaded Bush to move control for the occupation from the State Department to Rumsfeld and State's plan was thrown away.

But these right-wing interests who expected to use Iraq as a laboratory and model for their policies was a motive at the time of pushing the war.

5. The thing we know was not really a factor was the reason they actually gave, WMD.

In a shockingly honest confession, Wolfowitz wrote an article and admitted that the process had been that they met to discuss how best to sell the war to Congress and the public, "For bureaucratic reasons we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."

So this goes to show that while they were all aligned for war, this same debate looking for a reason and justification led to finding a hyped up WMD 'threat'.

It wasn't that they didn't TRY to also lie about a link between Saddam and 9/11 - they did - but WMD was more effective.

Another reason to use WMD was the fact that the UN Charter prohibits a member from starting a war - with an exception for 'pre-emptive war' meaning that if another nation has massed forces on your border and is clearly about to attack - the word is 'imminent' - you can attack them first - and the Bush administration claimed there was such an 'imminent threat' of attack by Saddam against the US, to claim it was following the charter.

This is were fantasies of things like crop dusters hired by Saddam to spread anthrax came from.

6. Oil. Now, I am not well enough informed to say a lot about just how the oil agenda works. It's not as simple as 'they have oil and we're going to take it'. That has been the case at times; the CIA's first covert operation was about Iranian oil, when there was a deal to buy their oil cheap under pressure, and the new government wanted a better deal for their country, England asked the US to help them and we did by overthrowing democracy and putting the Shah in power with a brutal secret police force we supplied to keep him in power. What could go wrong? But by the time of Iraq, the situation was a lot more complicated with oil.

One tidbit we do have, as I mentioned, is that Cheney's primary priority early in the Bush administration was chairing a secretive energy policy review - and a lawsuit managed to get a few documents from it released, and those documents were maps of Iraq's oil fields, that's how they spent their time on US energy policy. One issue is simply 'friendly control' of oil that is a strategic resources for our competitors such as China, who Saddam would be happy to sell to.

It's also a fact that in the chaotic post-war period, as ever government agency was looted and destroyed (not to mention the museums), one building was protected by US forces under Rumsfeld's policy - the oil ministry. And oh by the way, when Chalabi was derailed as the leader of Iraq - he was put in charge of the oil ministry.

Was it a coincidence that the initial name the government selected for the Iraq war effort was Operation Iraq Liberation - OIL - before the media caught on and they changed it?

7. There's the whole 'the defense industry profits hugely from war' issue. Hard to say just how much that played a role, but seems very likely it was one supporting factor.

Nevermind the direct relationships between people such as Cheney with Halliburton who stood to profit enormously, it's a large interest of the Republican party.

8. Strategic positioning for further control in the Middle East, i.e., war with Iran.

Look at a map, and Iran is surrounded by US allies now. Iraq has a lot of value as a base for US miliary forces for use in the region - including a base for war with Iran.

This partly falls under the PNAC agenda, which well understood that value.

Returning to PNAC for a moment, one of the factors they mentioned was that US power was well servied by periodically attacking and showing military dominance - doesn't matter the enemy, just attack somoene from time to time to make a point. That's the sort of morality - and agenda they admitted - they have.

I'm sure I've missed some things, and there's no way to say how much weight each had - the bottom line was Bush needing to say he's in favor of war, and all these helped.

Edit: one I forgot:

9. A replacement for our bases in Saudi Arabia

In 1990 after Saddam invaded Kuwait, we put US bases in Saudi Arabia. This had the backing of the Saudi government, but outraged many Muslims because Saudi Arabia is the home of their religion, where Mecca is located. It would be a bit like China putting military bases in Vatican City for Catholics. As USA Today reported in 2003:

During his interview with Vanity Fair in early May, Wolfowitz cited several payoffs from the war, including removing the need for American forces in Saudi Arabia.

Those troops were sent to protect the desert kingdom against Saddam, whose forces invaded Kuwait in 1990. But their presence in the country that is home to Islam's holiest sites enraged many Muslims, including al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Within two weeks of the fall of Baghdad, the United States announced it was removing most of its 5,000 troops from Saudi Arabia.

"Their presence there over the last 12 years has been a source of enormous difficulty for a friendly government," Wolfowitz said. "It's been a huge recruiting device for al-Qaeda."

Funny thing is, Osama bin Laden 'got what he wanted' with that policy and 9/11.

