was the EU doomed from the start?

[CanOWorms]

EU is going nowhere.

Is this really a negative though? I think that a neutered Europe is good for world safety.

 

[bpatters69]

Because they figured that they've had too many wars already, and it's time to figure out how to avoid them?

Seriously... leaving intercontinental divide, ignorance and cultural relativism aside, it's frightening to see how few people bother to read and understand history and political science nowadays.

Please enlighten me.

How about the disparate country by country or even regional differences in laws and cultures that exist within each country? I have been to many of the countries in Europe and I have seen the fierce independance that exists within each of the countries. From a practical standpoint, there is not much that unites the European countries other than the fact that they exist on the same continent.

 

[Broheim]

Please enlighten me.

How about the disparate country by country or even regional differences in laws and cultures that exist within each country? I have been to many of the countries in Europe and I have seen the fierce independance that exists within each of the countries. From a practical standpoint, there is not much that unites the European countries other than the fact that they exist on the same continent.

the EU is really no different than the US, you guys have very different cultures and laws depending on which state or even where in a state you are, why are we doomed because of it and you are not?

 

[walkur]

The EU (and the euro) started of OK, the problem is that they(we) started expanding too fast.

We should have stopped expanding and stuck to the size of 1973. At that time the EU consisted of Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Ireland and the UK.

Even if the euro/EU would collapse, there will be countries that will keep their historic economic ties alive and form new ones.

 

[KAZANI]

LOL, as usual most Americans have no clue about the difference between the EU and the EMU. Even without the Euro, the EU will still exist

carry on

That's wishful thinking given the political context in which the eurozone came to be. There's nothing to keep the EU from dissolving after its core has broken up, besides there is no provision in any treaty for an exit out of the euro.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

the EU is really no different than the US, you guys have very different cultures and laws depending on which state or even where in a state you are, why are we doomed because of it and you are not?

you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

the US is in fact VERY united.
i was born in NY state, but my allegiance is to the United States, not New York.
my family has been in the US for 3 generations and we've freely moved between states multiple times. there is no concept of loyalty to a state with us, and with most US citizens I assume.
the country comes first and foremost, then state/local govt.

can you say the same about the EU ? or does your country come first?
from the current events in europe, it seems most people only care about their country and couldn't give a shit about the rest of the EU.

and the cultural differences are because of all the immigration (mostly illegal central/south american) that has happened in the past 2 decades.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

They thought that the desire for Empire would overpower xenophobia. They underestimated.

I don't understand your influx of illegals argument, but Europe has a large influx of refugees (not illegals, but a subclass of legal immigrant).

you don't feel that the influx of illegal mexicans has caused a cultural divide in our nation?

i feel it here way up in the north east. my cousins in arizona tell me it's like mexico over there.
what used to be deli's are now bodegas. every other storefront is hablamos espanol. can't have friendly chats with those in our communities because we have different languages/cultures.

what state do you live in?

 

[peonyu]

you don't feel that the influx of illegal mexicans has caused a cultural divide in our nation?

i feel it here way up in the north east. my cousins in arizona tell me it's like mexico over there.
what used to be deli's are now bodegas. every other storefront is hablamos espanol. can't have friendly chats with those in our communities because we have different languages/cultures.

what state do you live in?

Mexico is our #1 legal immigration source, so even without illegals we would have alot of Mexican-Americans moving here [and yes, that includes your North East]. The rest of Latin America combined is easily #2 and #3 for immigration so thats more legal Hispanics moving here...The country is going to be Hispanicized legally without illegal immigration. Illegals are just speeding the process up by a notch or two.

The way some people talk, it sounds like they [secretly] wish we would go back to the pre-1965 immigration reform laws...Where only White Europeans were allowed to move to the US, and if you were not White you were kicked away.