Now, it's my opinion that bin Laden's agenda was not accurately reflected in the reasons he gave for 9/11; the reasons he gave were propaganda aimed to sell his attack to the Muslim world.

Suddenly, bin Laden was concerned about the Palestinians, for example.

But bin Laden's religious outrage over the bases in Saudi Arabia does seem sincere; his turn to radicalism largely came when he asked Saudi Arabi to let him drive our Saddam instead of the US, and they turned him down. It's a bit ironic that - good idea or not - the 9/11 attack did lead us to get rid of those bases.

I have to suspect the Saudi government was pressuring us to get rid of them.

I suspect it's just one more factor that made it seem like a good idea to go to war in Iraq.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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IIRC we were generally welcomed but then we did things like keep the power off for excessively long times and made access to clean water difficult. The army did its job of fighting very well but we did a really shitty job of rebuilding

I think Iraq could have gone a lot better and been far more defensible.

It was always going to be an illegal war based on lies, but it could have:

Been a war that overthrew a corrupt, brutal, murderous dictator and did 'liberate' the Iraqi people, following the State Department plan, providing aid to the Iraqi people, rebuilding their country, with the US quickly returning authority to an Iraqi governing body and democracy. But that wasn't their plan and wasn't done.

There was always going to be trauma as the country shifted from a minority Sunni domination of the Shiites, to a majority Shiite-controlled country.

But it could have gone without the years of violence increased by our policies.

Banning all the civil servants who had been in the Baath party from keeping the country running, disbanding the army creating the militia resistance... disasters.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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If I had to sum it up into something really simple though it wouldn't be oil it would be because of a bluff. Saddam tried to bluff us and we called him on it. Unfortunately...

We had been fighting with Iraq and the no fly zones for a dozen years or so. We would occasionally bomb Iraq here and there. Iraq was always in the news. The UN and weapons inspectors were in there trying to document things for years. It was always a game of deception, cat and mouse, and bravado with Iraq though. There was a great Frontline Episode between the two wars where they showed how the UN was trying to monitor Iraq. The one scene in particular that struck me was when they showed an aerial view of a convoy of UN vehicles approaching a compound from the front while a convoy of Iraqi vehicles left the back. They then refused to let the UN in for days until they had shredded everything that remained.

The problem really was that we knew he had weapons since we sold them to him but we didn't know if he'd sold them or destroyed them. He refused to cooperated. All he really had to do was say, "Hey they're gone, destroyed, expired and here is how it was done". He didn't do it though. He thought he could be the big man on the block but he didn't plan on 911 or Cowboy Bush going all gung ho on him.

Now with all that said there was a huge propaganda machine put in place to convince the American people that the war was worth it. That's where we failed miserably. The Colin Powell presentation to the UN was a clinching move and based on a bunch of lies. The curveball fiasco was a terrible source of intelligence that we used to wage war. We were also told that the war wouldn't cost us anything since Iraqi oil would pay for it. Worse was that our leaders didn't lead shit. They went in there, blew up a bunch of stuff, and then had no post war plan at all. There was another amazing show (can't remember which one) that showed who ran Iraq after the war. They disbanded the military and fired all the departments putting in place high donors and their children in positions of power. They had 20 year olds running certain departments in Iraq after the war. It was the worst type of cronyism. So although the war wasn't exclusively about oil or the military industrial complex I do believe that it played some part based on how terrible the post war Iraq was run. So much money went missing and so much money was spent. On nothing.

One correction.

By the late period just before the war, it did not involve a bluff. That was not Saddam lying, it was the US government determined to sell a false message.

Saddam was saying for some time - correctly - that his WMD had been destroyed.

Further, the weapons inspectors - after earlier periods of non-cooperation under Clinton - had been allowed back in.

The inspectors were actively completing their insepctions, and had updated that they were receiving adequate cooperation and would finish the inspections within a couple months.

That caused panic in the Bush adminstration because they did not want the truth, they did not want the justification for war taken away when no WMD were found.

They launched a PR campaign to attack the head of the inspectors - Hans Blix - and they moved up the schedule for war so the inspections could not finish.

There was no 'innocent mistake' about that, it was an effort specifically designed to PREVENT any truth about a lack of WMD from coming out.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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I recall that. I also seem to remember Hans Blix complaining that Saddam was NOT cooperating. The mood of the nation after 911 was not in favor of additional patience with respect to Iraq. It's unfortunate but you have to remember that Iraq didn't start cooperating until a few months before the war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/feb/14/iraq.unitednations1

Also, Gore lost the election unless you counted non-punched ballots. Get over it already. About 70,000 people were too stupid to figure out how the Butterfly Ballot worked and that cost Gore the election.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I recall that. I also seem to remember Hans Blix complaining that Saddam was NOT cooperating. The mood of the nation after 911 was not in favor of additional patience with respect to Iraq. It's unfortunate but you have to remember that Iraq didn't start cooperating until a few months before the war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/feb/14/iraq.unitednations1

Also, Gore lost the election unless you counted non-punched ballots. Get over it already. About 70,000 people were too stupid to figure out how the Butterfly Ballot worked and that cost Gore the election.

I've reviewed the history with Hans Blix. He was required to make status reported to the UN. My recollection is that he had some complaints about the cooperation in specific cases, but he was very clear in saying that despite those compaints the cooperation was adequate for the successful completion of the inspections and that he strongly recommended allowing them to complete and that the use of force was not justified.

While Iraq only started cooperating more later, the thing is, it was in plenty of time for the inspections to complete and find there was no WMD threat, and the inspection efforts were intentionally sabotaged by the US because the US, lying when saying they did not want war, were determined to go to war.

On the 2000 election, I won't make the long post needed to summarize the many issues, but suffice it to say that, no offense, you are clearly uninformed about it. There were many problems in the election - some inadverant such as the butterfly ballot mistake, but others you do not cite with clear intent to prevent legitimate voters for Gore. You misrepresent an issue you do mention, the recount. It's not the topic of this thread, but if you want start a thread and I'll supply you with a lot you're missing on the issue.

Of you can just search the forum and read earlier posts with the info. Gore won the election, period. 'Get over the election being stolen' is wrong.

If you value democracy, you would not say that, if you had any understanding of the facts, but you are rushing to conclusions lacking them and saying that.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount#Results
The media reported the results of the study during the week after November 12, 2001. The results of the study showed that had the limited county by county recounts requested by the Gore team been completed, Bush would still have been the winner of the election.

The media recount study found that under the system of limited recounts in selected counties as was requested by the Gore campaign, the only way that Gore would have won was by using counting methods that were never requested by any party, including "overvotes" &#8212; ballots containing more than one vote for an office.

Seriously. Get over it.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I repeat, this is not the thread for an in depth review of the issue, but you keep trying to make claims about it.

The Florida constitution required that the voted be counted where 'the intent of the voter was clear'.

It's irrelevant what was sued for, for example that Gore cherry picked four counties - the court ordered a statewide recount.

The media misrepresented the results of their own recount, at the height of the post-9/11 national reaction not wanting to hear the election was wrongly decided. The truth was generally there deep in the reporting, but they created irrelevant and artifical alternative vote-counting methods under which Bush still barely won.

The recount - while a statewide recount of votes where intent was clear - did show Gore clearly won by a very small margin, that's only one tiny issue.

There are all kinds of others - such as the different standards of processing ballots with errors where Bush districts returned them to voters to correct and counted nearly 100% of the votes as a rsesult, while Gore districts did not return the ballots and many times as many ballots were not counted.

Issues such as the corrupt 'felon purge list' where nearly 100,000 valid voters were kicked off the roles, half of them blacks, by intentionally using very loose rules to match the names of voters with felon lists. That cost Gore tens of thousands of valid votes. Or the illegal removal of thousands of voters who had moved to Florida and had felony convictions in OTHER states but had the legal right to vote in Florida - even after the cout ordered the Jeb Bush adminitration to stop the practice.

The list goes on of all kinds of things, the bottom line being that the clear and indisputable choice of the American people was Gore, and election corruption stole the election.

You can get over your objections to the truth when you can be bothered to learn it.

It's better to get informed than to just get more strident in insisting on falsehoods.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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On the specific issue of the recount:

http://www.infoplease.com/cig/supreme-court/election-machinery-that-works.html

The vote study done after the election by a consortium of newspapers showed he would have been better off asking for a statewide recount. The study determined that, based on the prevailing statewide standard, Gore would have won the state.