The 1965 immigration reform opened the doors to the world to move here, any religion and any race.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

Immigration shift

"By changing long-held immigration policies, the act resulted in new immigration from non-European nations which changed the ethnic make-up of the United States.[5] Immigration doubled between 1965 and 1970, and doubled again between 1970 and 1990.[2] The most dramatic effect was to shift immigration from Europe to Asia and Central and South America.
[edit] Long-term results

A Boston Globe article attributed Barack Obama’s win in the 2008 U.S. Presidential election to a marked reduction over the preceding decades in the percentage of whites in the American electorate, attributing this demographic change to the Act.[5] The article quoted Simon Rosenberg, president and founder of the New Democrat Network, as having said that the Act is "the most important piece of legislation that no one’s ever heard of," and that it "set America on a very different demographic course than the previous 300 years,"[5] which is contrary to Ted Kennedy's initial claim during debate of the Act that "the ethnic mix of this country will not be upset."



Personally I think its good we allow anyone to move to the US, since we are all from immigrant backgrounds its how it should be. Europe is what surprises me though, the native people/culture there are white, yet they are allowing themselves to be drowned out by immigrants from a totally different culture who are replacing them at a fast rate. Its Cultural suicide that Europe is doing to itself, and EuRabia is what Europe is going to be at the rate its going in the future.

 

[peonyu]

Is this really a negative though? I think that a neutered Europe is good for world safety.

Even a neutered Europe is still a Juggernaut compared to their neighbors [minus Russia]. Africa is weak, the Middle East is weak, India and Pakistan could be dominated by Europe if the Europeans wanted to. China is a counterweight to that and can hold its own. The world stage is dominated by Europeans and their [European descended] proxy countries around the world...Which is the US, Canada, and Australia. Of course China is probably going to change that in time, they atleast have their shit together, the same cant be said for Africa,the Muslim world, latin America or India..Those regions are all a total mess by most any standard.

 

[Leymenaide]

Why shouldn't they go back to their own countries?

Switzerland didn't join for a reason.

The Swiss are part of the EU in everthing but name. They adopt almost all eu directives.

 

[Leymenaide]

you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

the US is in fact VERY united.
i was born in NY state, but my allegiance is to the United States, not New York.
my family has been in the US for 3 generations and we've freely moved between states multiple times. there is no concept of loyalty to a state with us, and with most US citizens I assume.
the country comes first and foremost, then state/local govt.

can you say the same about the EU ?



Young Europeans see themselves as citizen’s of Europe and their home country. They see no other way. The educated class move about with great freedom and love the freedom.
They do not see the damage it does to family nor are they cynical about this being mostly for the benefit of the RICH.
The EU is first and foremost about the RICH moving their assets. Not normal people moving theirs.
If I like the German version of a MAJOR BRAND dishwasher and want to go to Germany and buy it I can but when I install it in France I have no WARENTY. Cars are different most companies will warranty their cars wherever you register them in Europe. You have the local warranty.

 

[CanOWorms]

you don't feel that the influx of illegal mexicans has caused a cultural divide in our nation?

i feel it here way up in the north east. my cousins in arizona tell me it's like mexico over there.
what used to be deli's are now bodegas. every other storefront is hablamos espanol. can't have friendly chats with those in our communities because we have different languages/cultures.

what state do you live in?

The Southwest has always had a strong Mexican influence. Your cousins in AZ seem like they're not integrated into the culture there.

You can always have friendly chats with neighbors despite having different cultures. Almost everyone speaks English, even if it's not their first language. The US, and most countries, have always been about different cultures and language within their borders.

Lots of countries have different language and cultural groups. I can think of many European nations (Belgium, Switzerland, Spain are big ones). I can think of lots of African nations. Same with Asian. Some countries don't even have a majority group with the same language (see India). You're just trying to manufacture a divisive issue when it really shouldn't be one.

 

[CanOWorms]

Even a neutered Europe is still a Juggernaut compared to their neighbors [minus Russia]. Africa is weak, the Middle East is weak,

Perhaps, but for how long? Many of their neighbors were devastated for centuries by European colonialism and have started to recover when they were able to fight off European domination.