From Vanity Fair:

http://archive.truthout.org/article/vanity-fair-the-path-florida

According to Jeffrey Toobin in his 2001 book, Too Close to Call, Harris, having gone to sleep thinking her candidate had won, was awakened at 3:30 A.M. the morning after Election Day by a phone call from George W.'s campaign chairman, Don Evans, who put Jeb on the line. "Who is Ed Kast," the governor asked icily, "and why is he giving an interview on national television?"

In her sleep-befuddled state, Harris had to ponder that a moment. Who was Ed Kast? Chances were she'd barely met the assistant director of elections, whose division reported to her. Kast at that moment was nattering on about the fine points of Florida election law. Under that law, manual recounts were called for in very close races, and voter intent was the litmus test for whether disputed votes counted or not. Recounts and voter intent were almost certainly not subjects the governor wanted aired - already, his general counsel had made a call to get Kast yanked off the air, as brusquely as if with a cane...

At issue were "undervotes," meaning blank or incompletely filled-out ballots. While totally blank ballots could hardly be counted, what about, in the case of the punch-card machines, ballots where the puncher, or stylus, hadn't quite gone through?

In those counties using optiscan machines, manual recounts also had to consider "overvotes," where voters appeared to have cast more than one vote in a contest. (In 2000, a majority of Florida's counties - 41 of 67 - had optiscans. A voter filled in ovals next to his candidates of choice on a paper ballot and then fed it into the optiscan, which looked rather like a street-corner mailbox. The ballot was then recorded electronically.) No one would dispute that some overvotes had to be put aside - when, for example, a voter had filled in the ovals next to Bush's name as well as Gore's. But some voters had filled in the Gore oval and then written "Al Gore" next to it. Should those ballots be nixed? For that matter, a stray pencil mark on an otherwise properly filled-in ballot would cause the ballot to be rejected as an overvote by an optiscan voting machine. Shouldn't these all be examined, since the gold standard of Florida election law was voter intent? There were, in all, 175,000 overvotes and undervotes.

Harris and Stipanovich couldn't tell the four target counties how to do their l percent recounts - at least, not directly. But they could, and did, send a young, strawberry-blonde lawyer named Kerey Carpenter to offer help to Palm Beach County's three-person canvassing board. According to the board's chairman, Judge Charles Burton, Carpenter mentioned she was a lawyer, but not that she was working for Katherine Harris.

At one point, when the recount had produced 50 new Gore votes, Burton, after talking to Carpenter, declared the counting would have to start again with a more stringent standard - the punched-out paper chad had to be hanging by one or two of its four corners. By this stricter standard, Gore's vote gain dropped to half a dozen. Carpenter also encouraged Burton to seek a formal opinion from Harris as to what grounds would justify going to a full manual recount. Burton happily complied.

That Monday, November 13, Harris supplied the opinion. No manual recount should take place unless the voting machines in question were broken. Within hours, a judge overruled her, declaring the recounts could proceed as planned. Harris countered by saying she would stop the clock on recounts the next day, November 14, at 5 P.M. - before Palm Beach and Miami-Dade had even decided whether to recount, and before Broward had finished the recount it had embarked upon. (Only Volusia, far smaller than the other three counties, was due to finish its recount by November 14, in time to be counted on Harris's schedule.)

Circuit-court judge Terry Lewis, then 48, a widely respected jurist who in his leisure time played pickup basketball and wrote legal thrillers, rendered a fairly gentle ruling on Harris's decision to certify those results. She could do this, he suggested, but only if she came up with a sensible reason. So Harris asked the remaining three Gore-targeted counties to explain why they wished to continue their recounts. Palm Beach cited the discrepancies between the results of its limited manual recount and its machine recount. Broward told of its large voter turnout and accompanying logistical problems. Miami-Dade argued that the votes it had recounted so far would provide a different total result. As soon as she received the responses, Harris rejected them all. On Friday, November 17, with the last of the absentee ballots ostensibly in, Harris announced that she would certify the election by the next morning. The Florida Supreme Court intervened this time, declaring she could not do that, and deciding, with a weekend to think about it, that the three target counties could take until Sunday, November 26, to finish counting - or, if Harris so deigned, until Monday, November 27.

James Baker, the Bush team's consigliere, issued a public threat after the Florida Supreme Court's maddening decision. If necessary, he implied, Florida's leading Republican legislator, incoming House Speaker Tom Feeney, would take matters into his own hands. What Feeney proposed, on Tuesday, November 21, was to vote in a slate of electors pledged to George W. Bush - no matter what. Since both the state House and Senate were Republican-dominated, he could pass a bill to do that.

In Miami-Dade that week, a manual recount of undervotes began to produce a striking number of new votes for Gore. There, as in Palm Beach and Broward, fractious Democratic and Republican lawyers were challenging every vote the canvassing board decided. In Miami-Dade, Kendall Coffey, tall and gaunt, was the Democrats' eyes and ears. As the Gore votes accumulated, he recalls, "panic buttons were being pushed."

On Wednesday, November 22, the canvassing board made an ill-fated decision to move the counting up from the 18th floor of the Clark Center, where a large number of partisan observers had been able to view it, to the more cloistered 19th floor. Angry shouts rang out, and so began the "Brooks Brothers riot."

Several dozen people, ostensibly local citizens, began banging on the doors and windows of the room where the tallying was taking place, shouting, "Stop the count! Stop the fraud!" They tried to force themselves into the room and accosted the county Democratic Party chairman, accusing him of stealing a ballot. A subsequent report by The Washington Post would note that most of the rioters were Republican operatives, many of them congressional staffers...

On Friday, December 8, however, the Florida Supreme Court confounded everyone by jumping back into the fray. By a vote of four to three, it ordered a statewide recount of all undervotes: the more than 61,000 ballots that the voting machines, for one reason or another, had missed. The court was silent on what standard would be used - hanging vs. pregnant chads - and so each county, by inference, would set its own.

There's a question about the overvotes - the Florida Supreme Court had finally ordered a statewide recount of undervotes, but the constitutional requirement and 'prevailing standard' was to count overvotes as well 'where the intent of the voter was clear'. Many votes had Gore's name checked and his name written in on the line 'write in name' - clearly Gore votes but not counted. In terms of just common sense of who the voters intended to vote for, those were clearly Gore votes.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,514
15,391
136
If not for the oil WTF did we go for?

I admit I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet so I apologize if anything has been repeated.

In my opinion, people claimed Iraq was for oil only because we have no freaken clue when we were there. The administration lied and has continued to maintain the lie (see Cheney) that saying the Iraq war was about oil is the only thing that makes sense.

In time, I would imagine, as more documents are released or leaked we will find out the real motive, until then people will fall back on the oil argument.

Oil could be the reason but with such a horribly managed affair that the benefits never panned out.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
0
There's a question about the overvotes - the Florida Supreme Court had finally ordered a statewide recount of undervotes, but the constitutional requirement and 'prevailing standard' was to count overvotes as well 'where the intent of the voter was clear'. Many votes had Gore's name checked and his name written in on the line 'write in name' - clearly Gore votes but not counted. In terms of just common sense of who the voters intended to vote for, those were clearly Gore votes.

Been reading for a while now. The study on overvotes where it was Bush/Bush and Gore/Gore - did they ever do a count of the whole state?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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Been reading for a while now. The study on overvotes where it was Bush/Bush and Gore/Gore - did they ever do a count of the whole state?

That media consortium is the best statewide recount we have - and it has some useful info if you get a good report of it rather than a 'spin' report that was the norm.

I don't have numbers but my impression is that there were many times more Gore/Gore overvotes than Bush/Bush (actually never heard of one of those but I assume some existed); two factors I speculate for the higher rate, one Gore voters tending to be less educated (cue the peanut gallery) and two the difference in voting machine settings to return invalid ballots.

As I recall in Bush precincts you would typically see 1% to 3% of votes invalidated and in Gore precints the number could be over 10%, since they were returned to voters to correct in Bush precincts and in Gore precints were just accepted. It's hard to tell why that happened, except the data supports that it did, with numbers of rejected votes by precinct.

One possible factor - Bush precincts having more money to buy better machines - but I've seen reports of the same machines having different settings to return the ballot.

It makes little sense because as I understand it the machines were run locally, so Democratic Districts would have Democratic officials running them.

That would imply that the problem was inadvertant, the same way the butterfly ballot fiasco that cost Gore about 8,000 votes was designed by Democrats screwing up, not intent.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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I already split this from a different thread. Anyone can feel free to start a new one to rehash the 2000 election if they wish (though I bet a nickel no new ground will be covered, nor anyone's mind changed on anything related to that fiasco.)