India and Pakistan could be dominated by Europe if the Europeans wanted to.

I doubt it. I think that Europe can be dominated by countries on par with India, Pakistan, Brazil, etc. or at least in the near future. Those countries are on the rise while Europe is on the decline. They are ripe for switching places in the world pecking order.

The world stage is dominated by Europeans and their [European descended] proxy countries around the world...Which is the US, Canada, and Australia.

The US is not European descended. We fought to be free of Europe. We created a new society, a new civilization separate from Europe and European ideals. Look at our president today - a man who doesn't identify strongly with his part supposedly European background, a man who considers himself to be a Pacific President, and a man who considers the US to be a Pacific nation instead, looking towards Asia rather than Europe. And most Americans believe that the future of the US is with Asia rather than Europe.

Europe + "European descended" countries don't dominate the world. They don't dominate in military, cultural, economic, or even moral power.

Also, seriously... the world is dominated by help from Canada? LOL

Of course China is probably going to change that in time, they atleast have their shit together, the same cant be said for Africa,the Muslim world, latin America or India..Those regions are all a total mess by most any standard.

Africa and the Muslim world will likely be rising due to demographics and less European interference due to their economic malaise. Latin America (especially Brazil) and India seem to be much of a less than Europe and are part of the future.

 

[PingviN]

*double*

 

[PingviN]

[...]I think[...]

No you don't. You get a C- for trying.

 

[CanOWorms]

No you don't. You get a C- for trying.

You get an F for double posting. :whiste:

 

[peonyu]

Perhaps, but for how long? Many of their neighbors were devastated for centuries by European colonialism and have started to recover when they were able to fight off European domination.



I doubt it. I think that Europe can be dominated by countries on par with India, Pakistan, Brazil, etc. or at least in the near future. Those countries are on the rise while Europe is on the decline. They are ripe for switching places in the world pecking order.



The US is not European descended. We fought to be free of Europe. We created a new society, a new civilization separate from Europe and European ideals. Look at our president today - a man who doesn't identify strongly with his part supposedly European background, a man who considers himself to be a Pacific President, and a man who considers the US to be a Pacific nation instead, looking towards Asia rather than Europe. And most Americans believe that the future of the US is with Asia rather than Europe.

Europe + "European descended" countries don't dominate the world. They don't dominate in military, cultural, economic, or even moral power.

Also, seriously... the world is dominated by help from Canada? LOL



Africa and the Muslim world will likely be rising due to demographics and less European interference due to their economic malaise. Latin America (especially Brazil) and India seem to be much of a less than Europe and are part of the future.

The US is Euro-Centric, so is Canada, Australia and some other countries. Its not stretching things at all to say that is the case. With immigration its changing and we are becoming more "Latin American" centric or Asian centric, but this country has received most of its culture from Europe via immigration.

 

[Broheim]

you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

the US is in fact VERY united.
i was born in NY state, but my allegiance is to the United States, not New York.
my family has been in the US for 3 generations and we've freely moved between states multiple times. there is no concept of loyalty to a state with us, and with most US citizens I assume.
the country comes first and foremost, then state/local govt.

can you say the same about the EU ? or does your country come first?
from the current events in europe, it seems most people only care about their country and couldn't give a shit about the rest of the EU.

and the cultural differences are because of all the immigration (mostly illegal central/south american) that has happened in the past 2 decades.

he was talking about culture and legal differences, what flag you pledge allegiance to is irrelevant.

 

[CanOWorms]

The US is Euro-Centric, so is Canada, Australia and some other countries. Its not stretching things at all to say that is the case. With immigration its changing and we are becoming more "Latin American" centric or Asian centric, but this country has received most of its culture from Europe via immigration.

The US is not Euro-Centric nor is it European descended. The only reason people say that is because of racial reasons. But culture is separate from race. Certain parts of our culture certainly came from Europe just like they came from Africa (or anywhere else) or are indigenous, but it is not European descended.

Most of our culture does not come from Europe. You seem to suggest it's so because of racial reasons. But many of those people came to the US because they were rejected by mainstream Europeans and came to the US to create or participate in a new culture.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

he was talking about culture and legal differences, what flag you pledge allegiance to is irrelevant.

and he's still wrong.
the only cultural differences there are exist because of all the hispanics and other immigrants here.

our laws are for the most part similar state to state, with the US constitution being the lowest common denominator.

i don't even how you can begin to compare cultural/legal differences to say greece and spain.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Leaving aside the obvious trolls...
The move towards a united Europe has been consistent in the past two centuries, in spite flares of nationalism and wars. Read books like "From Vienna to Versailles", get acquainted with Fernand Braudel's "long duration", and then look at things from an objective point of view.

Many moons ago, I used to work for the European Commission; you have no idea how strong this organization can be, after growing slowly over 50 years. Nationalism, xenophobia and cultural self-absorption are on the wane, despite what the media would like you to believe ("hey, if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead!")... Even the most stalwart, foaming-at-the-mouth rabble-rousers have figured out by now that nation-states are becoming less and less important; it's superstatal organizations (i.e., blocks of countries) that have the best chances of surviving in this brave new world.

Yes, there will always be stereotypes, dissing and condescension. Just like everywhere else. Like the Han vs the Manchu and the Uighurs in China, like the yankees making fun of Southerners in the U.S., like the Sikhs and the Hindus in India... This, too, shall pass, sooner or later.

 

[hal2kilo]

you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

the US is in fact VERY united.
i was born in NY state, but my allegiance is to the United States, not New York.
my family has been in the US for 3 generations and we've freely moved between states multiple times. there is no concept of loyalty to a state with us, and with most US citizens I assume.
the country comes first and foremost, then state/local govt.

can you say the same about the EU ? or does your country come first?
from the current events in europe, it seems most people only care about their country and couldn't give a shit about the rest of the EU.

and the cultural differences are because of all the immigration (mostly illegal central/south american) that has happened in the past 2 decades.

I think there's an exception for Texans.

 

[CanOWorms]

and he's still wrong.
the only cultural differences there are exist because of all the hispanics and other immigrants here.

our laws are for the most part similar state to state, with the US constitution being the lowest common denominator.

i don't even how you can begin to compare cultural/legal differences to say greece and spain.

They seem pretty similar to me. It's a very subjective thing.

 

[bpatters69]

the EU is really no different than the US, you guys have very different cultures and laws depending on which state or even where in a state you are, why are we doomed because of it and you are not?

I thought about the US before I posted my answer but the difference is that the US was founded on some common principals and goals. We also had a common oppressor at the time which happened to be England. Everyone who came to the US was basically an immigrant but the advent of an open, religiously tolerant society attracted people from all over Europe. I get what you are saying though in that each state has its own agenda and sub-culture for lack of a better term. Heck, Texas has tried to cede how many times?

Compare that to each EU country which have been recognized countries for hundreds of years vs the US. I have an English friend who constantly reminds me that he has buildings, fences, etc that are twice as old as the US. With such a long history comes a lone lineage of culture, alliances, enemies, etc. which is very different than the states of the US.

 

[Infohawk]

It's funny how you get Europeans and Americans always acting like their continent's doing so much better economically than the other. The economies are largely the same. Both have to deal with increasing fiscal problems. But...

the EU is really no different than the US, you guys have very different cultures and laws depending on which state or even where in a state you are, why are we doomed because of it and you are not?

In this case, the US is different in that it has one fiscal policy. That's a pretty big deal for the Euro (the EU in its basic forms is safe IMO). There's a downside to the US model too though. All the states can fail together due to inflation or what not.

Edit: And of course canoftroll has sidetracked yet another Europe thread.